posted November 09, 2008 01:32 AM         

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Gandhi was a vegetarian. So was Hitler. It goes without saying that Hitler didn't give a damn about the plight of cows. Gandhi was an essentially moral man. Hitler was not.

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Sure, Hitler was a vegetaria; for health reasons, I think.
But, again, whatever the reasons, we can at least say,
there was one holocause he did not contribute to.

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HITLER WAS NOT A VEGETARIAN. READ FURTHER- Adolf Hitler would even have cooked birds served for his guests and himself...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_hitler#Health

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After the early 1930s, Hitler generally followed a vegetarian diet, although he ate meat on occasion.

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As long as Hitler did eat meat on occasion, that makes him a meat eater, a non-vegetarian. The "Hitler was a vegetarian" myth is hereby invalid.
http://www.peta.org/about/faq.asp

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“Wasn’t Hitler in favor of animal rights?”

Although the Nazis claimed to pass an anti-vivisection bill, they did not. In fact, they were required by law to perform experiments on animals before carrying them out on humans. Experiments on humans did not replace animal experiments; on the contrary, animal experiments made them possible. In The Dark Face of Science, John Vyvyan summed it up correctly, “The experiments made on prisoners were many and diverse, but they had one thing in common: All were in continuation of, or complementary to experiments on animals. In every instance, this antecedent scientific literature is mentioned in the evidence; and at Buchenwald and Auschwitz concentration camps, human and animal experiments were carried out simultaneously as parts of a single programme.”

However, even if this weren’t the case, the merits of an idea cannot be determined by the character of its proponents. If Hitler believed in evolution, would that mean that we should not believe in evolution? What if Gandhi also believed in evolution? How would we reconcile the two? An idea must be judged on its own merits.

For more information on this topic, we recommend the book Hitler: Neither Vegetarian nor Animal Lover by Rynn Berry, available here.

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Hitler: Neither Vegetarian Nor Animal Lover (Paperback)
by Rynn Berry (Author), Martin Rowe (Introduction) "I AM DELIGHTED THAT RYNN BERRY ASKED me to contribute an introduction to his book Hitler: Neither Vegetarian Nor Animal Lover-a greatly expanded version of..." (more)
Key Phrases: stuffed squab, famous vegetarians, liver dumplings, New York, Adolf Hitler, Dione Lucas (more...)

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This book is available at Amazon.com.

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I dont know if there is anyone who is allergic to all those things,
and who could not find adequate substitutes other than meat.
If someone really is in that boat, I would make a greater allowance for them

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Soya allergy and gluten allergy have been well-discussed in the vegan community. There are people with such difficult allergies and still research hard to find ways to stick to vegetarianism/veganism and maintain their well-being and quality of life. If one blames her or his apathy and lethargy on vegetarianism, that's not being fair. If one's all for it, she or he will search further for ways to conquer the difficulties they have encountered while being vegetarian.

www.ivu.org

D

posted November 13, 2008 06:47 AM         

that is so far beside the point.

hitler was a psychopath.

nobody is saying that all vegetarians are spiritual.

but, it is a mark of the spiritual life.

just one mark.

a truly compassionate person does not kill innocent animals to satisfy vain appetites.

posted November 13, 2008 09:59 PM         

For the sake of argument I mentioned Hitler's vegetarianism. But, you're right, he did on occasion eat meat. Eating meat only ocasionally won't close anyone's chakras and no doubt he knew it. So why not, right?

While I haven't yet achieved psychopath status, I'm also many light years away from being truly compassionate. And yet, I'm a vegetarian. *shrugs* However that fits into the equation.

posted November 14, 2008 12:36 PM         

>>>Osho also says to forget all history, especially Hitler

Cool. I have forgiven Hitler. In nature better species were created by survival of the strongest. Who the heck are we to judge anyone? That chapter is closed and we need to move on.

posted November 22, 2008 12:21 AM         

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Gandhi was a vegetarian. So was Hitler. It goes without saying that Hitler didn't give a damn about the plight of cows. Gandhi was an essentially moral man. Hitler was not.

