posted June 15, 2004 01:27 PM         

Do I sound self-contradictory? I certainly do. Nonetheless, deep down, I do believe a vegan diet is suitable for everyone, you just have to find the right path.

On intelligence:

Actor Natalie Portman has been a strict vegetarian since the age of 8, and she was a straight As student and just graduated from Harvard University with a degree in psychology a couple of years ago.

posted June 15, 2004 02:35 PM         

quote:
For example, the US meat industry spends a good deal of time suggesting, and sometimes openly stating, that vegetarian and vegan children have poor growth. The reality, however, is that there are typically no problems in the growth and development of vegetarian and vegan children who eat varied diets with enough calories and adequate intake of vitamin B-12. (11)

The meat industry spends even more time insinuating that iron deficiency anemia is more common in vegetarian children. But here again, the truth is far from what the industry ads would have you believe. Vegetarian children, in fact, show no greater incidence of iron deficiency anemia than any other children. (12)

One of the meat industry's most tenaciously held tenets is that children must eat meat in order to have proper brain development. "Consuming two to three servings a day from the Meat Group." says the National Live Stock and Meat Board, "is important...to achieve cognitive function." (13) This is a remarkable statement, especially when compared to the scientific data. According to research published in the Journal of the American Dietetic Association and elsewhere, the average I.Q. of US children is 99, while the average I.Q. of vegetarian US children is 116. (14)

11 Nathan, I., et al., "A Longtudinal Study of the Growth of Matched Pairs of Vegetarian and Omnivorous Children...," European Journal of Clinical Nutrition 51 (1997): 20-5; O'Connell, J.M., et al., "Growth of Vegetarian Children: The Farm Study," Pediatrics 84 (1989): 475-89; Sanders, T.A.B., "Growth and Development of British Vegan Children," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 48 (1988): 822-5.

12 Craig, W., "Iron Status of Vegetarians," Ameriacan Journal of Clinical Nutrition 59 (Sup) (1994): 1233S-37S; Messina, Virginia, and Messina, Mark, The Dietitian's Guide to Vegetarian Diets: Issues and Applications (Gaithersburg, MD: Aspen Publishers, 1996).

13 "Meat's Nutrients and Cognitive Development," Facts from the Meat Board: Nutrition, National Live Stock and Meat Board, 1995, p. 4.

14 Dwyer, J.T., et al., "Mental Age and I.Q. of Predominately Vegetarian Children," Journal of the American Dietetic Association, 76 (1980): 142-7.

posted June 15, 2004 03:21 PM         

D'Adamo believes that people who are type O and type B must eat meat daily to be healthy. When confronted with the fact that vegetarian diets have been consistently shown to produce lower rates of cancer, heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, gallstones, kidney disease, obesity, and colon disease, and to enable people to live longer and more healthfully, he explains that type A's do well on vegetarian diets. It is, however, mathematically impossible that the health advantages seen in vegetarians could be accounted for only by type A's benefiting from the absence of meat. According to the Red Cross blood bank, the population of the United States is approximately 39 percent type A, 46 percent type O, 11 percent type B, and 4 percent type AB. (74) There is no possible way that the consistent superiority of vegetarian diets that has been demonstrated repeatedly by world medical research could be due to vegetarian diets having health advantages only for type A's, who are, after all, a minority of the population.

Similarly, D'Adamo's explanation for the success of Dr Dean Ornish's program of reversing heart disease, which includes putting people on a near-vegan diet with no meat, is that it has only worked for type A's. It does not, he says, help type O's, type B's, or type AB's. (75)

I asked Lee Lipsenthal, M.D., the vice president and medical director of Dr Dean Ornish's Preventive Medicine Research Institute, whether this might be possible. He replied,

"There is no evidence in the scientific literature associating blood typology with nutrient needs. Although heart disease almost invariably gets worse, even when patients follow the American Heart Association recommendations, most of our patients have shown actual reversal of their disease, and the vast majority have shown measurable improvement in many areas- improved physical function on exercise tests, improved blood flow to the heart muscle, improved mood and sense of vitality, improved cholesterol levels, improved blood pressure, improved sleep patterns, and improved social function. We've had many hundreds of patients show dramatic improvements, and all this has been measured by objective tests. I don't see any possibility that people with types O and B (who together represent nearly 60 percent of the population of the U.S.) are not being helped by the Ornish program."

D'Adamo believes that the risk of heart disease for type O's is reduced by eating meat. (77) There is, however, no evidence in the world medical literature for this belief. In fact, it is difficult to find supporting evidence anywhere for any of D'Adamo's theories. Like Barry Sears, his books have no footnotes, so there is no way to track sources or substantiate his remarks. And, like Sears, he has never published any supporting research of his own in any accredited medical or scientific journal.

