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Author Topic:   Narcissus and Echo—The Painful Mirror
Ami Anne
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posted October 20, 2013 09:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
People seemed to really like this, so I thought you might, too.

I was asked to write about Narcissus and Echo. I have done so before but as I grow and change, I get new insights. First of all, one must find out which asteroids are important in one’s chart. Most are not. Hence, if Narcissus and Echo are not important in your chart, you really do not need to worry about them, other than intellectual interest. If they are important to your chart, their stories will resonate with you. You will know before you look at your chart that these asteroids are personal just from how you react to the stories.

If Saturn conjuncts any asteroid, you will be obsessed with that asteroid. Echo conjuncts my Saturn. I have seen this same trend of obsession when Saturn conjuncts asteroids in charts of my clients.

Now, onto the story of Narcissus and Echo.Narcissus is not what most people think he is. He does not think that he can do no wrong. He does not have high self esteem. He wears a mask. Under this mask, he is screaming. Under this mask, he wanders bereft. He is filled with angst but you would never know it by his swagger. You want to bring him down a peg. However, he lives in the basement of his own soul. He hates himself.

When one sees Narcissus looking in the pool, admiring his own reflection, one thinks he believes he is beautiful. He does NOT. He believes he is so ugly and heinous that he can’t stop looking for the glimpse of goodness. Yet, he does not find it. THIS is his tragedy

Echo, on the other hand, truly loves Narcissus. Echo stands to his side, bereft that he can’t see her. She may as well be invisible. She is invisible because she has lost her true voice. She lost it because she THOUGHT she needed Narcissus to give it to her. Echo thought she would find her true self if she could only get Narcissus to love her. She didn’t know that she could have gotten her true voice on her own. This is her tragedy

I suppose one could look at Echo’s love and see that it is flawed. It is flawed because she is making Narcissus her god. She gives Narcissus the power to deem her worthy or deem her damned. This is a story of paired asteroids which fit together like a puzzle piece from hell, or just from the earth and the flawed passions of men.

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IndigoDirae
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posted October 20, 2013 09:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IndigoDirae     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Huh.

Why Saturn and not Pluto?

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Kerosene
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posted October 20, 2013 09:52 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well I understand what narcissus would be about but what does echo do in synastry when she conjuncts planet or angle?

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Ami Anne
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posted October 20, 2013 09:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Echo is a loss of one's voice.

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Kerosene
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posted October 20, 2013 10:16 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
what does that mean?

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NandiNode
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posted October 21, 2013 12:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for NandiNode     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When transiting Saturn opposed my Mercury I started having trouble getting my words out. I figured, well, yeah, an opposition to Mercury might do that; but I just looked up Echo in my chart, and it is in that same place, opposite Mercury, where Saturn was.

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Ami Anne
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posted October 21, 2013 08:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by IndigoDirae:
Huh.

Why Saturn and not Pluto?


What saturn touches, it makes obsessive, in my experience of doing charts.

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Ami Anne
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posted October 21, 2013 08:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kerosene:
what does that mean?

It is when a person becomes a mouse.

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Ami Anne
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posted October 21, 2013 08:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by NandiNode:
When transiting Saturn opposed my Mercury I started having trouble getting my words out. I figured, well, yeah, an opposition to Mercury might do that; but I just looked up Echo in my chart, and it is in that same place, opposite Mercury, where Saturn was.

Wow Thanks Nandi


Yes, I have Echo conj Saturn so I know lol

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IndigoDirae
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posted October 21, 2013 02:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IndigoDirae     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by NandiNode:
When transiting Saturn opposed my Mercury I started having trouble getting my words out. I figured, well, yeah, an opposition to Mercury might do that; but I just looked up Echo in my chart, and it is in that same place, opposite Mercury, where Saturn was.

I'll have to check that, too. Saturn on my Mercury felt like a muzzle. Oh, that was a rough time for a writer.

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IndigoDirae
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posted October 21, 2013 03:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IndigoDirae     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I guess I'll have to look more deeply now, because of Echo being loosely on my Saturn. I just wouldn't say I'm obsessed with it.

I do find it extremely curious now, realising that my Echo is conjunct my TF's Narcissus, on both of our Junos. I can certainly relate to the snippet of that story quite powerfully. (We also both have Narcissus and Echo exactly parallel in our charts individually.)

For quite some time, I felt this way. He loves me, as dearly as he's able, in his way, which is tragically broken. There's too much self-loathing to actually get beyond to the point of genuine, unfettred love.

I hate relating everything to fictional characters, but I am a writer, and that's how we understand things.

It reminds me a lot now, I'm realising, of two characters in the HBO Sorkin drama The Newsroom: Will McAvoy and Mackenzie McHale - the former the Narcissus, the latter the clear Echo.

I can relate intensely to that in my own life.

I was desperately struggling to help HIM find HIS own voice again, as he too made me feel like I'd found my own. But for a long time, I needed him to be able to fully express it. For both of us, we felt as if our creativity was locked into the other. When our communication broke down, we lost our creative voice in general.

Over time, I found my own true voice again - and began to realise he'd lost his a lot longer ago that I thought; and I still remembered the way it sounded, and I longed for it. But I loved him without question or reservation - to the best of my ability. I still do. But now that I've found my path again, and my true voice, I'm doing the things I know that I should with it. He isn't, and that crushes me on some level - but what can I do?

That's the part that strikes a chord with me, regarding the 'Will and Mac' relationship. He wants so very much to return to his former glory, but he's lost his voice, his connexion with himself. (In some ways due to her, and in many others, not.) He's become bitter, cynical, and a high-flying egomaniac. She even has to stress that he's not actually this terrible person - he's just very broken inside.

