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Author
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Topic: Yes or No?
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Odette
Moderator Posts: 5252
From:
Registered: May 2012
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posted April 09, 2015 06:28 PM
  
Ami - I'd try not to call anyone a monster really, since it wouldn't help the situation.
When it comes to NPD, I would call them: "misfortunate and toxic mentally ill people".
But it's normal that when you are personally targeted by someone and abused by them, you would feel anger/resentment towards them and feel like calling them a monster.
People with or without empathy can be abusive. There are abusive jerks out there who do not lack empathy - and other people who *do* lack empathy (like many on the Autistic spectrum) and who are not abusive or violent. Some sociopaths are controlled enough and morally sound enough to live "normal" lives and not cause harm to others. Some sociopaths are serial murderers. Anyone who behaves in an aggressive, abusive, violent manner - will be seen as a monster from the victim's perspective and often, from society's perspective - regardless of whether or not they *actually* lack empathy.
Ted Bundy is seen as a monster by many because of the way he chose to act. So I agree with DF that it boils down to actions. Also, there are some theories about empathy and sadism - but I haven't researched this at all so I don't know much about it. The gist was that one could not -both- lack empathy and be a "sadist" (in a particular type of sadism that involves deriving pleasure from identifying with the victim (empathising with them) and being completely aware of the pain one is causing, i.e. what it would "feel like" from the victim's perspective). I would be more inclined to refer to this type of "empathetic" sadist as a monster - if they do not control their sadistic impulses. Because they seem more aware of what they are doing than their non-empathetic counterparts. IP: Logged |
Odette
Moderator Posts: 5252
From:
Registered: May 2012
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posted April 09, 2015 06:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Also, Odette. Thank you for the lovely e mail. I took it to heart xx
Any time! I'm glad it helped  IP: Logged |
Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 61671
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted April 09, 2015 10:09 PM
It did--wisdom. Did you take that quiz to see your sign. I was a Cappy, which surprised me cuz I am an earth void but I respect Cappy's alot lol------------------
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IP: Logged |
Catalina
Knowflake Posts: 2873
From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013
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posted April 11, 2015 02:00 PM
I think calling any group of people monsters shows a lack of empathy. IP: Logged |
Barbiegirl19
Moderator Posts: 5581
From: Pluto with DeepFreeze
Registered: Jul 2013
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posted April 11, 2015 02:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Catalina:
I think calling any group of people monsters shows a lack of empathy.
And prejudice. To answer the question, absolutely not. IP: Logged |
Voix_de_la_Mer
Knowflake Posts: 1127
From: You.
Registered: Aug 2011
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posted April 11, 2015 05:55 PM
Lack of empathy is a clinical symptom.How can we promote healing if we blame people for their illness? IP: Logged |
Odette
Moderator Posts: 5252
From:
Registered: May 2012
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posted April 11, 2015 06:05 PM
quote:
I think calling any group of people monsters shows a lack of empathy.
That depends. I doubt that anyone would place the label "lacking empathy" on a victim of abuse - when/if that person has the reaction of calling their abuser a monster - or calling the group of people the abuser is a part of, "monsters".
Just about any victim of abuse would have this reaction out of hurt and anger - not due to lack of empathy. IP: Logged |
Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 61671
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted April 11, 2015 07:52 PM
Thanks for all the comments, my Friends.------------------
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IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 52289
From: Saturn next to Charmaine
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 12, 2015 12:37 AM
A lack of empathy doesn't make people monsters--their actions do. And if they commit the crime, they should do the time. Does that reflect a lack of empathy on my part?IP: Logged |
Vajra
Moderator Posts: 963
From: Europe
Registered: Dec 2012
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posted April 12, 2015 05:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Odette:
That depends. I doubt that anyone would place the label "lacking empathy" on a victim of abuse - when/if that person has the reaction of calling their abuser a monster - or calling the group of people the abuser is a part of, "monsters".
Just about any victim of abuse would have this reaction out of hurt and anger - not due to lack of empathy.