The blood-type diet's explanation for why type O's presumably need meat is that type O's do "well on animal products and protein diets- foods that require more stomach acids for proper digestion." In fact, D'Adamo says that "type O's can efficiently digest meats because they tend to have high stomach acid content."

It is well known, however, that not all men and women with type O blood produce more hydrochloric (stomach) acid; some secrete normal levels and some have less than normal. Further, it is pepsin, not hydrochloric (stomach) acid, that is responsible for meat protein digestion. In people who have large amounts of hydrochloric acid, the stomach environment becomes unusually acidic. An especially acidic stomach actually make pepsin less effective at digesting protein. (79)

posted June 15, 2004 03:35 PM         

75 Peter D'Adamo's Web site (2000): www.dadamo.com/forum/board-add/index.

76 Personal communication with author. See also Gould, et al., "Changes in My-Long-Term, Intense Risk Factor Modification," Journal of the American Medical Association 274 (1995): 894-901.

77 Peter D'Adamo's Web site (2000): www.dadamo.com/forum/board-add/index.

78 D'Adamo, Eat Right for Your Type, pp. 6-7.

79 "The Blood Type Diet: Latest Diet Scam" (2000); www.vegsource.com/articles/blood_hype.

posted June 15, 2004 04:38 PM         

Why do you have issues eating meat off the bone, skinning and boning the flesh and gutting a fish? Have you ever wondered why?

Do you prepare your flesh right from the start? You would have to if no one was there to help you. Why would you lose your appetite then? Have you ever thought about it?

Because it's gory. Because it's against human nature- which has been altered since long ago.

When I said 'sick' I meant 'nauseous'. Fruit never makes you nauseous. I never have diarrheoa even if I eat loads of fruit. People do due to each individual's unique physical function or the fact that humans have been led astray from a diet that contains plenty of fruit for such a long time. I never said you should eat too much fruit. A healthy human being would stop eating when he/she is full or nearly full because he/she has a normal appetite.

You should be careful when you put your baby on a vegetarian/vegan diet because if you're ill-informed, it is dangerous. No doubt. However, if you are well-informed, this is not the case- 'Vegetarian and Vegan Mother and Baby Guide', published by Viva! and the Vegetarian & Vegan Foundation has several successful cases in it, and provides essential advice on the proper diets for pregnancy, lactation, weaning and of course, the diets for the baby as well . Any mother-to-be who intends to make her child go veggie/vegan should start her balanced veggie/vegan diet before pregnancy (or at the start or once aware that she is pregnant) so the baby can adjust to it right from the very beginning.

Tell me, what do you think about the antibiotics, hormones, tranquilisers being injected into the farm animals? I'd like to hear your thoughts on this agenda. What do you think cause BSE, Foot and Mouth and Bird Flu and other epidemics as such? What do you think of the severely contaminated ocean? Do you honestly believe it is still safe to eat what live in it? And what's your opinion on factory farming? Have you ever heard of or seen anything about it? Have you ever read about it? You should watch it for yourself- it's not hard if you are ever interested.

The jungle rule 'eat or be eaten' no longer applies to today's situation. Humans are different from other animals because we can form words in our heads and speak them, which means we know how to think. We know how to generate ideas and how to transform them. We can simply choose not to be on top of the food chain any more. This is what I call evolution.

Gandhi may have drunk his own urine, but the reason why I mentioned him was because I was pointing out to you that he was a vegetarian, and yet he was totally different from Hitler, so we've got at least two examples here, which are good ones- you've got all kinds of people, vegetarians or not, meat-eaters or not. There's no point in condemning vegetarianism by saying Hitler was a vegetarian.

The Bible is a mystery. The lexigram of the word 'Bible' contains 'LIE', of which I am aware. Nonetheless, it is also about truth. I read the Bible with my own intuition and my intuition tells me, for example, that Jesus did exist and he died for us and lived again. I am not going to enter another battle field for either defending or accusing the Bible as this topic does not belong to this forum.

posted June 15, 2004 06:30 PM         

Of course it has occured to me that it is because it's gory. My intelligence isn't in question here. I also get really scared at gory films. No, I could not kill another animal so that I could eat it. If I were alone on an island with no one to kill, I would eat vegetarian... and suffer the consequenses. That's not the case in the real world. In the real world, there are people to do that for me. So, I don't fret. I can afford to see to it I buy all of my meat prepared. I also buy my meat from Nature's Market place, the local nutritional grocery store. I am very wise to the importance of nutrition. This is why I choose to eat meat. It's much easier than spending the small fortune it costs to receive the same nutrition from a vegetarian diet that is lacking in so many things you have to buy loads of supplements to compensate.

