posted July 07, 2004 02:19 PM         

Processed veggie/vegan food may stimulate your taste buds, but the simpler the food you eat is the better. Natural, simple and unprocessed.

Stay away from cow's milk (or any other animal milk)- it causes osteoporosis, did you know? I'm not joking. Check the latest scientific studies. Read 'Diet for a New America' and 'The Food Revolution'.

posted July 07, 2004 05:21 PM         

It is the excess consumption of carbs, especially mineral-robbing sugar and refined flour that is making so many of us today ill. Vegan/vegetarians become healthier because they stop eating most of the junk.

Someone mentioned margarine as an acceptable form of fat/oil. Most margarines contain hardened fats. These are the vein clogging fats. Besides, ALL margarines, whether they are organic or not, are made of rancid oil.

BTW, it is impossible to store cholesterol in your veins in the abscense of insulin. It is impossible to store fat at all in the abscence of insulin. So it is not meat, and not pure fats making us fat and unhealthy, but the combination of hydrogenated (hardened) fats and sugar/flour.

There has never been ONE study that linked healthy "omnivorous" eating to increased cancer, heart attack, diabetes.

Of course, you are right with commercial farming. But the arguments you brought forth about the livestock are also true for produce. Can you swear to me you get ALL your food from certified local organic growers? How do you know that there is not the allowable 5% genetically engineered corn/wheat/esp. soya in your food?

I buy what I can from local farmers, including meat. I only buy organic eggs, and am willing to pay the extra buck or two for them--as I'm not willing to support animal cruelty (egg batteries). I try to watch what I and my family eats, but in this day and age, unless you grow all your own food, you cannot be certain that what you see is what you get.

I think we make ourselves sicker by convincing ourselves that this is good or that is bad.

But, that really full, bloated, tired feeling only comes when I eat too many carbs--never meat. Carbs are natural craving-makers. Being a recovered bulimic, I can remember endless times downing boxes of cereal, oatmeal, bread, buttered veggies, real fruit cakes etc. Never once did I have the feeling, I need to binge on pounds of meat. I never binged on ham or steak or ground beef. Why is that?

posted July 07, 2004 06:26 PM         

I'm with you all the way about Carbs. I think the one thing Mr. Atkins did have right was that refined flour is POISON just like refined sugar.

I would also like to thank you for pointing out that an omnivore diet has NEVER been proven to cause any kind of illness.

posted July 08, 2004 04:59 PM         

Personally, when I was a meat eater, I would feel rather sick after having eaten too much chicken (not just fried chicken). Fish was nice, though. As a vegan, I am not supposed to say something like this, but nevertheless I should just tell what I really think and what I think is: if you're an omnivore, go for (preferably unpolluted) fish. Fish doesn't make you sick, as I remember just now. By saying this, I would cause outrage from the fellow vegans/vegetarians who know me.

Nackie, I agree with you that too much carbohydrates makes you sick, too, but not in a way like meat, red meat in particular, for me. Perhaps it really depends on different individuals' different physical responses to food. As for margarin, true, most of the margarin available in shops is made from hydrogeneted oil and is therefore extremely unhealthy. I would buy vegan butter which is made from soya and sunflower oil (...I'm not too sure if I recall it correctly...sunflower oil?), which is different from the common margarin. And again, true, refine flour is just as bad as refine sugar. That's for sure.

And LibraSparkle, I also agree with you that some or many tomatoes grown nowadays are injected with fish ingredients for genetical engineering, so some veggies/vegans may not even be aware that they've been eating animal ingredients. Let's face it- animal ingredients are everywhere. I still buy facial wash cream which contains glycerine, and I just don't bother verifying with the manufacturers whether it's plant-based or animal-derived. Pure vegan cosmetics products are very expensive and I can't afford them. I just don't think it's such a big deal. When I'm ill and I must take medicine which is in capsule form (capsules are made from gelatine), I just take it, because I'm sick, it's as simple as that. I heard that Linda McCartney died of breast cancer because she wouldn't take medication that was tested on animals. If I were her, I would rather take the drugs to stay alive. Again, I just don't think it's such a big deal. If I have been eating tomatoes which have been injected with fish materials, then I don't see why I should be 100% strict.

