posted July 26, 2013 01:25 PM            

Let me begin with cigarettes. We all know the studies and the consequences. We know the cost on society.

The guy is free to do as he chooses and he makes his own conscious choices. Whatever benefit and costs are his own.

It's when there's a cost on society and I pay for his rehab with my tax dollars that gets me going.

And now I have to show sympathy for the guy when he needs a lung transplant?

That's cigarettes, which is perfectly legal. Don't get me started with illegal behavior.

posted July 26, 2013 01:49 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
Since you are all addressing me, I will speak up.

Let me begin with cigarettes. We all know the studies and the consequences. We know the cost on society.

The guy is free to do as he chooses and he makes his own conscious choices. Whatever benefit and costs are his own.

It's when there's a cost on society and I pay for his rehab with my tax dollars that gets me going.

And now I have to show sympathy for the guy when he needs a lung transplant?

That's cigarettes, which is perfectly legal. Don't get me started with illegal behavior.[/B]

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LOL funny guy for the "addressing me" part...yes cigarettes is another thing that gets me 'going' on these subjects.

I know some people who are seriously like walking chimneys. When i tell them to stop smoking without elaborating they tell me it's their life and health and free to blablabla...to which i elaborate "okay then fine, kill yourself but away from me, i'm happy with my lungs as they are!"

It isn't fair when all society has to pay for a drug addicts behavior. But don't think of it as paying for them...more like for doing something about it so that our families and the people we love are protected. It is an epidemic this thing.

also everything is a business these days, so whichever country you are in and from you are paying for something completely irrelevant to you, that is of no use to anyone in any foreseeable future. At least with this, it is kind of trying to take something back, or put some members of society back on the right track, so that they are contributing members one's again...and if more people are like that, then maybe we won't have to pay so much taxes when the burden is shared...(yes i laughed to, at myself when i wrote that ...but still)

Jail isn't an answer for these things, the way it's run in some places it just is a business to ensure that the addict gets out and is back to their 'old ways'...put them in a place that educates them or gives them a skill so they pay their dues back to the society that helped them, and things may start becoming okay once again, for some places....or so how i see it.

posted July 26, 2013 02:04 PM            

I have compassion for people who go through a lot of emotional pain everyday but struggle silently and honorably to make their life a success. Because these people don't have addictions society take their emotional strength for granted.

posted July 26, 2013 02:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Jessica2407:

I have compassion for people who go through a lot of emotional pain everyday but struggle silently and honorably to make their life a success. Because these people don't have addictions society take their emotional strength for granted.

[/B]

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Also maybe this is the virgo stelluim in me speaking, if the community/country we live in, is also to thrive, and be a good place for us and our children to live...sometimes we have no choice but to clean other people's mess.

Also agree not fair, that there is no help for those who suffer in silence. These people should be our priority, and believe me in my daily life i try to find them, though not always so successfully.

posted July 26, 2013 05:28 PM            

I blame this on ignorance for the most part. I can't tolerate ignorance even if its in the form of an "opinion", and I will speak up when it's being spewed about like acid. We all knew what she meant.. I've already said what I had to, and if you don't like it than tough. Notice my lack of insults and derogatory language children.

It's easy to tell someone to sort their life, but you need to understand addiction is a corrosive disease. Would you gawk at someone who was HIV positive because of the choices they made?

It's just sad when someone is so self destructive, and wanting to escape reality.

posted July 26, 2013 05:37 PM            

Yet i don't hold a grudge against anyone, hence my replies, about trying to know what to do if you ever met one, or how to make sure that the 'surroundings' take control, and put this person on the 'normal' track once again, rather than let them destroy their 'surroundings' as what happened with the ppl i know.

posted July 26, 2013 05:53 PM            

Having compassion for someone isn't enabling, most addicts usually feel alone in this world.

Being supportive is the only way you can help an addict.
I don't have a problem being that rock, I'm not an emotional sponge. I can clean up vomit with out crying.

