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Author
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Topic: Abortions
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silverbells
Knowflake Posts: 1328
From: maryland
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted March 21, 2004 07:36 PM
 
It is impossible to kill God and it is already written that Satan does not win. So the issue is not about "killing God" or "giving Satan what he wants" (if indeed evil IS what Satan wants).------------------
Loneliness makes you strong, only love makes you free - Michael Franks IP: Logged |
quiksilver
Moderator Posts: 407
From: new jersey, usa
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted March 21, 2004 08:41 PM
Not that I'm advocating angry words, but I just don't understand why people around here get so easily "offended"; by those whom they haven't even met, no less. You are only offended if you allow yourself to be. If you believe in what is true to you, then who cares what another says to the contrary or how they say it? It's a free world. When we encounter other people who cannot restrain their anger or resentment, I think the best reponse is to just send them good energy, or a prayer, if you will -not publicly berate them. People rarely take kindly to that anyway, even if they do deserve some "contructive criticism". That's what I think, anyway...IP: Logged |
The passenger
Knowflake Posts: 370
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 22, 2004 05:23 AM
When I had read JustAmanda's message, I was somewhat startled, owing to the egg issue, espcially when it was me who raised that issue here. I thought for a while about the differences between eggs and human embryos. Yes, the eggs we eat nowadays are unfertilised, but the method of obtaining such mass quantity of eggs everyday is gruesome, and that is the reason why I don't eat them. Let's get back to the main issue here. A human embryo is fertilised, yes, but somehow I have begun to believe that it is still just a piece of flesh of the woman, even though it is growing everyday. I believe women are entitled to deciding what to do with their bodies, and an embryo (an embryo is NOT an egg! Just like humans are not birds! How can you say there's one breed of birds which each of them would only have one spouse for its whole lifetime, even after the spouse dies, so humans must do the same?), to my mind, is still part of the woman's body. Having been a pro-lifer for a long time, lately I have been thinking about this problem we have here quite a lot, and I solemnly believe that under certain circumstances abortions are necessary, albeit it should not be done repeatedly and should not be taken lightly. As for exactly WHEN life begins, to me, it still remains a mystery to be solved. Nonetheless, I absolutely agree with majenta and Eleanore that, JustAmanda, I found your tone very judgemental and lacking respect, too, I appeared to say the opposite simply because the part dealing with eggs confused me. And the way you mentioned God/ess and Satan sounded as though you were rather self-righteous. I don't mean to discredit you or life, I just feel that we should tread on the subject regarding abortion carefully, because we are walking on thin ice. It is a matter of life and death, hence the seemingly never-ending, divisive discussion, but it IS worth discussing. NOT every woman would CHOOSE to abort their babies. Many of them are willing to (I'm not talking about the ones who do it reluctantly) CHOOSE to have their babies! Ultimately, it is, indeed, a matter of basic respect. How can we discuss rationally if we don't respect one another? ------------------
Dana IP: Logged |
The passenger
Knowflake Posts: 370
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 22, 2004 05:30 AM
Just missed your message. Well said, quiksilver. However... People are entitled to saying that one is not supposed to be over-judgemental and making that person see it. No offence, JustAmanda. ------------------
Dana IP: Logged |
trillian
Moderator Posts: 2433
From: The Boundless
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted March 22, 2004 08:51 AM
I don't think anyone acted in an offended manner.People just reacted to what could be interpreted as a possibly inflammatory post...and expressed their own opinions. That's what we do here, express opinions. If you read the home page of LL, Randall outlines that Linda was a highly opinionated person who encouraged free speech, though hoped that it would be done with respect towards the opinions of others. I think LL is a shining example of that ideal, including this thread.  IP: Logged |
Eleanore
Knowflake Posts: 526
From: North Carolina
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted March 22, 2004 12:42 PM
 Right on!IP: Logged |
JustAmanda
Knowflake Posts: 363
From:
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted March 23, 2004 08:49 PM
Why are you all going on and on over one post from me that wasn't given with 100% respect towards what someone other than me believes? I've been posting here longer than my login name shows, for I came under a different name, so, it's not like I'm new to LindaLand and the posters here. I do not come here to start a barrage of "Amanda you were mean" posts, it just so happens that I feel VERY strongly about this subject. I feel that abortion is wrong and that is that. And I have every right to my own opinions and my own beliefs. If my post hurt your feelings, well, I apologize but I'm not apologizing for what I said, think or feel about abortion. I mean, is it because I disagree that I am suddenly WRONG? That my opinion doesn't count anymore? Follow the pack or get left in the den? So what if you didn't like my approach, at least I feel compelled enough to get fired up about it! And this is not being disrespectful, this is me standing strong to my own beliefs and personal convictions. Now, maybe everyone who took what I said in such an offensive manner needs to go back and rethink your own responses to me and your own lack of disrespect for MY thoughts and opinions...for otherwise, it's like calling the kettle black...eh?
