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Author
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Topic: Debunking 6 myths about aspergers (article)
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Padre35
Knowflake Posts: 3174
From: Asheville, NC, US
Registered: Jul 2012
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posted December 21, 2013 07:05 PM
  
quote:
Originally posted by aquaguy91:
The thing with aspergers is you are pretty much damned if you do and damned if you don't. On the one hand people with aspergers are quickly condemned if we act outside the parameters of socially accepted behavior. On the other hand we are often told we don't have the condition if we speak up about it. This type of treatment doesn't exactly lead to mutual understanding nor does it help. Most people with aspergers don't want to use the condition as a crutch despite what you or others believe. We simply want people to be understanding and a little bit less judgemental towards us. People's normal reaction to social clumsiness or perceived rudeness is to hold it in and passive aggressively attack that person and say mean things about them behind their backs. I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me but suffice it to say it has happened a lot . If people could just calmly tell us that what we said was offensive or socially unacceptable we will apologize and take it as a learning experience. My dear mom or others close to me who know I have aspergers will often whisper to me or pull me aside and say. " what you said was offensive " or something along those lines and it's a lesson learned. I have learned a great deal as a result of this and I can honestly say i make a lot less social faux pauxs than I did when I was younger . While people with aspergers can improve with self reflection and help from others who will act as interpreters so to speak we will always be behind the curve when it comes to social interactions because social rules and expectations are infinite and there are so many variables to consider. As an aspie I make it my mission to learn from my mistakes when I realize I made them . This doesn't mean I suddenly do a 180 and become socially calibrated , it means I learned that it's a bad Idea to say X in Y situation. You can learn lessons like this but it's a slow process and never goes away . We still need people to be understanding and meet us halfway though .
Ugh, quick lesson AG, if I did not have love for you,I could quickly ignore you and the whole bit. It's more, at times asperger's becomes this sort of shield, or more harshly an excuse, for why things went wrong or did not work out the way one had hoped. Not so, to me it's more one has to realize at times Life gives it to you on the chin and it's tough, it also is not necessarily the asperger's..it's just life and your own personality just dealing with it. If I did not like the cut of your sail, I would not even have bothered. IP: Logged |
aquaguy91
Moderator Posts: 8472
From: tennessee
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted December 21, 2013 07:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Padre35:
 So do tell, how was/is the DSM compiled, and how disorders are recognized and how treatments are recommended? Once again, not very impressed YTA, you remind of the "dragon" in Chinese Astrology...All puff, no show
I personally don't give a sh*t how they compile it, does it really matter? There are still a lot of questions about aspergers /autism as it is a fairly new diagnosis. A lot of experts disagree on the causes of Asperger's and so forth. There's still a lot of research to be done on the matter but that doesn't mean it isn't a real condition. To conclude that it is because of these things is foolish because almost anything in the world can be doubted or argued against. So what , you may have read a bunch of material from doubters saying aspergers is a bogus diagnosis for x , y , and z reasons but there are a lot more people in the field who consider it the real deal. Again, keep in mind that most people are extremely biased and have their own agendas where stuff like this is concerned. Heck , don't know if you are aware of this but there are some brilliant (sarcasm) folks out there who believe the holocaust never happened despite all the evidence . People are going to believe what they want to believe.
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Padre35
Knowflake Posts: 3174
From: Asheville, NC, US
Registered: Jul 2012
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posted December 21, 2013 07:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by aquaguy91:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Padre35:
[b] So do tell, how was/is the DSM compiled, and how disorders are recognized and how treatments are recommended? Once again, not very impressed YTA, you remind of the "dragon" in Chinese Astrology...All puff, no show
quote:
I personally don't give a sh*t how they compile it,. [/B]
You should care AG, actually you should care deeply about how psychiatry compiles their diagnosis. If you say you have a broken leg, instead the Dr tells you that you have a broken arm, do you just go with the Dr tells b/c they are "experts"? Of course not
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aquaguy91
Moderator Posts: 8472
From: tennessee
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted December 21, 2013 07:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Padre35:
Ugh, quick lesson AG, if I did not have love for you,I could quickly ignore you and the whole bit.It's more, at times asperger's becomes this sort of shield, or more harshly an excuse, for why things went wrong or did not work out the way one had hoped. Not so, to me it's more one has to realize at times Life gives it to you on the chin and it's tough, it also is not necessarily the asperger's..it's just life and your own personality just dealing with it. If I did not like the cut of your sail, I would not even have bothered.