That's all I'm going to say about this.
I'll continue this argument after you've experienced this first hand.

posted July 26, 2013 06:22 PM            

Kero is right that compassion and enabling are two different things. That's what I liked about that show, they would also send the family of the addict to the Betty Ford clinic to learn how to healthily deal and not enable or have a co-dependent relationship anymore. They educated them on the addict mind and how it works and help them overcome some sadness/anger etc. about it.

Wanted to share info I came across on a different tv show. I think it was Anderson Cooper, he's been on Dr. Phil as well, you can see videos at the link.

The people coming out of this center have an extremely low relapse rate, because they do somethng that most don't which is address and treat the underlying biochemical cause of the addiction and rebalance the brain chemistry.

quote:

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....research uncovered the reason addiction is a neurobiological and biochemical disorder. It’s about brain chemistry! Florida Detox® addresses brain chemistry issues with its Scientific Addiction Treatment. Doctors will normalize brain chemistry in addicted patients so they no longer crave the biochemical effect of their medication. This stops their cravings making it easier for our patients to avoid relapse.
....

When we properly diagnose addicted patients with this personality profile, we optimize their brain chemistry and their brain function. We not only stop their biochemical drug craving, they enjoy a better quality of life. Their relationships improve and they become much more efficient in the work place, those who own their own business, often double their productivity within three months of our treatment.

Neurotoxicity

If you have acquired an excessive level of toxins in your brain, a phenomenon called neurotoxicity, you may be using drugs to calm overactive brain regions. Florida Detox® research has proven that most addicted patients suffer from neurotoxicity which causes an over electrified brain. If you are neurotoxic, your brain scan would look like the toxic brain scan seen below and you would crave opiate medications like OxyContin and/or drugs like Xanax and Klonopin to calm your anxious brain. You might also like the calming effect of alcohol.
At Florida Detox®, our Brain and Body Wellness Program not only prevents relapse, it also reverses years of aging caused by drug addiction and alcoholism. Many patients look and feel 10 years younger by the time they leave Florida Detox®.

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full can be read at the link

There are a ton of interesting articles there by clicking on the specific disease you can understand a lot more.

And they also treat people with Mold Toxicity and Lyme disease and those who'v had brain trauma.

You can see lots of vids there too.
http://floridadetox.com/

Detox programs for just about everything and

Wellness programs for:

posted July 26, 2013 06:31 PM            

quote:

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Todd relapsed through 44 alcohol rehab programs. He binged alcohol for 32 years between age 12 and age 44. Todd had failed “the best” alcohol rehabs in America because rehab doctors failed to diagnose his inherited brain chemistry deficiencies. Todd spent over $900,000 on alcohol treatment.

Todd presented to Florida Detox® in February, 2009. He came in a wheelchair, he could not walk. We stopped Todd’s craving for alcohol and pain pills.

We treated over 60 hormonal, nutritional and brain chemical deficiencies in Todd. Prior to our scientific alcohol treatment, Todd had never abstained from drugs or alcohol more than five days in 32 years. He also stopped drinking 42 cups of coffee a day and has reduced his cigarette consumption from sixty a day to six.

Todd is active in AA and frequently brings other alcoholic patients to our clinic for help. Here are a few testimonials from those patients.

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quote:

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ennifer’s Story:
Jennifer is a 54-year old nurse who relapsed to alcohol just four days after leaving an Arizona rehab center where she spent 28 days and $46,000.
Before age 50, Jennifer drank just one glass of wine with dinner, it was a social drink, not medication. After Jennifer entered menopause, she suddenly needed alcohol to “quiet her anxious brain. Estradiol modulates the function of two important brain chemicals, serotonin and dopamine.Jennifer’s 4 years of drinking alcohol caused severe serotonin and taurine deficiencies and her excessive histamine levels were causing excessive electrical activity throughout her brain.
Jennifer’s brain chemistry analysis reveals a classic pattern Dr. Rick Sponaugle observes in all of his alcoholic patients. Dr. Rick Sponaugle’s research in alcoholic patients like Jennifer has proven they develop severe deficiencies of serotonin and taurine, two calming brain chemicals and, excessive levels of histamine, an excitatory brain chemical.
The Arizona rehab center had just incorporated SPECT brain imaging into their addiction treatment.