How do I feel about hormones and antibiotics? What kind of silly question is that. I mean really. What do you expect me to say, that I think they're wonderful??

I also believe that he bible has no place in this topic. That is why I made comments to discredit it as I did. I have no faith in the bible whatsoever, but that opinion isn't relavent to the topic at hand... Neither is someone's belief in it.

The severly contaminated ocean... the factory farming... the epidemics. Just like PETA... you're playing on peoples emotions to try to win. Tisk tisk tisk.

I have seen documentaries about factory farming, and read plenty. It is very unfortunate the way the animals are treated, and I do not support factory farming with my money.

BTW... go back and read. I didn't "bring up Hitler" he was simply mentioned in an article I posted. Once more... playing on emotions.

You are clearly a FAR left liberal.

I am a liberal myself, thought it might not seem so in this string. I find it necessary to show the person I am debating with the opposite side of their position. Usually a good debator is capable of keeping emotion out of it.

It is difficult to debate (from my experience) with FAR left liberals because most all beliefs and values are so tied up with emotion they refuse to hear or see anything you have of value to input.

By starting this string, you asked for someone to give you evidence of why eating meat could be benificial to humans. I have done just that... although you refuse to see it. So carried away with what you're going to say next that you don't bother to absorb any of what I have had to say. You make that clear by accusing me several times of using Hitler as an example of why not to be vegetarian... when I never used the name Hitler myself.

I am done with this discussion, as I have realized you only started this string to bolster your own richousness in vegetarinism, and not to actually debate vegetarian vs. omnivorism as you misled in the subject line.

posted June 15, 2004 06:57 PM         

I eat everything that is grown in Australia, organic that is, but anything else likely would be imported from other countries, as far as I know only the mangoes are from Mexico this time of year here. I'd definantly believe you about the human feces, nothing amazes me.

I know that I feel different in a better way after eating a meal of just vegetables and carbs, than eating meat with a meal. That's just my experience with meat. It didnt mean to say that is how everyone feels, I just was agreeing with Dana.

No hard feelings. I respect your intellegence, because you are indeed Librasparkle.

Just read your latest post. In regard to spending fortunes on veg food and supps, for me, Im spending no more than I usually would, and I keep a strict budget and record everything, so I know.

I dont believe Dana to be playing on peoples emotions to win, this is not only a health issue, its definantly an issue of compassion.

Lets keep this debate nice, I dont normally debate about vegetarianism, well I dont debate at all. I just sense people are starting to pummle eachother. I dont believe any one is wrong, everyone has their own truths and everyone is right to themselves. I respect everyone here. I only speak for myself when I say how I feel and become affected in relation to Vegetarianism vs. omnivorism.

Peace.

------------------
"Infinity Extends Outward Through Space And Time.

posted June 16, 2004 12:47 AM         

You haven't answered my question, which you dismissed as 'silly'. You don't have to answer me just now, just give it a thought. We eat what we inject into the animals. That's the reality you have to face.

'I can afford to see it I buy all of my meat prepared.'

If you had to get the meat for yourself, you would have to become a hunter and kill, or play a butcher in your own kitchen (my tone may sound too extreme. If it does, please accept my apology for lacking in tact). Typical Libra is supposed to be a peace-loving sign- no offence, don't get me wrong.

'...When I never used the name Hitler myself.'

Yes you did.

I am not like PETA. I don't go on the streets and protest fervently and open the cages and let the animals all run out of the lorries. I don't do things like that.

I did not intend to mislead people with the topic title, and we were lucky to have you joining us and sharing a different perspective with us, which has been stimulating.

'Nowhere in this dicussion has it been my intent to "convert" you. I doubt you can say the same.'

I don't have to say the same. I am here to provide information, that's all. It's as simple as that, and I like hearing different voices. I respect people's Free Will choices and I respect your disagreeing with me.

posted June 16, 2004 12:18 PM         

Let me make this clear, since you seem to be struggling with the facts here.

I DID NOT MENTION HITLER ON MY OWN. HE WAS MENTIONED IN AN ARTICLE I POSTED. But really... let's just go back and forth about this like children instead of going back and reading the facts like adults... that should smooth things over.

Go back and read. You're more interested in what YOU have to say than anyone else, so I suspect you won't bother. Just as you didn't bother to check your facts before posting this last time. You must be one of those people who really like to hear themselves talk, but never bothers to listen.