That's not what it is about at all, although you may mistake it for looking for an excuse. As I have already said I rarely disclose my diagnosis to people irl unless it is imperative that I do so. Only my closest friends and family know about it. Aside from them I have only discussed it online and with my boss at work. I brought it up to my boss at work so he would know better how to communicate with me and to prevent any mishaps. I wish I could openly discuss it with everyone I come into contact with but unfortunately people would perceive it as me looking for a shield. The sad thing about all of this is discussing such things is the only way to come to a mutual understanding. Just to give an example, aspergers is the reason I have such problems relating to most women . In a sense women are an aspie mans worst nightmare because they rely heavily on nonverbal communication are often less direct than men . To make matters more prickly they are typically more sensitive and tend to take things personally where no harm was meant. This is why I get so frustrated with women and may seem overly harsh on them . This is only because women have been very hard on me because I have certain problems communicating and they seem content to shun me or judge me without trying to ease misunderstandings . Of course I realize my condition isn't their fault but it doesn't make me feel any better considering how they often treat me badly because of it .
This is why I wish more people as a whole were more aware of aspergers. Not because I want my bad behavior excused, I want awareness because it creates mutual understanding. For example, my current gf is aware of aspergers because she worked with autistic kids and knows I have it . Thus she knows my limitations and knows how to communicate with me more effectively. Your average uninformed person will react with hostility when they encounter aspergers behavior and go into outright attack mode or shun the aspie person and view them as stupid, mean, stubborn, or a whole host of other negative things. People who are informed are able to realize that the person in question probably didn't mean any harm and can calmly correct their behavior. Sigh* a lot of problems in the world could be solved if people could just talk openly about things in a calm and mature manner.IP: Logged |
Padre35
Knowflake Posts: 3174
From: Asheville, NC, US
Registered: Jul 2012
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posted December 21, 2013 07:48 PM
Eh, AG, had a good dear friend with Tourette's, we used to hang out so I "know" how such things can sort of takeover situations.The crew would go on dinner break and he'd laugh uncontrollably, he tried his level best to hide b/c he knew how it looked. He had my Empathy. IP: Logged |
aquaguy91
Moderator Posts: 8472
From: tennessee
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted December 21, 2013 08:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Padre35:
Eh, AG, had a good dear friend with Tourette's, we used to hang out so I "know" how such things can sort of takeover situations.The crew would go on dinner break and he'd laugh uncontrollably, he tried his level best to hide b/c he knew how it looked. He had my Empathy.
Well for me it's not that I want people to feel bad for us and give us a free pass. It's more I want a mutual understanding . If someone understands they know better how to better communicate with me and in turn I can communicate better with them and know what they expect from me. Lack of understanding leads to what I myself and many other Aspies experience out in the world. Yes, I can relate to trying to hide away from the world too. Socializing can be a perilous venture if you are different in any way, shape, or form. I can pass for normal around people I know really well or when I'm communicating with someone for a specific purpose but spontaneous social interactions expose me. IP: Logged |
PixieJane
Moderator Posts: 3755
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted December 22, 2013 12:18 AM
quote:
Originally posted by juniperb:
It is also a hoot when one lectures me on my field of work, study and lifetime of achievement
If you happen to have professional expertise regarding Aspergers then I'd be curious what you think of the myth-busting article and what you think (or know) on how they know some of those assertions, such as how they measure empathy. IP: Logged |
Kerosene
Knowflake Posts: 8733
From: Mercury
Registered: Dec 2012
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posted December 22, 2013 12:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Padre35:
You have no idea what my qualifications are, none, I never speak of them b/c I do not feel the need, unlike some, for external validation.