Dr. Rick Sponaugle has used SPECT imaging in alcoholics since 2005. Dr. Rick Sponaugle’s staff advised Jennifer that she should bring her SPECT scan to her first appointment at Florida Detox® & Wellness Institute.

Jennifer’s Brain Scan (surface)

The holes seen at the top of Jennifer’s surface scan represent a localized dopamine deficiency which causes sub normal activity in her brain’s prefrontal cortex, the brain region behind her forehead. This finding on Jennifer’s scan matches her inherited personality profile, one that was over shadowed by changes in personality when she entered menopause.

Jennifer’s localized dopamine deficiency is derived from inheriting a gene that produces a super COMT enzyme, an enzyme that metabolizes or breaks down dopamine four times faster than normal.

Patients who inherit a “super COMT enzyme” metabolize Dopamine before it can activate sequential brain cells in the prefrontal cortex. The holes represent “a string of light bulbs” that have failed to activate.

Jennifer’s SPECT scan is called a deep scan. The white and red oval in the middle of Jennifer’s scan represents her severely overactive deep limbic system.

full at the link

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http://floridadetox.com/alcohol-treatment-alcohol-detox-outpatient-alcohol-detox/

posted July 26, 2013 10:36 PM            

We've been through the abuse.
We've been through being driven around by people under the influence. We've (especially in the case of my husband) been horribly abused by people under the influence.

I'm not their rock.
He's not their rock.
My children are not their rocks.

I love the addicts in my life, but they spew harm wherever they go.

Nope.

They will not have the opportunity to even remotely do to our children what they did to us.
If this means limited contact, limited displayed sympathy, and little to no help, that's what it means.

Curse me all you want. Call me cold, uncaring, limited, ignorant.
Ok.
Your opinion on the matter makes literally no difference to me.

posted July 26, 2013 11:06 PM            

But I don't have the skill to treat her alcoholism, she'll have to get actual help from somewhere else...and I'm not going to actively enable her in the meantime, and I'd consider it grossly irresponsible of me to leave the kids & cat in my care with her (at least not more than a couple of hours and even then only as a last resort). In Mom's case I suspect her Scorpio and Pisces placements have a lot to do with her chemical dependency whereas my placements pushed me to find other ways to cope (and I don't know the specifics of Dad's chart).

posted July 26, 2013 11:58 PM            

To be clear, no one is saying you need to baby or enable these people, or even have them be a part of your life.

Becoming educated, does not mean you have to suddently accept an addict into your life. Most people are not equipped to deal with it and I would not suggest anyone doing so, especially if there are children involved.

As I mentioned, family members who have become effected by another with addiction problems, would be best advised to learn more about how to handle them, or at least the psychology that goes on there, to become better equipped to be able to lead healthy lives themselves.

I don't think anyone is saying 'feel bad and deal with them'.

Addicts can suck you dry. I have expereineced this myself. It's a fine line between slamming a door in their face and not understanding and exiting out of their life with some understanding...

does that make sense?

I've also dealt with this firsthand with parent, sibling and friends, so I know what you mean. And if I had kids, I would be looking out for them first and foremost too.

Yes, this can be a heated subject because so many of us have had to deal with it personally on some level.

Just wanted to say that I don't think anyone here is saying you should keep people in your life that are unhealthy or dangerous for you or your loved ones. Instead just presenting some food for thought and saying that not everything is as black and white as it can appear to be on this subject.

I think only professionals (ususally the ones that have been down that road - the best ones) are the ones that can get through to the addict and their family members and loved ones.