I dismissed your silly questions becuase they were just that. Silly and not dignified enough for a response for me.

As I stated I buy my meat for the local nutrition store. Maybe you're incapable of reading between the lines. Let me help you.

THAT MEANS I DON'T BUY MEAT WITH HORMONES, ANTIBIOTICS AND THE LIKE.

Of course I think all those things are aweful. Here's a little tid bit you might not know ... Even people who aren't vegetarians are consious of the food they eat, and eat quite healthily.

I said it once, and I'll say it again. The bigest turn off about most vegetarians are their bigoted attitudes toward others that don't share their same beliefs. Yes... just as disrespecting a person of color for being a person of color makes you a bigot... so does thinking you are better because of the food you consume.

posted June 16, 2004 12:39 PM         

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to your compassionate words. You are the kind of vegetarian to be respected. Just as the kind of Christian to be respected is one that follows his path and doesn't judge others, you have in no way made comments leading me to believe you are somehow better than me for living your life the way you do.

I respect your input, and open-mindedness.

You really are a burst of sparkly sunshine on a cold and cloudy day

posted June 17, 2004 07:40 AM         

You did not mention Hitler on your own, it was mentioned in an article which you quoted. I apologise. However, clearly, that article was wrong to mention Hitler as an example- not all vegetarians are like him or drink their own urine (as you said on your own about Gandhi later on).

You may purchase meat that doesn't contain antibiotics and hormones, but most others do, and that's an issue. You refuse to face the reality, just like I refuse to agree with you.

I said in a previous post that 'it (being a vegetarian/vegan) doesn't necessarily mean you're a better person'. I do see that. Don't think I don't even know that.

Quote from 'Why Vegan' (The Vegan Society):

'The raising of livestock takes up more than two-thirds of agricultural land (3). The world's 21 billion livestock animals are increasingly fed with grains and cereals that could have been directly consumed by humans, or that were grown on land that could have been used to grow food rather than feed. The developing world's undernourished millions are now in direct competition with the world's livestock- and they are losing.

A varied vegan diet uses half the amount of land used to produced a typical vegetarian diet and one fifth of that used for a typical European omnivorous diet. (4)'

(3) C. de Haan, H. Steinfeld & H. Blackburn, 'Livestock and the Environment: Finding a Balance,' United Nations Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO), US Agency for International Development (USAID), World Bank, 1998

(4) Based on P.W. Gerbens-Leenes et al. 'A method to determine land requirements relating to food consumption patterns,' Agriculture, Ecosystems and Environment, 2002; 90:47-58

So why not save the crops for the starving people in Africa and in other parts of the world instead of feeding the massive amount of farm animals which are produced in an enormous quantity?

You have your beliefs, and I have mine. I state my beliefs, and you let me know yours. I defend my beliefs, and you defend yours. In the process, our diverse beliefs may or may not influence each other and other people. It is what it's supposed to be. You firmly believe in what you believe in, just like I firmly believe in what I believe in. You disagree with vegetarianism/veganism, just like I disagree with omnivorism, this is already a debate, not just an arguing match. And healthy discussions are good.

Animals are souls, that's what I believe.

posted June 17, 2004 03:36 PM         

I'm just curious...and I'm trying to be more open-minded. Also, I think your information has been quite valuable, which has provided great insight. So don't get me wrong, I won't speak with a condemning tone again...I'd like to know more about things.

So...

In your hometown, Vancouver USA, there is one nutrition store at which you purchase the antibiotic and hormone free meat. Is it an organic shop? Are there many of them in Vancouver or in the entire country? What other foods do they sell? Are all the meats, fish and other products locally grown (on organic farms)? Are they inexpensive? Are there many people there aware that such places exist?

I am aware that those vegetarian/vegan groups manipulate people in some way by claiming an omnivorous diet predominantly consists of junk food and cause obesity. The truth is, most omnivores who eat healthily are not even overweight at all. On the other hand, there ARE vegetarians and vegans who are overweight or even obese, it all depends on what foods they consume and whether they exercise or not. Many vegetarian/vegan/animal rights organisations do use propaganda and scare tactics, which is a crying shame because the ones that uphold the principle 'live and let live', 'people are free to choose their lifestyles', 'you shouldn't be judgemental' are the minority.

