posted May 16, 2013 12:01 AM            

quote:

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Either way it is suicide…physically or emotionally…

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Hmmmm...we all have to die, and we're all slowly moving towards our death anyways, but to hasten it is to give up, in my opinion. And giving up was never favoured in this Leo Mars' opinion. At best, I see it as pitiable, at worst I feel condescending and contemptible - after all, I've seen mice escape traps...!

posted May 16, 2013 12:19 AM            

Had a serious problem with that impulse, it was a binary nature I had:

Failure in relationships was not acceptable, if that meant playing Russian Roulette or wrapping a car around a power pole going 100 mph, eh, such is failure's cost.

Spin a revolver long enough playing roulette one learns to feel the weight of the cylinder when it spins.

Times were very different then, I learned that failure, is self imposed, YOU get to see things for yourself, w/o the rules society tells you "matter".

I write this not directed at you Hippiechick, there are young people with issues that will google this stuff and I'd prefer they not learn the hard way.

Life is far more beautiful then what "We" are told, it really is.

posted May 16, 2013 09:14 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lexxigramer:
When quality of life tips too far into little to no quality and odds are things will not get better;
and more suffering and being a burden to others;
yeah;
thoughts of suicide become more frequent.
I totally understand why people kill themselves when they are on a progressive downhill slope of misery and nothing can or will fix it.
And not wanting to be a burden to others or shoved into a living hell; a nursing home.

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posted May 16, 2013 09:22 AM            

And it is an act of strength....at times I want out so bad, I never consider killing myself, like I say I am too chicken, anyway my daughters have had one parent go there...

But when I do get to those very dark places, not wanting to kill myself, but those very dark emotional places, I find myself comitting emotional suidice by choosing to sit in the pain.

Who knows where my "emotional suicide" will lead me, either to a better place or a purgatory, of sorts.

posted May 16, 2013 09:24 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by somethingexcellent:
Hmmmm...we all have to die, and we're all slowly moving towards our death anyways, but to hasten it is to give up, in my opinion. And giving up was never favoured in this Leo Mars' opinion. At best, I see it as pitiable, at worst I feel condescending and contemptible - after all, I've seen mice escape traps...!

Ps. I've personally never been there where I considered, or even felt like committing, suicide. eace:

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posted May 16, 2013 09:59 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hippichick:

)~( been pondering for a while where one gets the strength to kill onself..

Most say it is not strength, but weakenss,

I have come to disagree…..I, for one, could never do it, I am too “chicken”

Cant inflict that pain on myself…

However:

I have come to know one who takes their own life, metaphorically, like a mouse in a trap. All bug~eyed and scared, his tail is in a trap, she doesn’t know where to go…so she squiggles and squirms till he, trying to get is tail out of the painful trap, gets his head stuck and…voila~~

Such strength in squiggling and squirming to find a way out, finally a way out.

Then you have the little bug~eyed mouse, who again, finds herself in quite the dilemma.

Backed into a corner, looking for a way out.

But he chooses to just be scared, to squiggle and squirm, but to take in the pain and wait it out….

Either way it is suicide…physically or emotionally…

Pick your battles~ )~(

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I think it is the hopelessness. I think the sheer tunnel vision of the hopelessness becomes such a reality that this is one root.

Honestly, and this is not DD but I think it is demonic influences because there is a spiritual world of light and of darkness. Both are very real. The world of darkness wants to destroy all people because God loves people so much.

That is my opinion, anyway.

------------------
Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted May 16, 2013 10:14 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
I think it is the hopelessness. I think the sheer tunnel vision of the hopelessness becomes such a reality that this is one root.

Honestly, and this is not DD but I think it is demonic influences because there is a spiritual world of light and of darkness. Both are very real. The world of darkness wants to destroy all people because God loves people so much.

That is my opinion, anyway.

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This is an interesting thought.

Have it considered it before, not just for those in the deep throws of darkness, but in life in general.

I think in this 3d world, we are here to experience good and evil, it is up to us humans to differentiate and follow the light.

posted May 16, 2013 10:33 AM            

from experience... it is cowardice and selfishness in most cases.

the only somewhat "exception" I would make is for a dignified death, assisted suicide/euthanasia. After living through so much as one has at the point that you would come to make this painful decision, leaving everything behind, to me, would require enormous strength and determination...