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So I've found your orginal quote...

See
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/002249.html

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When I was a fanatical vegetarian

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a while back I joined this site and completely went crazy on the subject of veganism

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Not all vegetarians and vegans are fanatics or "crazy", and vegetarians and vegans should not be labeled as "fanatics". That's not fair, and you know it. I've met many types of vegans, from the truly fanatical and hypocritical sort to the peaceful, non-proselytizing, tolerant, compassionate ones. They are just like the average people, who vary from one individual to another. One off-putting vegan cannot represent all the vegetarians and vegans.

posted November 22, 2008 06:32 AM         

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While I haven't yet achieved psychopath status, I'm also many light years away from being truly compassionate. And yet, I'm a vegetarian. *shrugs* However that fits into the equation.

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It fits perfectly into my equation, TINK. Maybe you need some help with your math?

Only if you were a truly compassionate person who ate meat would it not fit the equation.

But, even then, only very strictly, since,
as I have repeated, this is merely one mark,
and not any sort of litmus test.

Thanks for playing.

posted November 22, 2008 06:38 AM         

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Not all vegetarians and vegans are fanatics or "crazy", and vegetarians and vegans should not be labeled as "fanatics".

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Right on!

And just because they speak out doesnt make them fanatics either.

If someone can question my spiritual development for smoking a plant, I can certainly question theirs for killing an animal.

posted November 22, 2008 08:42 AM         

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So, being vegetarian will not make you more spiritual,
but, being spiritual will make you a vegetarian.
The change in diet is an effect, and not a cause, of the spiritual life.

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Lovely I think that's very often how it works. Not always of course. I have met people who became vegetarians for the worst reasons - arrogance, pride, an insatiable need to contradict etc.

posted November 22, 2008 08:52 AM         

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When I was a fanatical vegetarian

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Not all vegetarians and vegans are fanatics or "crazy", and vegetarians and vegans should not be labeled as "fanatics". That's not fair, and you know it. I've met many types of vegans, from the truly fanatical and hypocritical sort to the peaceful, non-proselytizing, tolerant, compassionate ones. They are just like the average people, who vary from one individual to another. One off-putting vegan cannot represent all the vegetarians and vegans.

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posted November 22, 2008 02:25 PM         

I heard you say you are a vegetarian, twice.

I am not making any assumption there.

But, you assumed I was,
because you dont read me carefully.

I've made solid points.

You've basically said:
"Denouncing murder is bad,
but denouncing smoking pot is okay."

I haven't cast aspersions on your motives there.

My motive for not eating meat is perfectly clear,
and there is no need to be overly suspicious,
or to go on repeating that point...
yes, we know some have less than noble motives,
and I agreed with you and responded to that already.

Sorry to be so rude in my earlier response,
but your tone annoys me, because its so sarcastic,
and, yet, you are just so wrong.

posted November 22, 2008 09:21 PM         

Another brilliant cop-out from TINK, who is so above it, she won't deign to respond to actual points being made. Its much easier for you to act like I am simply bullying you, demanding obedience and submission.. but that sounds more like your philosophy than mine. Look, if you dont have the stomach for a real discussion, just say so. But dont keep coming in here, making the same tired and long-defeated points, casting aspersions on my motives, and then storming (or slinking) out all self-righteously when I dare to address you as an equal and expect you to answer specific points in the ongoing discussion, like an ordinary person. I'm not the one demading agreement here, TINK, and then bowing out when it isnt laid at my feet. I'm making real arguments, and showing you enough respect to actually consider and respond to your points. Maybe you'd rather I just ignore your responses, or reply with nothing but empty judgements, suspicions, accusations, flippant sarcasm, emotional reactions, and condescending evasive maneuvers? Sorry, not my style.