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majenta
Knowflake Posts: 92
From: Oz
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted March 23, 2004 11:39 PM
*YawnI did not disrespect your thoughts and feelings, simply the manner in which you expressed them. You MUST have realised that your comments would cause backlash as they are incongruent with what alot of others feel. You WERE disrepsctful of others feelings fullstop. Stand strong by all means but have a little tact when expressing those beliefs and personal convictions. It is not hard. What you must remeber is that, the way in which your opinions are expressed is the manner in which your post will be replied to... it aint rocket science to figure that one out. (note injected sarcasm as a response to black kettle remark). ------------------
- Nothing can bring you peace but yourself - Emmerson IP: Logged |
The passenger
Knowflake Posts: 370
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 24, 2004 02:58 AM
An empathetic, respectful, peaceful, understanding tone is always better than a condemning one, I HOPE you comprehend THIS, JustAmanda.------------------
Dana IP: Logged |
The passenger
Knowflake Posts: 370
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 24, 2004 10:59 AM
This seems a discussion which will result in no defining conclusion. I am not saying I am giving it up. 'Seek the truth, and the truth shall set you free'. The idea of abortion is against my religion, so I found it hard to come to terms with the fact that Linda changed her belief completely. If slaughtering pregnant farm animals is considered cruelty, it would be compared with human abortion and now it appears to be brutality. However, as I said in a previous post, human beings cannot always be compared with animals. We are not talking about taking the embryo/foetus out of the mother's body against her wish, we are talking about voluntary abortion. A foetus grows and moves, no doubt, but the cells of our bodies grow and die, too, and I am truly beginning to (or have been beginning to for a while) believe in the lexigrams of 'abortions', because lexigram really works and it is a powerful instrument: IT IS TORN. IT IS A ROBOT. IT IS NOT BORN. IT IS NOT A SIN. I must say I agree what Eleanore has pointed out- e.g. (rephrased coz I can't remember the exact words) you are not considered a US citizen just because you are conceived in the US, but only when you are born in the US. And, a soul doesn't enter an entity that cannot yet support life. I am not trying to lead us astray, but, slaughtering pregnant farm animals that are approaching full term is one thing, a woman choosing to have an abortion is another. She would not choose (as long as she is sane) to have an abortion when she is reaching full term, because that would be life-threatening to her. There is a limit for this. Again, I am not trying to lead us astray, but allow me to point out the difference between consuming/not consuming eggs and abortion. Personally, I don't eat eggs because their production involves cruelty that is unbeknown to many, and I once said 'Eggs are embryos'. I take that back. They are unfertilised. But that's not the point. So why should we consider it not wrong to have an abortion? Why should we consider it not wrong to take an embryo/foetus out of a uterus? I now am starting to believe that an embryo/foetus is like a cell of the woman's body, not yet an independent life form (by saying so I will offend my fellow parishioners and the authority, it is a big step for me). Now, since JustAmanda mentioned eggs, let me say that, should eggs are fertilised, then we are not supposed to eat them, right (if all of us are non-ovo-vegetarians or vegans)? This is merely about animal exploitation. I would let the hen decide what to do with her eggs and not take them away. My fellow Knowflakes, I really don't want to start another debate on the egg issue, as there have been enough (which was raised by myself, as I've admitted in a previous post) of them. This passage is for JustAmanda and those who are contemplating the doubts. A woman, on the contrary, VOLUNTARILY decides to have an abortion, no exploitation is involved. As for the life right of the unborn, note that it is UNBORN. Life, as I have just found