Are there really that many organic farms on which animals are raised for consumption? Can somebody answer this question for me? Are there really that many resources? The point is, even if we still carry on eating meat and other animal products, the whole factory farming system should be changed, step by step, because it is utterly cruel, which does not allow the animals to live without extra torture like the old days, and it spreads epidemics. I would suggest that omnivores who are unwilling to become vegetarians/vegans cut down their consumption of meat and other animal products, such as dairy, so their diets can remain balanced and the factory farming system can eventually become history. In the past, farm animals used to be treated more humanely when they were alive, and that's the main difference between it and modern factory farming. We need a revolution, if not a vegetarian/vegan one. And the revolution will take time, which is completely normal.

I know how omnivores perceive vegetarians, and vegans especially- that their attitudes are too bigoted (as LibraSparkle put it) and too fussy. I agree that their (or should I say 'our'?) behaviour may seem too extreme and even aggressive when responding to meat eaters. I've become much more tolerant now. I am surrounded by people who eat meat, we share the same kitchen and I don't mind at all, unlike most other vegans. I've also realised that extreme ways don't help to promote vegetarianism/veganism at all, so all I'm going to say is-

Nothing really matters. I choose to believe that I should not consume animal products because for me, it's more ethical and healthier. But there's no need to be angry with people who eat meat and other animal products, as some (at least some) vegans do. We are just people after all, and people are people, if you see what I mean. When I look at the meat on people's plate, I no longer feel any fury, unlike most other vegans would. It may make me a little bit sick, though, but not really. I feel more peaceful now. Personally, I still firmly believe that veganism is the best diet, but it's a matter of choice

posted July 08, 2004 05:23 PM         

Can you point to a study that proves omnivore diets cause illness.

I could believe that about CARNIVORE diets... but omnivore?

posted July 09, 2004 03:34 AM         

You can check out the books 'Diet for a New America' and 'The Food Revolution', both by John Robbins. However, I do agree with you that a balanced omnivorous diet can keep you healthy, just as a balanced veggie/vegan diet does. Am I contradicting myself again??

BTW, Danielle, could you please tell me more about your local organic farms where animals are raised for consumption- I really would like to know how they have so many resources.

Love & peace

posted July 09, 2004 04:58 AM         

Who was it who said, "I only believe the statistics that I put together myself."

Please, show me ONE study where high-carb, low fat diets are better than higher protein, lower carb diets? Because, when you get down to it, that is what the debate bottoms out to.

Please explain to me how you believe our ancestors ate 20,000 years ago. And then please explain to me why you believe that 20,000 short years are enough to turn the human species from omnivores into herbavores. Evolution isn't THAT fast.

I try to eat as close to nature as possible, in a way that is befitting the animal "human". I wouldn't force my cat to eat dog food, I wouldn't make birds eat bear food. But humans are made to eat meat. The people who feel "sick" after eating meat have something (physiologically) wrong with them, or they are conditioned in their head to believe that. If the meat is too high if fat, then yes that can happen. But good, natural meat (which doesn't have to be high in fat) will not make you sick. Meat alone is very easily digested, if slowly. It keeps the blood sugar levels constant and the pancrease doesn't get overworked.

Anyways, that's enough for today lol.

posted July 09, 2004 12:34 PM         

Many of the local farmers choose to do so organically. I would imagine it would be more cost effective for them anyhow... that is IF they are raising livestalk and crops (which most do). We have a weekly Farmer's Market where you can go and buy fresh and mostly organic produce. The local farmers also sell their NONCAGED, naturally bred eggs to local nutritional stores. In this city there are three natural markets, Wild Oats, Nature's Market Place, and Trader Joes. I shop between the three to try to get the best deals. Generally I get coffee and cat food from Trader Joes because the prices are best there. Wild Oats and Nature's Market Place BOTH sell any herbs you can imagine and also BOTH have a Naturpathic DR. on staff during normal business hours. All three stores sell organic produce and cruelty free meat and eggs. Wild Oats and Natures both have a deli inside where you can get 'fast food' in a healthy way.