posted November 22, 2008 10:33 PM         

I don't demand agreement here. If people want to eat meat, that's fine with me. If they don't want to eat meat, that's fine too. I'm not judging anyone. I'm not judging you. I do think that eventually vegetarianism will be the norm and I do believe that those consciousely treading a spiritual path will naturally find themselves eating less and less meat, but I'm not going to drag anyone kicking and screaming into the fold. That's where I stand, for better or worse. Tear me apart if you feel necessary, but please try to bear this mind - not every observation that I make is directed towards you. Some remarks are general and theoretical.

posted November 23, 2008 12:41 AM         

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Do you ever grow tired of this? Is everything reduced to a battle of wits, a daring duel to the death for you? Is absolutely everything to be taken personally? I wonder.

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Don't be so dramatic. I'm just trying to find people who are serious, and wont abandon the discussion, or take it backwards, when it is finally about to bear fruit and make some progress.

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I don't demand agreement here. If people want to eat meat, that's fine with me. If they don't want to eat meat, that's fine too. I'm not judging anyone. I'm not judging you. I do think that eventually vegetarianism will be the norm and I do believe that those consciousely treading a spiritual path will naturally find themselves eating less and less meat, but I'm not going to drag anyone kicking and screaming into the fold. That's where I stand, for better or worse.

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Thats where I stand too, so, I dont know why you give me so much flack.

I continue debating it because I continue to disagree with what's been said.

It takes two. I'm not dragging anybody along here.

Anyone who is willing to discuss it seriously will have my full attention.

That's all.

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Tear me apart if you feel necessary, but please try to bear this mind - not every observation that I make is directed towards you. Some remarks are general and theoretical.

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I've said the same thing to you, in so many words.
The thing is, I tend to be very direct when I do have a person in mind.
But you mostly talk in this general way, while, much of the time,
you are clearly referring to a specific person on the forum.
You know I am right. You do things in this sneaky (or "skilled"), indirect way,
so, how can you possibly imagine that I will not suspect you are targeting me?
Tell me the truth. Were you really not thinking of me,
when you typed that transparent line about contradicting everything?

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Now you tell me which of your points you'd like me to address and I'll do my very best to respectfully respond, if that will make you feel better. But if you're looking for another blood drenched bar fight, you're not going to get one from me.

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Okay...

Why do you make derrogatory remarks about my use of psychotropic substances,
and how that relates to my path and the possibility of my having genuine insights,
yet, you think it would be tyrannical to say similar things about
the imprisoning, torturing, and slaughtering of innocent creatures?

The insight about spirituality being the cause, not the effect,
may be applied to just about anything you can think of,
including my smoking pot, and living my life the way I do,
and, yet, while you use this argument to defend people who eat meat,
you have no problem pressuring me to make changes in those "effects".

posted November 23, 2008 02:33 AM         

Let's dive in, shall we?

Don't be so dramatic. I'm just trying to find people who are serious, and wont abandon the discussion, or take it backwards, when it is finally about to bear fruit and make some progress.

Yes, I do think you get a bit a dramatic with this need to debate everything.
HSC, I'm a serious sort of person. I take the most menial, trivial shiit seriously. I actually consider this one of my many failings. I'm learning to ease up in my old age, but it's slow going.
How have I abandoned the discussion? I'm right here. I'm not sure what "take it backwards" might mean, so I can't respond to that.

Thats where I stand too, so, I dont know why you give me so much flack.

I continue debating it because I continue to disagree with what's been said.

It takes two. I'm not dragging anybody along here.

So, you think we stand in the same place but we disagree, so you're debating?

I've said the sae thing to you, in so many words.
The thing is, I tend to be very direct when I do have a person in mind.
But you mostly talk in this general way, while, much of the time,
you are clearly referring to a specific person on the forum.
You know I am right. You do things in this sneaky (or "skilled"), indirect way,
so, how can you possibly imagine that I will not suspect you are targeting me?
Tell me the truth. Were you really not thinking of me,
when you typed that transparent line about contradicting everything?