But isn't losing the ability to see the perpetrator of the crime, and the "group" of people he/she belongs to (even though people belong to various groups simultaneously, so that is already a questionable connection to make), not in fact a (temporary) loss of empathy due to trauma? To me, empathy = fellow-feeling, i.e., the ability to see the essential sameness of all human beings in terms of their basic rights, needs, hopes and wishes, and to have a sympathy for their common plight. The moment this essential fellow-feeling is lost and the person labelled a "monster", this person (or group of persons) is essentially not seen as a fellow human being anymore, is thus being dehumanized to some degree. This is a very dangerous mental road to walk down; it has been purposefully used by many people throughout history who wanted to get others to abuse or kill fellow human beings. This is why soldiers are trained to see "targets" to "neutralize" rather than people to kill, why terrorists talk of "infidels" or "representatives of violent structures" or "exploiters of the masses" to be eliminated from the face of the earth, and why political leaders who want ordinary citizens to commit or at least tolerate genocidal violence against a neighboring group use labels such as "scum" or "lowlifes" or other such words to describe them. All these measures have the purpose of dehumanizing the people targeted. "Monster" would be another such dehumanizing label, which is why I would be very wary of a person who describes groups of people as "monsters" - I would expect such a person to have very little empathy to start with, and to be highly susceptible to the above mentioned questionable mindsets and propaganda methods. (BTW, I don't see the ability to feel suffering (i.e., sensitivity) as indicative of empathy, because empathy implies that this feeling is extended to other people, not only to oneself. Some people can feel very sorry for themselves, and still lack empathy towards others. And sometimes, people who are less prone to suffering can be more empathetic.) While it may be understandable, to some degree at least, that the victim of a violent crime may not be able to perceive the abuser him/herself as anything else than a monster due to trauma suffered at his/her hands (the loss of empathy towards the perpetrator here being easily understandable), the moment this idea is extended by the victim to a whole group of people who have nothing to do with that particular crime, I see this as excessive, unwarranted, and dangerous. Studying the way Nazi propagandists such as Goebbels manipulated the masses with their speeches and texts by stirring up feelings of having been economically "abused" by Jews, and by blaming whole groups of other people (gypsies, communists, the mentally ill, homosexuals, to name just a few) for all kinds of social problems and then calling for their extermination, is very enlightening because it was all too easy to get this message across - mainly because many people unfortunately have this tendency to lose empathy very easily once they feel threatened, even if the threat is only imaginary. So to answer the question in the OP: No. Fully concur with Randall and most others who replied - bad deeds can certainly make a person a criminal (even a monstrous criminal, though not a "monster" per se), but not the presence or absence of a character trait such as empathy. IP: Logged |
Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 61671
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted April 12, 2015 05:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
A lack of empathy doesn't make people monsters--their actions do. And if they commit the crime, they should do the time. Does that reflect a lack of empathy on my part?
I was thinking more in terms of a person with whom one had a family relationship with, Randall, not someone who committed a crime, per se.
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IP: Logged |
bansheequeen
Knowflake Posts: 866
From: Beachville, USA
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted April 13, 2015 05:08 AM
No. Because they still have the capability to make a choice. You don't need to emphasize with someone to look out for their best interest or just be a good person. I can't emphasize with certain people for different reasons but I still know right from wrong.Also, morality has nothing to do with empathy. You can be completely amoral and do the right thing because you feel for someone's situation. Or you could be very moral and do the right thing for someone you don't emphasize with because it's the right thing to do. IP: Logged |
bansheequeen
Knowflake Posts: 866
From: Beachville, USA
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted April 13, 2015 05:16 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
A lack of empathy doesn't make people monsters--their actions do. And if they commit the crime, they should do the time. Does that reflect a lack of empathy on my part?
Yes. Because think about that jail really is. Not only the experience but the reprecussions on someone's life. For most crimes I think jail is too harsh a punishment. Criminals are just people that lost their way. Jail is just revenge and a desire to see someone suffer for what they done, just seems really barbaric. But maybe I have too much empathy sometimes. IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 52289
From: Saturn next to Charmaine
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 13, 2015 12:46 PM
No, jail is to separate them from the rest of society, so they don't harm others.IP: Logged |
aquaguy91
Moderator Posts: 11000
From: Wankety Wankerson
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted April 13, 2015 07:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
No, jail is to separate them from the rest of society, so they don't harm others.