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meissieri
Knowflake Posts: 796
From: The Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2013
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posted December 22, 2013 04:51 PM
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PixieJane
Moderator Posts: 3755
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted December 22, 2013 05:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by meissieri:
Also, it's a spectrum. Not everyone will act the same way. There's something that isn't talked much about, but autism is different for men and women. This was such a relief for me. Though there are many of the uncaring, doesn't-want-to-be-touched type, not all of them are like that. Some hit the other extreme: too sensitive, get attached quickly, and will do anything to please the other
I don't understand this either. The more vague you make something the more meaningless and thus arbitrary the diagnosis becomes. Even personality disorders see a difference in say Avoidant and Dependent Personality Disorders, and some of them are even divided into subtypes. IP: Logged |
PixieJane
Moderator Posts: 3755
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted December 22, 2013 05:53 PM
And just to be clear on the empathy thing: I do not subscribe to the idea that there are skilled telepaths authorized to say with certainty that someone is just as empathic, or even more so, than many other people (especially as empathy tends to rise and fall in individuals so some moments they're more so and other moments less so). I'm not saying that such empathy doesn't exist and I'm willing to entertain the notion that the assertion made is true, but I want to know HOW such a conclusion was asserted. Don't say "Because I said so." That's just an assumption, not a fact. IP: Logged |
aquaguy91
Moderator Posts: 8472
From: tennessee
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted December 22, 2013 05:53 PM
Well I personally feel empathy for others and do understand where people are coming from but it's a matter of not being able to respond appropriately. I can see someone crying and feel their pain but that may not come across in my facial expressions or what I say. The definition of empathy is the ability to feel someone's emotions and put yourself in their shoes so to speak, I can do that. But it may not come across like I can.just the other night I was working outdoors and it was extremely cold and the first thing I thought of was the homeless people in the city and how it had to suck to have nowhere to go in that type of weather. These thoughts made me extremely sad.. This is a clear example of empathy. The only thing is I can have empathy for others and feel very deeply but I don't outwardly express it like others do. I wonder how many other people on the spectrum are the exact same way. IP: Logged |
aquaguy91
Moderator Posts: 8472
From: tennessee
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted December 22, 2013 06:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PixieJane:
I don't understand this either. The more vague you make something the more meaningless and thus arbitrary the diagnosis becomes. Even personality disorders see a difference in say Avoidant and Dependent Personality Disorders, and some of them are even divided into subtypes.
But it's not vague. It's called the Autism spectrum because there's different levels of severity. You also have to take into account that people on the spectrum often have comorbid conditions that changes the way the condition presents itself . For example, a lot of people with aspergers also have OCD and are extremely organized and clean freaks. They will flip their sh*t if one little thing is out of place . On the other extreme there are other people on the spectrum who have ADD or ADHD (like myself) who are extremely disorganized and messy.IP: Logged |
PixieJane
Moderator Posts: 3755
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted December 22, 2013 07:24 PM
It sounds vague to me because you can be diagnosed with it no matter what you're like, messy or neat freak, clingy or asocial. Other symptoms includes "talks too much" to "not enough" or "easily distracted" or "too focused." The way many people, including in this thread, make it sound is you have Aspergers if you simply deviate from the norm, and I'd think even the typical audience member of the Jerry Springer show might be able to be so diagnosed. That's not a valid diagnosis in my book as it's basically a synonym for "disorder" and pathologizing everyone who doesn't fit into a well defined norm. And I can't help but notice that this makes psychiatry much more profitable in the process, one reason some diagnosis tend to become trendy. And even that motivation aside it's been proved that psychiatry can be easily fooled as it's not objective like medicine but often subjective as was shown by the famous Rosenhan experiment. And I'm reminded of this: "I don't know what you mean by 'glory'," Alice said. Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't- till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'" "But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected. "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master— that's all." IP: Logged |
aquaguy91
Moderator Posts: 8472
From: tennessee
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted December 22, 2013 08:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PixieJane:
It sounds vague to me because you can be diagnosed with it no matter what you're like, messy or neat freak, clingy or asocial. Other symptoms includes "talks too much" to "not enough" or "easily distracted" or "too focused." The way many people, including in this thread, make it sound is you have Aspergers if you simply deviate from the norm, and I'd think even the typical audience member of the Jerry Springer show might be able to be so diagnosed. That's not a valid diagnosis in my book as it's basically a synonym for "disorder" and pathologizing everyone who doesn't fit into a well defined norm. And I can't help but notice that this makes psychiatry much more profitable in the process, one reason some diagnosis tend to become trendy. And even that motivation aside it's been proved that psychiatry can be easily fooled as it's not objective like medicine but often subjective as was shown by the famous Rosenhan experiment. And I'm reminded of this: "I don't know what you mean by 'glory'," Alice said. Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't- till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'" "But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected. "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master— that's all."
No, you can't be diagnosed with it no matter what... You either fall into the spectrum or you don't. You misunderstood My references to OCD and ADHD, I was saying those are comorbid conditions that are often found in people on the spectrum. While a person with aspergers can also have OCD and be a neat freak and another person can also have ADHD and be messy and unorganized, it has nothing to do with aspergers . Those behaviors are a result of the other comorbid conditions , not aspergers.