No, I don't know you're right. In fact, you're being a bit paranoid.
No, I wasn't thinking of you. I don't find you to be a contradictory person in general. I think you'd gladly argue with me should I foolishly claim the sun will rise tomorrow, but that's a specific issue not a personality trait.
I was thinking of myself and my step-daughter's boyfriend, Kevin.

Why do you make derrogatory remarks about my use of psychotropic substances,
and how that relates to my path and the possibility of my having genuine insights,
yet, you think it would be tyrannical to say similar things about
the imprisoning, torturing, and slaughtering of innocent creatures?

This really bothers you, doesn't it? I don't imagine you'd be bringing this old thing up again - it happened how long ago? - unless it was bothering you. Why?

I think psychotropic substances are spiritually dangerous in a way all the quarterpounders in the world could never hope to be. I was actually geniunely concerned for you, as I would be for anyone in that circumstance. You can't calmly discuss this because you're attached and hence defensive. Understandable. So I let it go.
If you truly feel that eating a hotdog is on par with pyschedelic visions, then by all means mention this to the next carnivore you meet. They'll more than likely tell you to go to hell, like you did me. No hard feelings on my end. Fair enough, yes?

Lastly, I think it is funny how you commend Mannu on "thinking outside the box",
while, at the same time, constantly giving me sh-t for same.
Especially when his ideas, like the Gandhi thing, come from Osho,
or, are just so totally off the wall that only a nut would take them seriously.
His arrogance, rudeness, bluntness, and bullsh-t put my own to shame,
but you hop to applaud him, and scurry to overlook these faults,
while, again, taking every opportunity to call me out on anything remotely assertive.

Jealous much?

Mannu is a difficult read, to be sure, but that's his charm and he's brilliant if you look at him the right way. In my opinion, he does think outside that box. If I thought you did, I'd say so. Please understand ... I'm not saying you're an idiot. Of course you're intelligent. Mannu just has a rare gift.

posted November 23, 2008 02:36 AM         

That's a little sick. To personally dislike someone I could barely claim to know at all? Someone I've never even met? That's not really the world I live in.
For the record - I've never seen LTT post anything that would make anyone dislike her. She's been a thoroughly sweet person here.

You dont even realize how transparent so many of your slights are.
And then you come into my birthday thread and say some stuff,
and its like you dont even realize how condescending it is;
at least, not until it gets said back to you.
I honestly think you believe you are more advanced than I am
(although, you may deny this, simply as a matter of dogmatic necessity),
while, what I see from you is just a lot of self-importance and insincerity.
No, you dont go on diatribes, because, lets face it, you dont have much to say.
But you constantly take these little nibbles and then swim away,
and deny any kind of responsibility for the things you are saying.
This is why I continue to have a problem with you.
And you can claim detachment, and repeat a lot of spiritual jargon,
but we both know you are just as emotionally invested as I am.
You dont dare show it on the surface all at once,
but you cant stay away, either; you've just got to nibble.
And I still think you are a complex person, a lot like myself,
and that you identify with those principles at times,
and have a capacity for humility and tolerance and all that.
And I would like to have more civil dealings with you,
but just when I try to look kindly on you, you start nibbling!
Then, you make an effort to come out of your hermetic shell,
and you candidly show something of yourself, and its beautiful,
and I start to see you as human, but, a minute later, you delete that,
and go back to your habitual pose as TINK on the mountain.
You are so full of sh-t, and that, more than anything, disturbs me.
If you would just say what you think and feel, from your heart,
without all the smokescreens and indirect allusions,
and without all the silly posturing, I could really like you,
and your views, however offensive in themselves,
would not upset me nearly as much as they do now.
But you play these games, you take nibbles,
and then, when I come right out and openly discuss it,
you try to paint me as bloodthirsty and all that bull, lol.
To me, it looks sneaky, underhanded, insincere, and cowardly.
But, whatever... you do things your way, I'll do them mine.