They realize how sick most of the family members are and that they are unconsciously hurting the addict more than helping, and direct them to options and educational groups that will help heal them as well.

It's all interconnected and the addict isnt an island on their own, usually. Most often they have at least one parent or sibling that is helping to enable them, thinking they are actually helping the person. It takes courage and love not to just walk away completely. Or to continue enabling them, thinking they are helping them.

posted July 27, 2013 12:08 AM            

Also, i always look forward to the end when an addict has accepted and gone to treatment to see how radcally different they look only three months later.

There is this light and clarity or sparkle in their eye that wasnt there before. They often look like completely different people.

And to hear from the parents (usually) that have also accepted treatment for themselves (not for addictions, but for how do deal with their loved one who is) and how much they have learned, changed and grown - and STOOD THEIR GROUND! and learned how what they were doing was enabling or helping the person to die. Pretty much puttng the nails in their coffin, but thinking the whole time they were helping or loving them. They learned how to cope properly too.

It's nice to see a family as a whole, heal together.

posted July 27, 2013 02:15 AM            

quote:

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Kerosene: It's easy to tell someone to sort their life, but you need to understand addiction is a corrosive disease. Would you gawk at someone who was HIV positive because of the choices they made?

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quote:

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T: The coldness/lack of compassion comes from the mindset that drug and alcohol addictions are not actual diseases, and that people have control over them, similar to how depression was scoffed at and not taken seriously by society not too long ago.

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posted July 27, 2013 05:14 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kerosene:

That's all I'm going to say about this.
[b]I'll continue this argument after you've experienced this first hand.

[/B]

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??...ok, that is you. i usually refrain from wishing these things on others, as that just presumes they've seen nothing and you're the one's who've only suffered in life..... when life usually surprises you at times. so yeah, that is you, this is me. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but this is how it came across.

But asking for sympathy for the addict, and then getting angry without a second thought when those who suffered because of them are mentioned...is very cheeky.

As i mentioned before, and rightly mentioned again. only a professional can usually help these people, and the effects can be so devastating when someone who doesn't really understand tries to be a rock or whatever.

Also read my words again, i didn't say 'throw them out to the cold' ...if you read you would notice that i suggested so many 'help' things that can be done that is for the greater good at the end of the day.

This is all what i'm saying for now, i will always put my priority as thinking of those who suffer in silence, and never did anything to hurt anyone else while at it, as these are the one's who need to know someone is out there thinking of them the most.

posted July 27, 2013 06:50 AM            

This topic is about people who are perceived as cold/lack of compassion for people with addictions . This is simple actually. Not EVERYONE reacts the same way, not EVERYONE should show compassion.You don't like it? Well tough luck.That's a cold world out there. What if there's enough coldness and hatred going on in one's life that they are incapable of handling someone's else issues?Does that mean they are cold or insensitive? People react differently depending on what's happening in their lives.

You can sensitize people all you want about heroin addicts,alcohol addicts,and other substance abuse but folks will instinctively think of protecting their own from these people because they can turn dangerous. I agree that addiction is a disease ( have studied its biology and chemistry extensively I know its effects on the human brain). A disease is a malfunction of our body system, an error that if not corrected or attended to may cause irreparable damage. People can be addicted to sugar hence they can develop diabetes. People can be addicted to junk food hence develop cholesterol that will then increase their chances to suffer a heart attack. Addictions can be in varied forms.WE ALL HAVE SOME SORT OF ADDICTION. It can be coffee, it can be tea, it can be sex, it can be lollipops, it can be diet coke, it can be chocolate. It can be ANYTHING.BECAUSE I'VE STUDIED the effects of substance abuse on the brain,I am fully aware of how drugs can mess up with the human brain. It doesn't have to make me turn into a more compassionate person or less.