The fact that she constantly provides a quiet support and unfailing love is beautiful to me. She takes his misdirected abuse and remains steadfast, dedicated to a cause in which they both believe, and becomes a leader to the whole team. They both do, and, in the end, it does pay off. Their story 'ends' happily.

He has a sudden realisation, an epiphany moment somehow which makes him see everything in a new light: he can forgive her for what he deemed a cardinal, unforgivable, sin. He can choose instead to be happy - to love himself, and to express his love for her.

That touched me more deeply than I can express. We watched it together, actually. It dredged up a lot. But, in our usual way, we spoke indirectly, but he didn't deflect as usual. His sarcasm wasn't as biting. I was more honest.

He'd told me, finally, in that moment, that his experience was simply one of such a powerful pain that it's led to an illogical - even pathological - sort of hatred. Not only a self-hatred, but of me, too. Because of the intense sorrow. He can't see beyond that - to me.

But no, Echo can't live in the shadow of Narcissus. She DOES have to strike out on her own, carving her own path, re-finding her own voice.

In many ways, the Narcissus / Echo pattern does 'echo' my current TV series in development. It deals very much so with a woman seeking to recapture her own voice after it being shut out for many years by others, including a larger than life figure for whom she's had a curious, but powerful, very blind love.

Oddly enough, I don't see any Narcissus / Echo connexions in the synastry with the man who's indirectly inspired so much.

He does have Echo-Lewiscarroll on my SNode, however. Hmm. Oh, huh. His Lewiscarroll is also parallel my Echo and Narcissus. And HIS Narcissus and Echo are parallel my Lewiscarroll (on his SNode). Ohhh. DW.

This'll take investigating.

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Ami Anne
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posted October 21, 2013 03:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What kind of writer are you? I am glad this article was helpful to you, Friend.

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Ceridwen
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posted October 21, 2013 05:14 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
tp

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Ceridwen
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posted October 21, 2013 05:15 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ed because of Deja-vu

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Ceridwen
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posted October 21, 2013 05:16 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[dp

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IndigoDirae
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posted October 21, 2013 09:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IndigoDirae     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
What kind of writer are you? I am glad this article was helpful to you, Friend.


Dramatic these days. TV drama, specifically. I've also written a good smattering of transgressive fiction - both crime drama and slipstream science-fiction.

In the nonfiction category, things on psychopathy, criminology, astrology, and amusing, cynical things regarding twinflames, soul mates and other such-type connexions.

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Ami Anne
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posted October 21, 2013 10:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow --like soap operas?

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IndigoDirae
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posted October 22, 2013 03:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IndigoDirae     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
More like cable dramas. Like AMC, Showtime, HBO, and so on. I don't do 'network'. I'm trying to decide if I want to go cable or Netflix right now. Showtime is locked up until 2016, but I'd love to make the switch then.

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Ami Anne
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posted October 22, 2013 04:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by IndigoDirae:
More like cable dramas. Like AMC, Showtime, HBO, and so on. I don't do 'network'. I'm trying to decide if I want to go cable or Netflix right now. Showtime is locked up until 2016, but I'd love to make the switch then.

Wow, I am so impressed! xx

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IndigoDirae
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posted October 22, 2013 06:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IndigoDirae     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks! What can I say? Finding one's voice is a damned powerful thing. I appreciate the time and effort you put into sharing such in-depth 'bytes' of asteroid information. I love learning, and I certainly acquire a lot of knowledge from them.

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LuckyStar
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posted October 23, 2013 07:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LuckyStar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Beautiful post Ami Anne!
I just love mythology and how the stories are so rich on every level.

Have you ever read the periodical Parabola? It takes a concept - in this case love, loss, prison and looks at mythologies from all cultural backgrounds and tells the story.

At certain stages of my life I am obsessed with a greek myth. In my 20s it was Eros and Psyche. In my 30s it was Persephone and Demeter. I am now getting into Hecate (40s)and the 3 graces. (But I'm still not finished being obsessed with Psyche and Persephone - it's more additive.)

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Ami Anne
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posted October 23, 2013 07:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LuckyStar:
Beautiful post Ami Anne!
I just love mythology and how the stories are so rich on every level.

Have you ever read the periodical Parabola? It takes a concept - in this case love, loss, prison and looks at mythologies from all cultural backgrounds and tells the story.

At certain stages of my life I am obsessed with a greek myth. In my 20s it was Eros and Psyche. In my 30s it was Persephone and Demeter. I am now getting into Hecate (40s)and the 3 graces. (But I'm still not finished being obsessed with Psyche and Persephone - it's more additive.)



Thank you, LS

No, I never read that but it sounds fascinating.

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Ami Anne
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posted October 23, 2013 09:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by IndigoDirae:
Thanks! What can I say? Finding one's voice is a damned powerful thing. I appreciate the time and effort you put into sharing such in-depth 'bytes' of asteroid information. I love learning, and I certainly acquire a lot of knowledge from them.


Aww You made my day ID! Thank you

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IndigoDirae
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posted October 23, 2013 10:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IndigoDirae     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:

Aww You made my day ID! Thank you



Thank you, Ami!

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CupOfDavid
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posted November 25, 2013 06:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for CupOfDavid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for posting! I'm glad I happened upon this thread.

I almost got emotional reading about Narcissus because it's like I am Narcissus. And I feel like I can relate to Echo a little as well.

When I checked where the asteroids are in my birth chart, it turns out that Narcissus is conjunct (0 degrees) my 11th house Scorpio Moon and Echo is conjunct (0 degrees) my 1st house Capricorn Uranus.

I'm curious: what do you think these conjunctions mean for me? I'd appreciate your insight!

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