I've told you several times that I don't think I'm better, smarter, more refined, more evolved, etc than you are. I can easily think of a dozen people here now or in the recent past who are way more ahead of the game than I am. You can choose to believe me or you succomb to your own feelings of insecurity. It's up to you. Don't blame it on me.

My hermetic shell? HSC, this is the internent. If you hope to see me spill my innermost guts all over such a public domain, please brace yourself for a huge disappointment. If you or others feel comfortable doing so, more power to you. I don't generally feel the need. I purge with a few good friends and family. You'll probably consider that a weakness, but it's what works for me. See, here's the thing, Stephen ... I don't need you to like me.

Other than the first few lines, the deleted post in UC was mostly written for Kat, who I found interesting. Basically, I wanted her take. I deleted it for the reasons I already gave and, frankly, because you were there and I decided I didn't feel up to dealing with any critical remarks you might have tossed my way. Let's be honest, you're not exactly full of compliments and I didn't want the thread to descend into ... well, to descend into what this one has become.

So, I'm fulll of shiiit, huh? You try to look kindly on me? You could really like me and my views, however offensive? When you start to see me as human???

Well, gee, that's decent of you, isn't it? Are you serious? You got me there, bud. I don't know what the hell to say to that. You're pretty emotional about this it seems .... I'm not faulting you for that, I'm just not sure what to make of it. I'm a little taken aback. So I'll just let that sit and speak for itself.

The paint's dry. How'd I do?

posted November 23, 2008 02:55 AM         

My first reaction was less than ideal.

Let's try this again...

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How have I abandoned the discussion? I'm right here.

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Yes, you are here now. You came back, after I called you out. But the post I was replying to went something like this: "You're right, HSC. I'm just so completely wrong and you're absolutely correct. My math sucks and my ability to appreciate you're compassionate wisdom isn't much better. I'll try harder next time." Thats what I mean by abandoning the discussion. I made rational points, and you pulled the usual disappearing act, pretending you were merely under attack from my runaway ego.

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So, you think we stand in the same place but we disagree, so you're debating?

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Again, refering to the last thing you said, where you finally clarified your position, and not to what was said before that. If you would state your position clearly in the first place, instead of encouraging people's assumptions, we could save a lot of time. Now, the only thing I disagree with is why you think someone is fanatical to raise their voice and debate in the name of animal rights. And that is what your position boils down to, at least, as you've portrayed it thus far.

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I don't know you're right. In fact, you're being a bit paranoid.
No, I wasn't thinking of you. I don't find you to be a contradictory person in general. I think you'd gladly argue with me should I foolishly claim the sun will rise tomorrow, but that's a specific issue not a personality trait.
I was thinking of myself and my step-daughter's boyfriend, Kevin.

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I guess I'll have to take your word for it, despite the fact that this phrase jumped out at another knowflake when she read it, and she also assumed it was a reference to me. I guess we are both paranoid. In any case, I'd say the ambiguity worked out very conveniently for you. How silly of me to think that would be directed at me. I wonder how many other silly, paranoid people read it and made the same mistake.

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This really bothers you, doesn't it? I don't imagine you'd be bringing this old thing up again - it happened how long ago? - unless it was bothering you. Why?

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I'm honest enough to admit that it bothers me still, yes. Scorpios tend to hold on to stuff like that, you know? And when I see the irony between your comments then and your comments now, yes, I will bring it up if I think it helps illuminate your hippocrisy. I dont think I've received an apology on that yet, so, I'd say its still fair game. And dont tell me that you have not brought up stuff I've said or done months ago. The "rain on your psychedelic parade" was a while back, but you've made comments about the smoking fairly recently, and I see no reason to think you have resolved to keep them to yourself in the near future. Have you? So, again, fair game.

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I think psychotropic substances are spiritually dangerous in a way all the quarterpounders in the world could never hope to be.