But, no... nobody can tell me the people I've lost to suicide were strong. They were stubborn, silly, and selfish. I was too once upon a time, so I should somewhat know...

If you view it as a mousetrap, then...

the only place you'll find it is in their mind at that time.

It takes more strength, more courage, more thought, and more spirit to free yourself from your mental agony than anything the physical world can present you with. If a person is unwilling to see that they've created the trap (or cycle), that they've become predisposed to dwelling there with them through all their stubbornness, their rituals of self-defeat, self-torture... that person will succumb... it is foolish, and weak, and takes only a trivial amount of effort. The body itself will fight against death to the bitter end, no matter what, the mind calls the shots up until that point, and then self preservation sets in (anything that isn't instantaneous will lead to this battle)... if they can't control their own mind... how are they strong? (get me?)

It doesn't take courage to get yourself 9 sheets to the wind in the dead of winter and expose yourself to the elements in a graveyard, that's just stupidity... leaving behind a two year old and newborn, a young bride, two nephews, two siblings, your mother, your friends... it takes courage to face your troubles like a man, it takes courage to ask for help, it takes strength to say no to the bottle, it takes strength to pick yourself up, to drag your bottom home...

It isn't strength to repeatedly try to escape from a secure and lucrative career, a loving supportive family, an eight year old daughter, all because of a silly love hangup, throwing away not just your future, but theirs, at the young age of 26... that's not strength, it's a waste... walking into the woods some 100 meters and putting a gun to your head... refusing to call a hotline, see your doctors, refusing to take any medication (or taking it properly), and firing a single bullet... no... that took you a half an hour... it took your dad 15 minutes to find you (rescue workers 5 minutes to get there), and will take him the rest of his life to forgive himself, you selfish f-ck! And, your daughter... and me. That blood is on our hands too now.

~no... I don't see strength or courage, or wisdom... the girl in the bathroom who just downed another oxycotin, and two more ativan... she's doing poorly in school, her parents are well to do, owners of a local and well loved pizzaria... friend since preschool... she felt left behind, so she takes another set of tablets, a few shots of liquor later... someone finally finds her... they call paramedics, she's already gone. 300 people come to her funeral, mostly students. They have to live everyday without her, with knowing nobody was there for her, but they would have and could have... it's that easy though... you swallow a few pills, wait a lil while... sure... your out, not in anyone's hair anymore, no more rat race, but what about the people you leave behind who you thought you were thinking about all that while? How has that eased their burden? Not caring... fine. Selfish...

How about a nice young man, 14 years, great grades, amazing social circle... the hardest thing he did was write a suicide note for his parents to know it wasn't their fault... then he blew his brains out all over their attic.

???

You're 14... life is hard??? lol really?

People who take the easy way out, are doing just that... 9 times out of 10, they're escaping some half-imagined, often very temporary problem (mountain out of molehills), instead of addressing the cause, instead of seeking help, or taking action to combat them on their own... there is a reason it is called "the easy way out" after all.

Sure, not everyone can pull the trigger... our bodies our minds - they're geared toward preserving our lives, survival (biological science supports the will for survival being greater, which is why so many attempts fail)... but, those who can, will, those who can't, may try... it really is the path of less resistance either way... for whatever reason, the person attempting the suicide is waving a white flag... if only in their head. They aren't being rational, they aren't being strong... I've never met another who attempted suicide and walked away (obviously) that said, "I was so f-g ballsy, you should have seen me drive my car into that wall, man! I was doing 120!! Bet you happy folks can't do that!" More often, you do hear... "what was I thinking, I was a coward/a fool/I wasn't thinking clearly/I wasn't myself/I should have thought of my (loved one/friend/future)..."

if the dead could speak... I'm pretty sure a lot of the younger ones at least, would say... "dude, I missed out because of.... that?!" followed by a string of "Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!"

But, the dead cannot speak, the survivors can... sure... victims they leave behind can... but, I've yet to meet a survivor who felt what they did was a sign of strength over the average person... the average person, happy or bitter that strives through life's little hurdles, and all the chaos... are way stronger than those who have survived their self-sabotage disasters. I get absolutely disgusted thinking of my father's friend hanging from his noose, a week later... he lost his mother and couldn't go on... do I feel sorry for him, sure. But, I feel more sorry for his daughter, I feel more sorry for his family and friends... my father breaking down over their 20 year friendship, again... having to live the rest of his days wondering why his childhood friend couldn't come to him and talk, and work things through... victims left behind are the strongest by far. And, ftr... hanging yourself is probably the worst way to go. There's no mind-bleach strong enough to erase the memory of someones throat scratched out by their own hands and eyes protruding from the sockets. Morbid? Sure, but that's what happens...