posted July 11, 2004 02:57 PM         

And Nackie, I do believe 20,000 years is enough for human beings to evolve from omnivores into vegans (I wouldn't use the word 'herbivores'), and human bodies do digest meat slowly, which proves that meat is not for humans. As for feeling sick after having eaten meat, I would say it really depends on different individuals' different responses to food, as I mentioned in an earlier post. AS I SAID, as a vegan, I do believe veganism is the best, but unlike other vegans, I do recognise that if you're on a BALANCED omnivorous diet, you still can live quite healthily and even achieve longivity, which I won't deny. However, if you eat today's factory farming products, you'll get ill for sure. It's not like the old days any more. Better take Danielle's experience as reference and buy locally grown organic foods, meat or not meat, that is, if you don't intend to become a vegan. When you're on a BALANCED (even a vegan diet can be unbalanced) vegan diet, you can live healthily, too, and may as well achieve longivity, provided that you don't encounter accidents or that you don't have other bad habits eg. smoking, alcoholism etc. If you read John Robbins' 'Diet for a New America' and 'The Food Revolution', you'll get to know more evidence on how omnivorous diets can effect you in a negative way. Nonetheless, as I've just said, as long as it's balanced, you can live healthily. Unfortunately, I'm on holiday at the moment and I don't have the books/statistics with me so I can't give those to you now. Maybe later, but I won't get back home for quite a while.

I said 'nothing really matters'. But, what really matters is killing and exploiting. If you had to kill the animals yourself, you may be able to see what I mean.

posted July 15, 2004 06:08 AM         

Without meat man would never had made it from primate to human. Without the extra protein, the brain couldn't develop into it's size. So although primates are mainly herbivore, and we are descended from primates, we are NOT primates and have different dietary needs from them.

A little chihuahua and a big labrador are both dogs, but have very different nutritional requirements.

To each his own, but I hate it when meat-eaters are put down as unenlightened. Or stupid.

posted July 15, 2004 05:43 PM         

Like I pointed out earlier, just because you're a veggie/vegan doesn't necessarily mean you're a better person. On the other hand, just because you're an omnivore doesn't necessarily mean you're stupid. But you would be apparently not well-informed, for sure. If you were well-informed, you would know that killing animals is unnecessary cruelty and as a matter of fact, there are many famous sports people who are vegetarians/vegans. I'll post the list when I get back home in mid-August. It's not with me at the moment.

I apologise for being such an inconsistent b*tch. The truth is, I should care more. We all should. I carefully choose the mouth rinse I use because most brands contain glycerine. From now on, when I need to take medicine, I will take tablets instead of capsules. Once I bought a bottle of conditioner and I realised there was glycerine in it and I contacted the company and later they told me it was plant-based glycerine. I will be more careful whenever I purchase toiletries and cosmetics.

I watched a video the other day, which was about animal experiments and the interviewees included vets and a former animal experiment scientist, who testified against animal experiments, citing that due to humans' and other animals' different body functions, the results from animal experiments usually fail to succeed in healing human bodies. In that case, it is pointless to take medication which has been tested on animals. Besides, you should see how those creatures undergo painful procedures without anaesthetics.

This is a new era. We need not kill. No more.

posted July 16, 2004 01:57 AM         

I am well informed. And I posses the self-assurance to say, yes, I LIKE meat and I eat it because it's good for me. I do not eat processed foods, and IF I buy one can of food then it is the only sauerkraut that my child likes to eat. There are no canned goods, no packaged foods, no cookies and chocolates in my house. But there is meat from the organic farmer, who slaughters his own cattle.

As to animal testing, just becuase I eat meat doesn't mean I'm not opposed to animal testing. And yes, you are VERY inconsistent in your statements, as one page back you claimed NOT to worry about what kind of glycerine is in your cosmetics, because you can't afford the vegan stuff and that you don't want to take it too far. Now you suddenly do care, and have cared in the past. At least be honest and stick to your ideals. Killing was always necessary and always will be. If not through humans than through the regualtory actions of other predators. This is not Nemo, and you won't really find the "fish are friends" self-help shark group.