out, cannot begin BEFORE it is born. Yes, there is flesh and blood, but those are just part of the woman's body, like a cell. And JustAmanda, you mentioned Satan. Were you saying all abortions are evil? If that's what you meant, then you were wrong. For reasons such as long-term medication of the woman, hereditary dis-eases from either the man or the woman, a life-threatening pregnancy, and the extremely abnormal conception which is the result of violence and hate- rape, abortion must be carried out. Can you associate those with Satan? Are you calling many of us out there 'evil'? Have you ever wondered how your harsh words, as a fellow Knowflake asked/remarked, may literally hurt a lot of people's feelings because you do not empathise with their situations? Once again, no offence. I just have to speak up for my belief, as every one of us has to. We must be open-minded in ordered to solve an agenda. Then again, I am going to confuse myself and the rest of you, as though I'm a mumbling rambling wacko- a foetus does have a heart beat and does move. But it does not breathe. It is not an independent life form. It is just a growing cell, like all other cells of a woman's body. You may say an embryo/foetus is an individual entity and hence not simply a piece of flesh of the woman, but the truth is, to some people's astonishment (as they read this), it IS a piece of flesh of the woman. By the way, as a foetus grows, it gradually becomes a virtual baby, thus when it reaches certain stage, an abortion is not recommended/permitted. Who would deliberately harm her body by doing so (I am talking about the average women)? No one would. And it always is the woman's individual Free Will to choose whether to abort the baby, or to keep it. ------------------
Dana IP: Logged |
The passenger
Knowflake Posts: 370
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 24, 2004 11:07 AM
BTW there's no need to argue about eggs- I really don't mind if you eat them or not, pls ------------------
Dana IP: Logged |
JustAmanda
Knowflake Posts: 363
From:
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted March 24, 2004 11:24 AM
Dana...I love your last post about eating eggs...it made me giggle...not in a making fun of you way, it just made me think "that was so cute!"anyway...I'm random... But, I don't think I should have participated in this thread and I apologize for that. There are some things in life that I cannot and will not bend on, and because of my passion for certain subjects I tend to come off in a demeaning way. I am a Sagittarius after all...brutally honest. And because of the particular way that I feel about this subject, I am not likely at all to be able to come across in a respectful manner, because I simply do not agree with some of the things I have read, and there is nothing that anyone can say or do about it. You all could give opinions till the cows come home and I'd still be as bull headed as I am right now... It's not meant to be a slap to anyone, it's just how I am about certain things. Not everything though...or else I wouldn't be coming here for 2 or 3 years now... I have always felt LindaLand to be an open forum as well, to be able to share ideas and thoughts without anyone getting all wacked out about it, and for the most part it is, with the except of my OWN wacking out in this thread...but there again, it was a gut reaction and I followed it... Now, you guys continue on with this discussion because I have nothing left to share in reference to it... Oh and I'm not even going to get into a debate over my religion--except to say that I am a Protestant and I believe in good and evil. I believe in God and Jesus Christ and in Satan. However, as I've explained in the past, I have a different thought process than most Christians...but I really don't feel the urge to share any of that at this point. Your opinion of me has already been forged. IP: Logged |
Harpyr
Moderator Posts: 1568
From: sleepy Rocky Mountain village
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted March 24, 2004 11:37 AM
OH! You're another Sag...okay.. now I know why I intuitively resisted the urge to comment directly to your posts J.A. I'm a Sag too and can totally understand about having beliefs set so strongly that there's no use in arguing.