No~ I just can't reason, how it would be stronger... or how it takes a stronger person to kill themselves than to make a change, to live, to endure.

enduring may be painful... but, the pain is rewarding, the pain is temporary, it waxes and wanes, it is not constant... it can be met and dealt with, and it can be overcome... if only the mind of the attempting individual stopped seeing it all as some nasty rat race, and (as you compared it) mousetrap... then, they'd be open to opportunity, change, excitement, fun... living... thankfulness.

sometimes living is scarier than dying... that I can get... but, cannot rationalize death taking a stronger spirit, or mind. Any dimwit can kill themselves, (most dimwits do get themselves killed purposely or not... *drunk driving, lethal mistakes/error in judgement, and the like)~ so when it requires less than half a brain to accomplish something, I tend to see it as a weaker motivation, and weaker solution... not stronger.

Not being able to kill yourself, that's great... it means you have a very strong will to live, a desire, and a more rational and more selfless mind and heart... that's not a bad thing, and that takes courage and strength and wisdom, imho. ~^^~

~sorry if I sound a tad bitter... I don't mean any offense. I've just lived a life with a lot of opportunity to be close to those who attempt, attempted, succeeded, or where effected by suicide of someone, as well as being in their shoes, in their mind (trap). I've got a right to be bitter toward the wastefulness and absolute selfishness of these actions. Just because things have been bad, gotten worse, keep happening... isn't a good enough reason to jump overboard. It's just not.

I don't like seeing people suffer, believe me I don't (it's the hardest part of nursing/medical work, right). But, I also don't think death by suicide should be glamorized or exploited or condoned... if the person has a terminal illness, if they are truly near the end, and all other options for a healthy (not merely enjoyable) survival have been exhausted... a dignified death, should be considered, death can be merciful at times... but, shouldn't be forced and shouldn't be looked upon as a savory option for all and any situation... it really doesn't take much in most suicide cases, and most suicides in the West seem to fall between teenage and middle age years (f-teens/m-middle aged leading in the statistics), there's so much more living to be done after that time frame, it really is a waste. It's like watching a really great movie but only halfway through, you reach that pivotal moment where one of the main characters is offed or something dramatic/tragic happens, but then you throw out the tv, cross your arms and wallow in anguish for the turn of events without seeing what has yet to happen, just determining for yourself it is all going to end terrible, the ending isn't worth seeing through no matter that it actually ends beautifully. Kinda' like watching Bambi just until his mother is struck, or Land Before Time just until Littlefoot's mother passes on in that teary scene with the last treestar. lol Well something like that... most people can't and won't realize how trivial their problem is at the time because they're blinded by it, they're stubborn, and they're too self absorbed to even notice there are others around them who share their suffering, have suffered greater, or are suffering as well.

(Wrote this last night just after it was posted~ but t'was too late to post at that time)

I understand exactly what SE has said, and I don't find what he said judgmental in the least. And, what Padre has said about the "corner" being all about perception... that's how I see it as well, all these years later. It's in your head, and the only way out is to remove the root cause, not destroying the body, removing yourself from existence... cutting off your nose to spite your face is a silly thing to do, just wrong. (As for emotional suicide, it also goes back to sorting through the cause of that cycle, whatever has gotten one into that frame of mind. Recognizing there is a problem there that could be addressed and can be treated, solved, that's the best way to handle such pessimistic moods/thoughts/feelings.)

~Children have tantrums, they're miserable, life sucks, you depend on everyone around you all the time... yaddayaddayadda - so they ought to just give up too, right? No, of course not! We want children to live, we know they haven't even gotten a taste of the world yet, we know they're being selfish, we know they want attention and affection... because we are adults, doesn't mean that stops. We still have more living to do, we still have needs for attention and affection and appreciation and joy, and pain, and to live (truly live) for ourselves, to learn, to grow... suicidal folks... are like young children (most of the time), they are having a tantrum, blowing things out of proportion, admitting defeat before the match is over, crying out for sympathy, support, feeling helpless, wanting things to go just their way and getting peeved when it doesn't, demanding more of themselves and/or others instead of taking action (trying anything), instead of asking for help, they're scared like children, they don't want to face darkness in their life or mind, darkness only makes these tantrums worse, these sadnesses... that's how I see things...