And btw, just because many "famous" people are vegetarians, doesn't make me change my mind one bit. As my mother used to say "if they all jumped off the bridge..." I can point out just as many "famous people" who do the Zone or LowCarb or are just normal eaters. Just because they are famous doesn't make them diet-experts.

posted August 01, 2004 07:33 PM         

Ridgely Abele- Karate national champion

BJ Armstrong- US basketball star

Surya Bonaly (vegan)- Olympic figure skating champion

Peter Burwash- Davis cup winner

Andreas Cahling- Body-building champion

Chris Campbell- Olympic wrestling champion

Nicky Cole- First woman to walk the North Pole

Di Edwards- Runner, Olympic semi-finalist

Clare Francis- Sailor

Ruth Heidrich- 6-time Ironwoman

Sally Hibberd- British women's mountain bike champion

Keith Holmes- World-champion middleweight boxer

Desmond Howard- Professional football star

Peter Hussing- European super heavy-weight boxing champion

Kathy Johnson- Olympic gymnast

Debbie Lawrence- Women's 5K racewalk- world record holder

Judy Leden- British, European and World women's hang-gliding champion

Sixto Linares- 24-hour triathlon world record holder

Carl Lewis (vegan)- Winner of 6 Olympic gold medals

Cheryl Marek and Estelle Gray- Cross-country tandem cycling world record holders

Ingra Manecki- Discus thrower- world champion

Bill Manetti- Power-lifting champion

Ben Matthews- US master's marathon champion

Robert Millar- Cyclist

Dan Millman- World champion gymnast

Ed Moses- Olympic gold medallist twice at 400m hurdles

Martina Navratilova- Legendary tennis champion with 166 titles, 9-time Wimbledon champion

Paavo Nurmi- Long-distance runner, winner of 9 Olympic medals and 20 world records

Judith Oakley (vegan)- Cross-country runner and 3-time Welsh Mountain Bike and Cyclocross champion

Bill Pearl- Four-time winner of Mr Universe

Bill Pickering- World record-holding swimmer

Stan Price- World weightlifting record holder

Murray Rose- Swimmer- winner of many Olympic gold medals and world records

Dave Scott- 6-time winner of the Ironman Triathlon of America

Emmil Watson- Gladiators winner for England

Jane Welzel- US national marathon champion

Charlene Wong Williams- Olympic champion figure skater

They are not just 'celebrities'. These are sportspeople who are excellent proof of the fact that you can obtain stamina through a balanced vegetarian/vegan diet.

(Source: Viva!)

posted August 01, 2004 08:17 PM         

There cannot be sufficient organic animal farms. There are simply not as many farmers as there were before. If everybody wants to eat meat, factory-farming will still be inevitable, which is a system that causes epidemics, human consumption of injected antibiotics and other drugs, insanity of the farm-animals (which is part of the cruelty) and a great deal more disasters. In order to satisfy the market demand, we are running out of space for keeping the animals, grains for feeding them, the farmers tend to spend as little time as possible to have the animals grown and keep their expenses as low as possible. I know this may not be the first time you hear this, but why not save the land to grow food for the starving people instead of growing feed for the massive numbers of farm-animals? And btw, it's a matter of choice whether you believe that you don't need meat or any other animal products to keep you healthy or not.

Has anyone heard about how over-fishing has been damaging the eco-system? Human beings have, on the one hand, driven many wild species to distinction and, on the other hand, been 'producing' farm-animals in mass quantity, that's what we've been doing- causing damage. In my country, most of the predators are in the zoos, and there are not even that many of them.

Once again, I know I've said this quite a few times before, but if you really are interested in the pros and cons of omnivorous diets and vegetarian diets, have a look at 'Diet for a New America' and 'The Food Revolution' (both by John Robbins), it's all in there.

I'm done with this bit and I will not respond to any future replies.