I've got my share of such passionate beliefs as well. One such passion is that we keep laws off women's bodies. Since I understand where you are coming from no need for us to butt heads though.. neither one of us will budge from our position I can see now. That's Jupiter for ya sometimes. IP: Logged |
Eleanore
Knowflake Posts: 526
From: North Carolina
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted March 24, 2004 12:52 PM
For what it's worth, I'm a Sagittarius, too.
JustAmanda,
I think if you re-read everyone's comments about your posts you'll note that nobody was asking you to apologize for what you believe. In fact, it is quite clear that the only thing that bothered folks was the way you presented your opinions ... ie, questioning whether or not we have thought about our positions and presenting your views in a very "in your face" kind of way, as though only you could be right, etc. That was the general tone of your post to me, anyway.
I also don't think that a post/reply written in an angry way such as yours suggests that you feel stronger about your beliefs than the others who tried to have some respect and tact while sharing their views. I feel very strongly about my views, but when I choose to share them I keep in mind that others will probably feel just as strongly about theirs. If I want people to at the very least listen to what I have to say, then I am going to present my views as tactfully and considerately as I can ... the same as I would be expected to in a debate or anything else.
Nobody said you were wrong, by the way. Again, please read the replies without putting up a defensive shield and really understand that you are as welcome as anyone else to your beliefs and opinions. You are also just as free as anyone else to share them. Perhaps you hadn't noticed, but not everyone agrees with everyone else about this topic ... there is no "pack" to follow or be left behind by. It is a matter of courtesy and consideration for others beliefs and feelings, that's all.
"So what if you didn't like my approach," very well then, so what? I'm not asking this to sound harsh or mean, but if that's how you feel, then why would you be so offended by others responding to you?
If reading our previous posts (where we shared our views trying to be considerate towards one another) made you so angry that you felt you had to write a reply in the manner that you chose to (disrespectfully, etc), then how could you not understand that we would be bothered by your post? Edited at around 4:00pm:
I posted this reply to try to clarify some reasons why you should not feel as though your opinions don't matter or shouldn't be shared. Please don't feel angry or betrayed because the fact is that even though we may not agree here, it doesn't mean that we are not welcome to share. Trust me, I get a lot of heat for what I believe from lots of people ... that's probably why I learned to try to be more tactful (I'm a Sag too so believe me I know it isn't easy). I hope I haven't offended you personally because I certainly didn't mean to. I'm sorry if I did.
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JustAmanda
Knowflake Posts: 363
From:
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted March 24, 2004 08:43 PM
aw...no need to worry E! One good thing about being a Sag is it's REALLY hard to hold grudges against people or to be mad at them!! I have this incredible urgency sometimes to just spout off at the mouth, maybe that is my Taurus rising? Who knows...but at any rate, then, after I do so, I think back and say to myself.."now, why did I get all weird about that!?" ...and then I have a terrible feeling of guilt and worry that someone is angry with me or that they won't like me...I am a very very complicated person... IP: Logged |
majenta
Knowflake Posts: 92
From: Oz
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted March 24, 2004 11:48 PM
 Such a commplicated issues with so many variables. ------------------
- Nothing can bring you peace but yourself - Emmerson IP: Logged |
The passenger
Knowflake Posts: 370
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 25, 2004 07:46 AM
I used to express my opinions in a VERY strong manner, too, so I definitely can understand...JustAmanda, I appreciate your views as I appreciate every other Knowflake's, We, here on Linda Land, are meant to exchange our different (and sometimes similar) ideas, which is a grand thing. A thing we should cherish, because right here we share something with each other all the time. I learnt that I must be more empathetic towards different viewpoints and different situations of others. You are very welcome to join us, JustAmanda. Love
Peace
Joy ------------------
Dana IP: Logged |
TINK
Knowflake Posts: 943
From: New England
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted March 25, 2004 10:37 AM
Hey JustAmanda. No hard feelings here. I'm 100% pro-choice, but if I thought innocent babies were being killed I'd be pretty damn outspoken too. Follow your heart. IP: Logged |
Eleanore
Knowflake Posts: 526
From: North Carolina
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted March 25, 2004 10:58 AM
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trillian
Moderator Posts: 2433
From: The Boundless
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted March 25, 2004 12:47 PM
To me, strong opinions are a thing of beauty...they move the world.