I've met quite a few vegans and they looked very pale, small and weak. They just didn't look healthy to me. I know they lacked the essential nutrients their bodies needed. And their radical attitudes and their over-sensitivety over entering Burger King for using the rest room for convenience just put me off. It was when I first became a vegetarian once again and I was not used to their extreme attitudes. But gradually I became more and more like them...being a vegetarian, especially being a vegan, you would have to closely watch your diet and take supplements in order not to suffer from malnutrition. Vegetarians and vegans who are not well-informed will definitely be weak and lack strength. On the contrary, meat-eaters who are concerned about what they eat and keep their diet balanced- which contains red meat, white meat, fish and other seafood, vegetables and fruit, whole grains and other varied foods, will live healthily. I believe so because I've been there. Anything can go wrong- an unbalanced plant-based diet makes you fall ill, while an unbalanced omnivorous diet (notice I am not using the term 'meat-based' as an omnivorous diet does not contain just meat) makes you fall ill as well.

For the radicals (like what I used to be), they believe anything that is animal-based makes you nauseous. But fact is, the taste of dairy, eggs, fish, poultry and red meat can be pleasant. I used to be an omnivore, so I know. And I've been sounding like a radical, but my attitude is beginning to change. Especially the texture of fish and chicken is nice, I can't deny that. Cod liver oil is highly beneficial for humans and contains vitamins A and D which we need. And fish increase our intelligence. Like I said in a previous post, Japanese are a fish-eating people and they are one of the most intelligent peoples in the world and most of them live long.

From what I have seen, vegetarians, vegans in particular, are rather small and skinny, ill-looking even. Meat-eating people are taller and stronger, and they tend to have more energy. As long as they stay away from fast food, which I believe many of them do. I remember Gandhi's image and he was so skinny. Too skinny for me to class him as 'healthy'.

I agree with you, Danielle. Many people who eat meat are concerned about maintaining a balanced-diet, and they are healthy. Those reports from most vegetarian/vegan organisations sound as if omnivores eat nothing but meat. They overlook the fact that those people are omnivores, not carnivores. They eat meat and as well as veggies and fruits and other foods.

The beginning of the human existence is a mystery, and the Bible is not a reliable source, I agree with that, although I have a somewhat irrational urge to follow its teaching, but I'm not a practising Christian- I go to Mass on Sundays, but that by no means indicates that I do and buy everything the Bible says. Remember, the lexigram of the word 'Bible' contains 'LIE'. I'm not one hundred per cent familiar with the Darwin theory, but I suppose in early times humans were hunters, and they became stronger ever since. There are places on this planet where crops can't be grown and, for instance, Inuits do have to consume meat and meat alone, and I will not accuse them and say they are guilty. Native Amerians hunted and when they had killed an animal, they would have said a prayer to their animal brother/sister for their sacrifice, in order to pay their respect, and I admire their spirit.

I am beginning to agree with the rule 'eat or be eaten'. We are earthly beings and this is unavoidable. Humans can be eaten by other wild animals too, so this is it.

However, here in Taiwan, all animal products are contaminated. Not even an organic shop that sell meat, as far as I know, is around. Are organic shops common in the States? Please let me know.

It's true that we shouldn't treat animals like that- putting them in tiny space, over-crowded, which spawns epidemics, chemical feed and meat-based feed for herbivorous farm animals, injection of drugs, dumping contaminated industrial water and used battery into the sea...if only we could find a better way to raise farm animals and treat the sea/rivers/lakes/ponds with respect, most meats would be edible. But how can we achieve that in the short run?

One reader posted a letter to the editor in the latest issue of 'The Vegan' magazine and he asked a vital question: 'if we all stop eating meat, where are we going to put those animals?' Certainly not like PETA who irresponsibly run onto the streets and 'free' all the animals in cages and let them run out of the vehicles. That's madness.

As I said in a previous post to Natasha, I had been a lacto-ovo vegetarian back in 2001 and my health was poor, because I was overseas and my diet was, though deliciously prepared by my host family, lacking in essential nourishment. I failed my intensive training. The following year I went back to being an omnivore and this time (with the help of various nutrition supplements), I felt much more energetic and I managed to complete the difficult training and passed my exam with credit. Danielle, you have finally reminded me that I shoud not have totally discredited omnivorism.

The human population are growing, and we need more meat everyday. We should find a way to change the methods of factory farming. We should. The market demand is immense, and it's hard to make things happen over night. Perhaps today's advancedly civilised world is finally facing the ultimate challenge of heading towards destruction...but I don't expect the end of world to come. Not even soon. I am full of hope about the future of our planet.

Veganism can be extremism- its teaching is to avoid all animal products and the use of any animal as far as possible. Does that mean I can't even ride a horse just because I shouldn't sit on it and force it to run? I enjoy horse-riding and I will not give it up.