While we are talking about compassion FOR the addicts, do you think an addict who is going through withdrawal symptoms will have compassion for you?They'll hesitate not to harm you because you are the father/mother of 3 kids?I think we need to have a just measure of the degree of compassion that should be allowed and the extent that we are prepare to go to help someone who is going through such addictions. I will NEVER refuse such a person's call for help, BUT I will withdraw my help should I feel am being taken advantage of OR that this person may turn dangerous towards my family. Should this person die,it will make me sad but as I said, we make our own bed and we lie in it.

FYI, I have a relative who is a PARASITE living off other people's hard earned money because he is INCAPABLE of holding onto a job due to his alcohol addiction. His child?It's the responsibility of someone's else, he isn't AWARE of how much this child is suffering because of him. I sometimes feel like taking this child away from them.Do you want me to have compassion for such lack of responsibility??

Each time when topics like this are discussed on LL,people can't take the opinions of others for what they are and they blurt out words like ''ignorance'' or adopt a condescending manner.It doesn't promote freedom of expression but instead create an atmosphere of self righteousness that I find comical and gross.Opinions are formed depending on one's own life experiences.Do you think based on the few posts a person makes on LL that gives you the right to judge/tag/label a person??

I think I've said enough of what I think on this subject.

posted July 27, 2013 09:19 AM            

When I was hypoglycemic, I did have the "choice" to not eat sugar when my whole body was screaming out for it and I was sick to my stomach and feeling totally desperate. But I would capitulate just to feel normal again.

And that was mild compared to the desperation that hardcore drug addicts face. It's almost like the question of, "Would you inform on others under torture?" Who can know the limits of their own resolve?

So, too, with the question, "Would you steal from your loved ones if you were a heroin addict?" Normally I would NEVER EVER steal from anyone. But if I were a heroin addict, I would have temporarily LOST that part of my personality, and be controlled by the torture of withdrawal to such an extent that I would do these crazy things, probably, just like most heroin addicts (who are strapped for cash) end up doing.

A friend of mine unknowingly married a heroin addict. Strange, but she was religious, sheltered, and totally naive. He wrecked her life. She can't talk about anything without looking like she is on the verge of tears (and she's a Leo!)

She divorced him, but she has no bitterness towards him. She realizes that she has to stay away from him, but all she wants is for him to be healed. And basically, everyone who knows them wants the same two things:

1) That she stays completely away from him.
2) That he will be healed.

The issues that MADE him a drug addict are extremely painful, by the way. He is escaping brutal memories when he does drugs. When he is sober, trying to deal with these things head-on, the psychic trauma just overwhelms him again.

posted July 27, 2013 09:23 AM            

'Will read up thoroughly, and watch that show, when I get a chance.

posted July 27, 2013 11:59 AM            

Of course, I put him right in his place. (With much class and dignity, always!)

A few months past and as my 6 year relationship began to dissolve, I made contact with him since he was the only one I knew of who had experienced a break up after a long term relationship (8 years), which ultimately resulted in him being placed in a psychiatric facility. The conversation resulted in a confessional of my love for him.

A month after splitting with my partner, guy #2 informed me that he was diagnosed with leukemia. After all of my friends got wiff of the situation, they two we're relentless in there approach of the situation, even though my friends experimented with drugs in the past. (I've never smoked or done drugs)

"Something like this was bound to happen living in the fast land"

"Whatever, get over this boy"

It always sounded much easier to due every time I heard it. If I ever began to talk about NN conjunct Vertex, Moon/Venus opposite Vertex, Moon opposite Saturn, Sun/Moon square NN, or a boat load of his planets in my 12th house, all my friends would like at me bewildered as they're not astrology folk.

While, from the first appearance, it would seem that I had a more difficult childhood than him which would make me more prone to have giving into drugs. It's easy as humans to judge and gauge everyone else's circumstances. And to pass judgement on individual strengths and weaknesses. I also think that people have this 'I'd never do that' or 'I'm much better/stronger/smarter/wiser than that' attitude about other people's flaws and weaknesses.

The truth of the matter is that there is never too great a burden of life that cannot cripple you.