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Padre35
Knowflake Posts: 3174
From: Asheville, NC, US
Registered: Jul 2012
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posted December 22, 2013 10:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PixieJane:
It sounds vague to me because you can be diagnosed with it no matter what you're like, messy or neat freak, clingy or asocial. Other symptoms includes "talks too much" to "not enough" or "easily distracted" or "too focused." The way many people, including in this thread, make it sound is you have Aspergers if you simply deviate from the norm, and I'd think even the typical audience member of the Jerry Springer show might be able to be so diagnosed. That's not a valid diagnosis in my book as it's basically a synonym for "disorder" and pathologizing everyone who doesn't fit into a well defined norm. And I can't help but notice that this makes psychiatry much more profitable in the process, one reason some diagnosis tend to become trendy. And even that motivation aside it's been proved that psychiatry can be easily fooled as it's not objective like medicine but often subjective as was shown by the famous Rosenhan experiment. And I'm reminded of this: "I don't know what you mean by 'glory'," Alice said. Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't- till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'" "But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected. "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master— that's all."
Pixie Jane..cannot imagine someone who is more different than I..but you nailed it, those are my thoughts as well hmm, we are seeing the same things here IP: Logged |
aquaguy91
Moderator Posts: 8472
From: tennessee
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted December 23, 2013 04:37 AM
I'm not really getting why you doubt aspergers is a legitimate diagnosis. You doubt it because there are different variations in how it can manifest itself? Well that doesn't make a whole lot of sense because there are variations in everyone and everything.IP: Logged |
PixieJane
Moderator Posts: 3755
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted December 23, 2013 09:04 AM
Sure, there are always variations, but not like with Aspergers. For example, some believe the shapeshifting lizards are after them and others the CIA (so like fireworks going off on the Fourth of July are a "secret signal the CIA is sending"), that's a variation but both are paranoid schizos. And some aren't that extreme, they just think everyone is screwing them when they can't see. But it's still an irrational persecution complex. But what if say paranoid schizophrenia ALSO included people who trust too much, think no one would wish them ill, and even look for the presents they're sure the CIA or God is leaving them. What if that were also called paranoid schizophrenia? Then it would become near meaningless. And Aspergers is even more variable than that. In case you're not understanding it the "variation" for Aspergers is too wide ranging and I think most anyone who wanted to be diagnosed with it could purchase such a diagnoses as about everyone deviates from the expected standard in 3-4 areas (and that seems enough to get diagnosed with Aspergers). Ironically, perhaps Aspergers (if a real neurological condition) is the normal human condition...after all the "perfect popular people" are the exception to the rule, most people who like them (or at least want to be them) find it much more difficult to get along with other people (and many of the popular people have described all sorts of anxiety and even loneliness despite their ascension on the social ladder, and IIRC the people at the very top of the social ladder tend to be kind but those just below them yet above everyone else tend to be known for their cruelty). Maybe it would help to explain what Apsergers is NOT. Because right now it looks to me like "Deviates slightly from the norm in a few ways or so but without requiring any form of hospitalization or guardian." (In other words, flaws, which everybody has.) And that's way too broad. IP: Logged |
aquaguy91
Moderator Posts: 8472
From: tennessee
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted December 23, 2013 10:41 AM
quote:
Originally posted by PixieJane:
Sure, there are always variations, but not like with Aspergers. For example, some believe the shapeshifting lizards are after them and others the CIA (so like fireworks going off on the Fourth of July are a "secret signal the CIA is sending"), that's a variation but both are paranoid schizos. And some aren't that extreme, they just think everyone is screwing them when they can't see. But it's still an irrational persecution complex. But what if say paranoid schizophrenia ALSO included people who trust too much, think no one would wish them ill, and even look for the presents they're sure the CIA or God is leaving them. What if that were also called paranoid schizophrenia? Then it would become near meaningless. And Aspergers is even more variable than that. In case you're not understanding it the "variation" for Aspergers is too wide ranging and I think most anyone who wanted to be diagnosed with it could purchase such a diagnoses as about everyone deviates from the expected standard in 3-4 areas (and that seems enough to get diagnosed with Aspergers). Ironically, perhaps Aspergers (if a real neurological condition) is the normal human condition...after all the "perfect popular people" are the exception to the rule, most people who like them (or at least want to be them) find it much more difficult to get along with other people (and many of the popular people have described all sorts of anxiety and even loneliness despite their ascension on the social ladder, and IIRC the people at the very top of the social ladder tend to be kind but those just below them yet above everyone else tend to be known for their cruelty). Maybe it would help to explain what Apsergers is NOT. Because right now it looks to me like "Deviates slightly from the norm in a few ways or so but without requiring any form of hospitalization or guardian." (In other words, flaws, which everybody has.) And that's way too broad.