Becoming a vegetarian/vegan doesn't mean you're a kind, compassionate or spiritual person- some of them can by utterly cruel, like Adolf Hitler, and not just him. They care way too much about animal rights and they forget about people. They say meat-eaters are guilty, but the truth is, many omnivores are innocent. They just don't know there is an alternative, and that doesn't mean they are guilty. Guilty is too strong an accusation.

I may sound totally different from my previous posts and ultra-self-contradictory, but I believe I simply have just been enlightened in some way, and I can see the picture more clearly now. You don't have to interfere with others' personal choices, as long as animals are treated humanely (improved farming methods, stunning prior to killing, it must be taken step by step, one step at a time). Personally, I choose to be a vegan, and I don't lecture my friends when I eat out with them. I don't play a preacher any more (since just now). I have a lot to learn from a good friend of mine, who minds his own business and never forces others to go vegetarian.

posted June 17, 2004 05:58 PM         

quote:

---

In your hometown, Vancouver USA, there is one nutrition store at which you purchase the antibiotic and hormone free meat. Is it an organic shop? Are there many of them in Vancouver or in the entire country? What other foods do they sell? Are all the meats, fish and other products locally grown (in organic farms)? Are they inexpensive? Are there many people there aware that such places exist?

---

The place I most frequently go is a Naturpathic Superstore of sorts. Most of the locals know about it. They sell organic everything. Herbs. There's a Naturpath on staff weekday business hours. We also have Trader Joe's which has a great selection of low priced healthy foods. (My hubby's allergic to soy, so I find a lot of whey protein subsitutes there... snack bars, smoothy mixes, etc.) Many local grocery stores are beginning to carry a lot of organic produce and antibiotic/hormone free meats. Fred Meyer is a local grocery chain here. They also have a nutrition center where you can find all of your healthy diet needs from herbs to Nancy's yogurt. Freddy's got bought out by Kroger. I don't know if Kroger is the same kind of store.

quote:

---

However, here in Taiwan, all animal products are contaminated. Not even an organic shop (that sell meat, as far as I know) is around. Are organic shops common in the USA? Please let me know.

---

That is quite unfortunate to hear. I suppose if all animal products here were contaminated, I wouldn't want to eat them either.

These kinds of organic shops are quite common here. At least in the larger cities. I live near Portland, Oregon (10 minute drive), and I know there are a zillion of them over there. Zupan's is one name that comes to mind. As I said before, Trader Joe's is, I believe, a national chain... if not national, then very close to it.

I saw a documentary a while back about farming (mostly about the corn industry here in the US) and how it is KILLING the earth. Raping, even. It has been proven that small self sufficient farms that grow crops as well as livestalk are much more efficient and much better for the earth. A small farmer, whether or not the animals are sent off to slaughter, will care more for those animals than a large corporation would. How do we change this? Hon, I wish I knew. You let me know if you figure it out, and I'll have your back in the fight!

If we stop eating meat, where would we put all the animals? That's silly. There wouldn't be as many animals being bread for slaughter. There really wouldn't be anymore animals than there are now.

Dana, darling... don't give me credit for your realizations. You can only come to them on your own. My input may have helped you to realize, but the credit is all yours.

quote:

---

Veganism can be extremism- its teaching is to avoid all animal products and the use of any animal as far as possible. Does that mean I can't even ride a horse just because I shouldn't sit on it and force it to run? I enjoy horse-riding and I will not give it up.

---

Don't let those PETA nut-jobs make you question yourself. There is nothing wrong with horse back riding. Horses and humans can have a very special bond. I love horses. They are quite magnificent. Ride to your heart's content. I'm sure your horsie friend will only love you more for it.

Being a vegetarian is very hard, and you really have to stick to your guns or you will become unhealthy. As long as you see to it you get enough protein, b12, omega 3&6 fatty acids, and calories... you'll be fine. Problem is, many vegetarians tend to be a little lazy and their health can suffer from that. IMHO, better to be an omnivore than a lazy vegetarian (which I would surely be )

My dad is a vegetarian, and has been for almost 20 years. He does eat fish from time to time. He doesn't force his views on anyone. It is a personal choice. I appreciate that you have come to this conclusion too.