JustAmanda, if you hadn't reacted so strongly, we might have missed an opportunity to clarify and express our own beliefs.
This is a wonderful thread, in search of truth and rightness...which is as individual as we are. to all. IP: Logged |
silverbells
Knowflake Posts: 1328
From: maryland
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted March 25, 2004 03:05 PM
Just Amanda - I haven't forged any opinion about you and I also wasn't trying to bate you into a religious debate or conversation (although I wouldn't mind) and as I do not have the hang - ups and resentments that many people have it wouldn't have to be a conversation filled with animosity disguised as healthy spiritualism. I wasn't trying to offend you I just saw your mention of God and the devil and I thought that it was interesting as I have thoughts on the subject as well. You gave your thoughts and I would give mine, I wasn't "accusing" you of being a Christian. (I make that statement and use the word "accusing" because being a Christian seems to be a negative thing around here).That being said, I was offended by your first post but hey - what are you going to do. IP: Logged |
Eleanore
Knowflake Posts: 526
From: North Carolina
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted March 26, 2004 10:13 AM
You know, I've noticed other people mention that "being a Christian" is considered a negative thing in this forum. Or maybe you mentioned it somewhere else and it stuck in my head  . I hope I haven't contributed to your perspective on that. I was raised Catholic but rebelled against it early on. However, like all other religions, I can find truth in their scriptures when I read between the lines. I have just never felt that organized religion, any organized religion, was right for me. Perhaps alot of people here seem to be "against" Christianity in particular because it is something they also experienced personally and then rejected. I suppose if I was raised Buddhist and I rejected that religion (which in all likelihood I probably would have) then my comments would seem to be "anti" Buddhist. I guess -everyone just speaks from what they know through personal experience - is what I'm trying to say. However, I don't think most (if not all) people here want to "bash" anyone else's religion or beliefs. Just my observation anyway.I suppose this thread has died down on the abortion issue. I wouldn't mind continuing the discussion, though I must admit I can't think of anything to write as a continuing point, lol.  IP: Logged |
The passenger
Knowflake Posts: 370
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 26, 2004 10:44 AM
My religious background is rather peculiar- my mother is a Protestant and she used to bring me to Sunday school every Sunday. However, I was never baptised. Later, I sort of converted into Catholicism, because I simply felt bound by its essence. I still go to Mass every Sunday, but I've become a rebel, unbeknown to my fellow parishioners (who have LARGE families- four children, six, ten etc) and the priests and nuns. You may call me two-faced. Maybe I am. I still am fascinated by all the riuals, but I am beginning to seriously quesition the whole system. I don't want to be baptised because I do not want to be restricted by any religion.~~~Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
----John Lennon You may call me a self-contradictory bi**h.
_ ------------------
Dana IP: Logged |
The passenger
Knowflake Posts: 370
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted April 03, 2004 01:57 PM
I'm about to be VERY self-contradictory again...please forgive me.Notwithstanding I came up with the conclusion that the unborn cannot be a life form, my faith still haunts me and says: 'Conception is sacred. Pregnancy is a gift.' Fact is, the embryo is growing everyday, is made of flesh and blood, and the foetus has a heart beat and can move... (apart from the fact that it doesn't breathe) So when exactly does life begin anyway? I still believe that all pregnancy should be treasured and abortions must not be taken lightly. Bearing children/aborting babies is a great responsibility. But still, women do have the right to decide what to do with their bodies... Hopefully, in this Aquarian Age, things will get clearer. BTW, I am absolutely for birth control, the use of condoms and pre-marital sex, unlike what the Pope has been against. Perhaps one day the mystery of abortion will finally be solved. Let's meditate on it... Love
Peace
Joy ------------------
Dana IP: Logged |
alchemiest
Knowflake Posts: 224
From: baltimore, MD USA
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted April 10, 2004 01:19 PM
Does anyone know if abortions hurt? Physically, I mean. Just wondering.
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