We're all children at times... lol
Suicide (suicidal thought) makes you revert to being a 5 year old (in many ways). Sorry~ just my observation.

Not directing anything at anybody in specific here~ and again, sorry for if the tone comes out harsh, not meaning it to be that way, honest. Just a sensitive topic for sure, hippi~ <3

*sorry for length/broken writing (thought pattern) w/ all those lovely late night errors and slight rantiness of it all* *sigh* >.<; I need a coffee before I can even think to edit though~ argh... c'est la vie.

~tc

posted May 16, 2013 10:50 AM            

Never met a survivor a victim that has seen it as a sign of strength?

Then meet me.

Not a sign of spiritual strength, nor personal strenght, put strength in carrying out one's decision.

Again I respect that decision.

Thank god my kid's dad did it the way he did cause at the hands of terrific emotional abuse, for years, he could have easily taken me and them with him....

I will never call one cowardly, etc, cause we can not ever imagine what is in the head of the individual that opts out.

Till we are there, then we are dead and nobody will ever really know.

It is a well known fact that if somebody really wants to kill themself they will, eventually succeed and there is no stopping them.

Now this is different than the pitifull cries for help, the fakers as I sometimes call them, take a bottle of pills and call 911.

There is a huge difference.

In your many cited examples, there were alot of cries for help which, eventually did lead to the act.

posted May 16, 2013 10:57 AM            

Never met a survivor a victim that has seen it as a sign of strength?

Then meet me.

Not a sign of spiritual strength, nor personal strenght, put strength in carrying out one's decision.

Again I respect that decision.

Thank god my kid's dad did it the way he did cause at the hands of terrific emotional abuse, for years, he could have easily taken me and them with him....

I will never call one cowardly, etc, cause we can not ever imagine what is in the head of the individual that opts out.

Till we are there, then we are dead and nobody will ever really know.

It is a well known fact that if somebody really wants to kill themself they will, eventually succeed and there is no stopping them.

Now this is different than the pitifull cries for help, the fakers as I sometimes call them, take a bottle of pills and call 911.

There is a huge difference.

In your many cited examples, there were alot of cries for help which, eventually did lead to the act.

posted May 16, 2013 10:58 AM            

Who is to say what is correct for one person vs another?

posted May 16, 2013 12:12 PM            

but sometimes people are really that alone and the only people they meet are horrible bullies (who i agree are from the darkness)

look at all those stories of kids suicide, like a really young one 10 or 11 can't remember in Australia a few weeks ago...it all started because she stood up for another girl getting bullied.
If one thing seems like the sweetest of souls succumb while the horrible one's survive.....but then if we do the "dark" vs "light", it make sense. Evilness will always target the most pure of all souls, as these are the easiest to spot because of their inner light.

So no, i don't think those who try it are 'cowards' but i won't glorify it and say it's brave either....the bravest are those who bear out the worst periods even if on their own in a hole ten meters deep under the ground....as for the people who cause others to do this in the first place, well the universe has a funny way of returning things to those who send them out.

posted May 16, 2013 01:30 PM            

I have experienced suicide in this life and never did I think it took strength to toss everything away so carelessly. Euthanasia is one thing, but when you cease to care about what will happen to the people important to you, well...that's weakness. Giving up the battle. Even in Christianity, it falls under a mortal sin; sloth, of not enjoying the gift of life from God Almighty. But I guess being numb enough to want to die is death enough, the physical is the last step...

posted May 16, 2013 02:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by somethingexcellent:
Talking about gifted readers, suicide sets your karma back and you carry the entire load of that life into the next. So while we all did it at one point, it wasn't a good decision, karmically (if that's even a word lmfao!)

I have experienced suicide in this life and never did I think it took strength to toss everything away so carelessly. Euthanasia is one thing, but when you cease[b] to care about what will happen to the people important to you, well...that's weakness. Giving up the battle. Even in Christianity, it falls under a mortal sin; sloth, of not enjoying the gift of life from God Almighty. But I guess being numb enough to want to die is death enough, the physical is the last step...