Thank you for this last post, Dana. I really didn't like the hostility that seemed to be building. I tend to get a little sinde and b*t*hy when I feel I'm being backed into a corner. For that, I hope you will accept my apology.

posted June 18, 2004 12:53 AM         

May the angel of your higher-self always guide and protect you.

posted June 18, 2004 05:12 PM         

Killing is wrong. It's as simple as that. When animals are being slaughtered, they suffer from immense pain and often die slowly. When they are alive, they go through tremendous torture that is the result of factory farming. In order to control the spread of epidemics, once again, as I repeatedly said before, antibiotics (along with hormones for rapid growth in order to meet the market demand) are injected into the animals. True, vegetables and fruit contain pesticide and hormones as well, but locally grown veg and fruit which contain little or no such toxic stuff are still available here in my town and I consume veg and fruit that are virtually free from such things. However, take the meat in Britain (I used to live in the UK) for instance, it was just stinking (I was even an omnivore then and I couldn't stand the smell. The meat in New Zealand is far better) and expensive, so most backpackers eventually choose not to eat meat due to its high prices. You may eat a balanced omnivore diet, and you may be on a balanced vegetarian/vegan diet, one is not necessarily better than the other. However, the more flesh you consume, the less fibre you get- flesh contains no fibre, and plant-based foods are rich in it.

You may consume fish twice or three times a week, which is recommended by a book written by a Taiwanese doctor. But he also points out that the water is so polluted and the only fish that are ideal to be consumed might only be found in high mountain lakes. IMO, no matter fish feel pain or not, no matter fish is a good energy source (as Gia said in the forum 'The real, sensible vegetarianism') or not, no matter fish are contaminated or not, they are flesh, bone and blood and my personal belief is that I won't eat anything that is flesh, bone and blood. That's just my individual Free Will choice.

Still, fish may be more ideal than red meat and poultry for omnivores. And fresh, organic fish doesn't make you nauseous, I've just realised that.

In 'The Food Revolution', John Robbins presents a long list of medal-winning and world record holding athletes who are vegetarians, this proves that vegetarians can obtain stamina, as long as they maintain a balanced diet and take appropriate supplements.

The reason why vitamin B-12 is only found in animal products is because animals consume micro-organism from wild, unwashed plants. Vitamin B-12 supplement is made from micro-organism and as vegans, we should take it everyday.

Vitamin B-12 can be found in unwashed vegetables and fruit because it's formed by bacteria. But for developing countries it is almost out of question to eat things that are unwashed. You might question that 'if a vegan diet is natural, why does it lack vitamin B-12?'

Our ancestors lived in wilderness and ate foods that were not thouroughly washed, that's how they got their B-12. It is natural.

There may be epidemics spread among farm animals, whether it's modern factorty farming or the old-fashion farming. In the old days, animals would have died, one by one, if they had become ill. Today, runners of factory farms use drugs to control diseases, and the majority of people eat the meat along with the drugs. On the contrary, epidemics rarely afflict crops, veg and fruit (though pesticide is used to prevent the products being eaten by pests), hence nowadays it's safer to eat more plant-based food than meat. Better still, eat vegan food only. Or at least eat less animal products than vegetables, fruit and whole grains.

Another theory is- we are all part of the food chain. You eat or you don't survive. You eat or you are eaten. Hunting is a sport, which demonstrates power, energy and courage but also brutality and cold-bloodedness. Back to the past when people bred their own farm animals and had to kill them eventually, wouldn't you feel sorry and sad that the animals are so in pain when being slaughtered?

The majority of vegans do look unhealthy, I admit it. But don't back down. There is the basic information on vegan nutrition (such as vitamin B-12 and much more) at www.vegansociety.com and they also have just published a book/booklet about more detailed vegan nutrition.

To be objective and more tolerant, eating fish once in a while, to be honest, as long as it's organic, unpolluted, then it can be beneficial. Nonetheless, once you're on a well-planned vegan diet, you need not worry about malnutrition.

posted June 20, 2004 05:57 PM         

That has been brought to my attention. I guess I was misinformed.

Dana,

I didn't see your last post until just now. I agree with almost everything you have to say. If nasty meat was the only meat available to me, I wouldn't eat it either. I also think that too much protein can be a bad thing (as Dr. Atkins has shown us). I don't eat large portions of meat because it makes me feel too full. To give you an idea: I usually share half a chicken breast with my two daughters. I usually have a salad on the side, and never use iceburg lettuce. Spinach, romane, and radicchio with whatever other raw veggies I have on hand. Kids hate salad, so they usually have raw carrots or lightly steamed broccoli. My younges LOVES steamed spinach, so I try to make that for her often.