Sorry to be blunt , but you clearly don't understand aspergers. It goes a lot deeper than being a nerd or a social outcast. Those people may be considered weird or awkward, but that doesn't mean they have aspergers. Those people may be outcasts or struggle in society for any number of reasons. When you are on the spectrum you struggle in society because your mind is fundamentally different than the average person. You have trouble because you lack understanding of basic social skills and rules, thus you in are in for a world full of misunderstandings. It affects your ability to make friends, find love, find and/or keep jobs , and even puts a serious strain on family relationships. It affects every area of life. I have made a million social faux pauxs that would make you cringe and most people with aspergers would tell you the same thing. This is because we simply have no concept of what people expect us to say or how they expect us to act or what might offend someone in any given situation. Nobody is a mind reader and everyone will make a social mistake at some point, but to do it all the time and have no concept of it unless someone points it out is not normal. The average person may not be a social whiz and know what to say or how to act in every situation , but they do have a basic understanding of what not to say. When you are on the spectrum you don't have that intuitive ability and you have to learn through tons of trial and error. For a person on the spectrum, learning social skills is a lot like a child who gets hurt when they touch a hot stove eye or a prickly bush. You learn social skills through pain and humiliation. You have to make an a** of yourself over and over and over again and you learn these lessons one by one. For example, I was out with my mom a few years ago and she went to get her haircut and when she was done I jokingly said " your hair looks awful" while her hairstylist was standing right there. I thought what I said was hilarious and had no concept that it could have been taken as offensive . I would have never considered it as such if my mom hadn't chewed me out and corrected me afterwards. I could think of a billion more such examples or worse but this exemplifies aspergers in action. We simply don't have a natural understanding of this stuff and have to learn these things on a case by case by case by case basis. I have improved a lot and have learned a lot of things but even now socializing is a chore and requires a lot of mental power and concentration on my part. Frankly it can be exhausting and a lot of times I choose to remain silent lest I open my mouth and prove that I am a fool. IP: Logged |
Faith
Knowflake Posts: 6814
From:
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted December 23, 2013 11:44 AM
I suppose it boils down to the degree of affliction and basic personality. Meissieri is an Aspie and she has what I consider a remarkable level of sensitivity and emotional intelligence. Regardes Platero was the same way. Seeing some aspies display pitch perfect social skills makes it hard to immediately grasp how other aspies struggle so much attain the same thing. Not saying the struggle isn't real. Just that to an outsider, the labels don't tell the whole story and don't suffice to explain or completely excuse odd behavior. Glad your girlfriend understands you, though. Is she the famous Miss IDK?  IP: Logged |
Faith
Knowflake Posts: 6814
From:
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted December 23, 2013 11:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by meissieri:
Some articles say they are often at risk for being in an abusive relationship or date raped. Sadly, I'm one of them (the abusive relationship part). They get manipulated easily for being that sensitive.
 Sorry to hear it. IP: Logged |
aquaguy91
Moderator Posts: 8472
From: tennessee
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted December 23, 2013 11:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
I suppose it boils down to the degree of affliction and basic personality. Meissieri is an Aspie and she has what I consider a remarkable level of sensitivity and emotional intelligence. Regardes Platero was the same way. Seeing some aspies display pitch perfect social skills makes it hard to immediately grasp how other aspies struggle so much attain the same thing. Not saying the struggle isn't real. Just that to an outsider, the labels don't tell the whole story and don'tivw suffice to explain or completely excuse odd behavior. Glad your girlfriend understands you, though. Is she the famous Miss IDK?
I wouldn't exactly say regardesplatero had good social skills. She herself said she didn't .
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meissieri
Knowflake Posts: 796
From: The Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2013
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posted December 23, 2013 01:27 PM
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meissieri
Knowflake Posts: 796
From: The Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2013
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posted December 23, 2013 01:36 PM
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aquaguy91
Moderator Posts: 8472
From: tennessee
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted December 23, 2013 01:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by meissieri:
You and Faith's comments do get me thinking. I'm here trying to think of how it can show so little on the outside. (And only the really bothersome stuff stands out - and when it does, it stands out badly.) I'm getting pretty curious actually in a good way. 
There's a very simple explanation for that..people on the spectrum learn how to fake normal. I have talked to a lot of Aspies and all the ones I have talked to have said the same thing. I can pass for normal most of the time, if I'm really careful and watch what I say. My usual method of doing this is being more reserved around unfamiliar people and observing them to gauge their personality before I interact with them beyond a superficial or businessy level.
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