Ahem; I'm opposed to suicide, though like I said, euthanasia is another matter.[/B]

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lol i think we are all opposed to suicide. Yes some people who do it just to get attention put me off to...

posted May 16, 2013 06:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by somethingexcellent:
Talking about gifted readers, suicide sets your karma back and you carry the entire load of that life into the next. So while we all did it at one point, it wasn't a good decision, karmically (if that's even a word lmfao!)

I have experienced suicide in this life and never did I think it took strength to toss everything away so carelessly. Euthanasia is one thing, but when you cease to care about what will happen to the people important to you, well...that's weakness. Giving up the battle. Even in Christianity, it falls under a mortal sin; sloth, of not enjoying the gift of life from God Almighty. But I guess being numb enough to want to die is death enough, the physical is the last step...

Ahem; I'm opposed to suicide, though like I said, euthanasia is another matter.

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Thank you for your opinion, again.

Again, I will have to reiterate, nobody knows what goes through the mind of the individual that does succeed. Nobody, cept that individual, who is dead.

And, again, respectfully, nobody knows what the choice does karmically, spiritually, etc...

Nobody knows, nobody, cept those who have chosen that path, and, again I respect their path to have chosen.

And really, what is the difference between "suicide" and euthanasia?

Age, illness...?

Illness exists in the mind as well as the body.

posted May 16, 2013 06:37 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SaturnineMoth:
How about a nice young man, 14 years, great grades, amazing social circle... the hardest thing he did was write a suicide note for his parents to know it wasn't their fault... then he blew his brains out all over their attic.

???

You're 14... life is hard??? lol really?

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Yes. Granted, a great many should not be fooled into thinking those are the best years of their life and should be made aware that it does get better for many once they're adults and have control over their own lives, and if they can be convinced of that then it can give them the strength to resist the despair of being a kid (and had I access to the net when I was 16 and read all the boomer drivel of how easy kids have it, and believed life was only going to get worse after high school, I would've killed myself, no question, luckily I was spared such boomer drivel).

That aside, did he give a reason why life was hard? I'm curious.

posted May 16, 2013 06:50 PM            

"I know that when one door closes another always opens...but man, these hallways are a ***** !"

to hippichick.... and all Friends here--

When you have a good Heart:
You help too much.
You trust too much.
You give too much.
You love too much.
And it always seems
...YOU hurt the most {{ }}

posted May 16, 2013 07:16 PM            

quote:

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hippichick: Thank you for your opinion, again.

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Ya sure, I hope it doesn't come across as attacking anyone or whateva.

quote:

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And really, what is the difference between "suicide" and euthanasia?

Age, illness...?

Illness exists in the mind as well as the body.

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Suicide is killing yourself for whatever reason while euthanasia is an end to terminal and nonrecoverable suffering. Illness of the mind, like the body, can often be overcome, and so long as that glimmer of hope and possibility exists, continue moving towards it, trying and fighting to succeed! (How fiery of me to say)

If every option has been exhausted and help from others can do nothing, then euthanasia might be an appropriate choice. Suicide is often spur of the moment, that instant when the person is breaking and not thinking right. To make a good choice, I feel someone should be right of mind, and that includes not high stress caused by emotional or mental turmoil.

posted May 16, 2013 10:50 PM            

it didnt come out right. as usual.

it's such a big traumatic mess. Please don't judge people who might feel this way. ....especially if you have never been there. It's awful and they need more understanding, not the typical cliches that people like to dish out. Especially people who've come from great families and really have no idea.

posted May 16, 2013 11:05 PM            

quote:

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You're 14... life is hard??? lol really?

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Youre a nice girl SMoth, but yes, some 14 year olds do have a life so hard that they would wish to be dead. And it's serious - should be taken seriously and not mocked.

Not everyone grows up with a supportive or healthy family system. I can totally understand why a young teen would feel that way, especially if they were being bullied. But even if they werent, and just had a ****** , abusive homelife, that in itself is enough.

Sure, they don't have mortgages to worry about, or car payments, or this and that that many adults do, but many of them are abused and would really rather not live. It's the most awful place to be in as a young person, especially.

Worse than feeling that way as an adult. Because when you are younger, you are even more powerless.