We all have to walk our own personal paths. Whether they're Christian, Pagan (as I am), Muslim, vegetarian, vegan, omnivore... they're all personal choices we make for ourselves that reflect our own personal paths. It has not been proven that being a vegetarian is more healthy than being an omnivore... nor has the reverse been proven. Much like being a Christian or Muslim isn't the only path to spiritual enlightenment. We all have our own beliefs. The nice thing about beliefs is that they are not static and can change as we follow along our paths of learning. I have been a vegetarian in the past (for about a year and a half) and feel for me the omnivore lifestyle for myself and my family.

posted June 23, 2004 05:15 PM         

I don't think I spoke enough of how much I appreciate your open-mindedness, and willingness to learn.

I think I fell into the Arogant American role there for a while assuming (making an ass out of you and me) EVERYONE must have these typse of stores available to them. Everyone must know about them. For that I deeply apologize. One thing I always try to stay away from is arogance, and this time I've failed... but learned in the process, so I guess it balances out. I do know that I will not go on assuming anything about anyone here in LL... especially that they are from the US. I never looked at your profile, or where you were from (even though it was listed under your name). I just assumed. Not cool.

You are absolutely right that factory farming needs to be stopped. Rivers, lakes, ocean pollution. It's a mess. I personally think it revolves around apathy. I think most people have become apathetic to everything. They just don't want to bother with thinking about it. Just don't want to bother with it PERIOD. Pretty sad stuff.

I think even though I'm going to continue eating meat, and you're going to continue NOT eating it, we are very similar in our beliefs and desires to see our Earth, THE Mother Earth is cared for and respected as she should be. We took different paths to get here... but really, we're both in the same place.

I have a lot of respect for your convictions and how much personal power you have. Keep on keepin' on my friend. Do what you feel you have to do, and I bet you will be one of the many who make this realization of a clean Earth a reality.

posted July 04, 2004 04:17 PM         

You may find it hard to digest, but I must be completely honest with you- veganism is the best and it is for everyone. You try to be a vegetarian and you start feeling weak, everything goes wrong, it's merely because your system has been gravely poisoned, as Linda pointed out. Killing is wrong. Exploitation is wrong, even though it does not involve killing.

LibraSparkle talked about 'lazy vegetarians' who fail to take good care of themselves. The fact is, there are plenty of lazy omnivores as well, who just don't give a sh*t what they eat, and they start having cancer, heart disease and diabeties (I know all kinds of people may have such illnesses, vegans or non-vegans). The truth is, there are a great deal of vegans who are very well-informed and who are very careful about what they put into their bodies. You should see how the vegan communities function and interact with each other. Most people don't have the faintest idea what's going on in the vegan communities.

And Gia said in my other post 'The real, sensible vegetarianism' that 'Everything has life/energy in it. Everything!' and she stated that she consumed fish for its energy. What's the point when it's totally unnecessary to kill fish for its nutrients? The reality is, you can get everything you want from a balanced plant-based diet! With pollutants or without pollutants, fish are made of flesh and blood, and they have faces. You think they are different from other animals just because they can't smile and can't make a sound?

Exploitation also includes consuming eggs, dairy products and bee products. Don't call me fussy, vegans just truly care. And they can live pretty decent lives without any animal products.

I would like to apologise to PETA. I logged on to their web site just to check out what sort of work they do, and all seemed quite nataral to me. Today at London Vegan Festival I spoke to a representative of PETA and I also gathered some leaflets. Basically, I think what they try to do is to attract people's attention by taking some rather drastic actions at times, but apart from that, nothing's wrong with what they do. I've never got to know what PETA's work involves, and like I said, I must apologise for judging them without sufficient knowledge about their work. However, I personally think Viva! does a better job. It's only my personal opinion. Besides, I am still not familiar with PETA.

You can forget about Genesis. You can forget about human evolution. Fact is, veganism is the better option. You become ill after going veggie/vegan simply because you find yourself oppressing yourself, or you are very ill-informed, or, in rare cases, your psychological state influences your physical functions. Normally you would feel absolutely refreshed after becoming vegetarian/vegan. If you had watched read about or seen how farm animals are treated and how fishing is carried out you would never look back. You never need flesh. You never need animal products (unfortunately, this is not the case for diabetics who need insulin injections, which is animal-derived).

Some might think vegetarians/vegans are rather 'bigoted', as LibraSparkle put it, just like we veggies/vegans think most meat-eaters are rather indifferent and stubborn. It's about being judgemental. We need to communicate, I suppose.

As for horse back riding, I enjoy it, but I've realised it is a form of exploitation. I will make up my mind about it later.

Sorry about contradicting with myself all the time. Lastly, I would like to emphasise that killing is totally against nature, and so is exploitation. I'm not trying to accuse any one, I'm just saying we (not like, say, Inuits), or at least most of us, have a better choice, and that is veganism.