Jails/Prisons do not solve any problems.IP: Logged |
Catalina
Knowflake Posts: 2873
From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013
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posted April 14, 2015 01:03 AM
It is natural for the abused person to feel hurt, anger, even horror towards the abuser, but that is not empathy. Empathy is being able to put yourself in their shoes. But my point was that because one person is abused, that has nothing to do with people other than the abuser. It does nothing to describe a subset of humanity. Most abusive people were abused themselves. Something inside them got twisted. Without excusing their behaviour - or the character trait that causes it - for a minute, calling them a monster is dehumanizing them. And to extend that to other people is to see them as a group not individuals. But it seems the question is unclear. If we are talking about a particular abuser we are not considering "peoplew without empathy " but a person without empathy who may or may not seem monstrous...but then what is a monster? Someone less than human? Someone who doesn't understand they are hurting others, or who is intentionally hurting others? The second may be just as monstrous (or more so really)but does NOT lack empathy. As to their actions, I can have empathy and sympathy for someone without excusing their behaviour. I can understand without agreeing. .. Nurses are taught NOT to empathize but to sympathize with patients. They are more effective that way. Are they monsters? IP: Logged |
Ceridwen
Moderator Posts: 18869
From:
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted April 14, 2015 11:13 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
A lack of empathy doesn't make people monsters--their actions do.
 IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 52289
From: Saturn next to Charmaine
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 14, 2015 12:20 PM
Jails/prisons keep the harsh offenders from harming the rest of us.IP: Logged |
bansheequeen
Knowflake Posts: 866
From: Beachville, USA
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted April 15, 2015 04:09 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
No, jail is to separate them from the rest of society, so they don't harm others.
Trust me.... most the people in jails aren't a danger to anyone. Even someone that hurt someone else isn't really gonna go around hurting everyone. You can't say that since someone got in a bar fight he should be locked up for five years. And incarceration makes criminals more than rehabilitates anyone. Isn't it kind of cruel to just separate someone from the world and rip them away from their lives for committing a crime? And just the stress on the economy and it's just... Jail isn't the answer, and it isn't the best answer we have either. Also prosecutors are hell bent on punishment and convictions. this is in America it might be different in other countries. IP: Logged |
Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 61671
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted April 15, 2015 09:08 AM
On the subject of prisons, I really, really think drugs should be legalized, especially pot. It is an amazing medicine and for that reason, politicians don't want it to be legal. I don't use pot because it is illegal but if it were legal, I would grow it because it is one of God's gifts to mankind imo------------------
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IP: Logged |
aquaguy91
Moderator Posts: 11000
From: Wankety Wankerson
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted April 15, 2015 10:41 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
Jails/prisons keep the harsh offenders from harming the rest of us.
True enough. But what about the non-violent offenders that have to share living quarters with such people? Most criminals in our prison system go in as non-violent drug offenders and come out worse off than they were before. They become hardened and violent because they had to get tough to survive. There are tons of people in prison today who shouldn't even be there living with the threat of being raped,seriously injured, or even killed every single day? How does that benefit anyone? And what about the violent offenders? Do we expect them to return to society and be cured and not at all crazy after living in a cage like a rat for months or years? Our criminal Justice system needs to be completely re-structered and overhauled. IP: Logged |
Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 61671
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted April 15, 2015 11:13 AM
A friend of mine is super into pot. He says I should do it for stress but I don't want to deal with doing anything illegal but he gave me some hemp drops, that are totally legal. They are amazing. I just took some  ------------------
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IP: Logged |
aquaguy91
Moderator Posts: 11000
From: Wankety Wankerson
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted April 15, 2015 03:09 PM
Ami,
I've smoked pot a few times and I can vouch for the fact that it's a great de-stresser. There's literally no reason for it not to be legal. If used responsibly and in moderation it's harmless. IP: Logged |
Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 61671
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted April 15, 2015 06:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by aquaguy91:
Ami,
I've smoked pot a few times and I can vouch for the fact that it's a great de-stresser. There's literally no reason for it not to be legal. If used responsibly and in moderation it's harmless.
Yes, there is too much money in medical drugs for the powers to be to accept pot, which GOD made!
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IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 52289
From: Saturn next to Charmaine
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 16, 2015 03:06 AM
Bottom line, drugs are illegal, so you know the risks of imprisonment if you use them, and especially if yuou sell them. It doesn't matter if you think it's unfair or that it should change. It is what it is. You have to make choices based on how things are, not you want them to be. IP: Logged |
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