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Beef is the number one cause of death, according to at least one of the doctors I quoted earlier in this thread. And there is no telling the damage its doing on more subtle levels, contributing to that genocide. Although we do have numerous quotes from various recognized spiritual authorities attesting to its harmfulness. And, lastly, I've never seen a quaterpounder do this:

"The most significant single event of my life happened on March 6, 1961 when Tim Leary gave me psilocybin. I've taken it hundreds of times since then; LSD and all of them... And I can honestly say that what happened to me in 1961 was so - whatever it was, I am still growing into it now. That it has guided the course of my life. That it cut through at such a profound level my ability to keep people as them. And though I've tried (because this culture is very good at keeping everybody as them, so that you're almost totally alienated), whatever it was that happened to me then keeps undercutting my ability to distance myself from other people in my mind without realizing I'm doing a mind-trip on myself. Because the inner validity of the experience of us was so profound."
~ Ram Dass (bestselling author and spiritual teacher)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mReRUfZf0_w&feature=related

Spiritually dangerous indeed. Pardon me if I dont play it safe after hearing a story like that.

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I was actually geniunely concerned for you, as I would be for anyone in that circumstance. You can't calmly discuss this because you're attached and hence defensive. Understandable. So I let it go.

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Again, I'll have to take your word for it, that your primary motive was innocent, despite the sarcastic, judgemental tone of your comments at the time. And, yes, I am attached, as I am to most topics of concern to me, and as you are to most topics of concern to you. God willing, we can still practice some degree of objectivity. You call upon whatever it is you have in your chart, and I'll call upon my Uranian stellium, my Aquarius Moon, Aquarius 1st house, Sun and Moon parallel Uranus, and lack of planets in the personal houses (1 -6; the only planet there is the Aqua Moon), and see if I can muster a little objectivity for you, okay? And just because I am passionate doesnt mean my thinking is distorted on the issue of psychedelics. I happen to be in very good company, as the above quote ought to show.

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If you truly feel that eating a hotdog is on par with pyschedelic visions, then by all means mention this to the next carnivore you meet. They'll more than likely tell you to go to hell, like you did me. No hard feelings on my end. Fair enough, yes?

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When did I tell you to go to hell?

I'm not sure what you mean about it being on par. My position, which ought to be pretty clear to you by now, is that eating a hot dog is on par with killing and eating an infant. No, of course, not according to the subjective experience of the eater, but, considering the matter objectively. If a pig is as smart as an infant (and I hear pigs are smarter than dogs), and has feelings and fears just as an infant does.. you do the math; think objectively, and it wont be difficult. On the other hand, psychedelic visions, which are not mere hallucinations, -- at least, not in my case, nor in the case of Ram Dass, and many other like-minded people, -- can often be on par with realizations experienced by only the most.. experienced mystics.

And I reserve the right to have hard feelings until I have processed them in my own good time. Fair enough?

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Jealous much?

Mannu is a difficult read, to be sure, but that's his charm and he's brilliant if you look at him the right way. In my opinion, he does think outside that box. If I thought you did, I'd say so. Please understand ... I'm not saying you're an idiot. Of course you're intelligent. Mannu just has a rare gift.

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I read this earlier and almost gave up on you for good, TINK. I'll leave this one alone.

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That's a little sick. To personally dislike someone I could barely claim to know at all? Someone I've never even met? That's not really the world I live in.

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What are you, some kind of saint? Everyone I know experiences both sympathies and antipathies with people outside of their direct, personal space. There is nothing sick about this, and I refuse to believe that you dont experience those feelings, whether you believe it yourself or not, and whether or not you call them "personal". You've made rude and emotional remarks to me on numerous occassions, and, whether or not this signifies something "personal" to you, it certainly does to me. And I think anyone else who is the target of it must feel similarly. If you can say some of the things you've said, you could probably write a post like that just to mess with someone. And, anyway, can you fault me for being suspicious of your sincerity? I mean, I just find it difficult to think of Mannu that way, and I doubt anyone other than yourself finds it much easier.

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For the record - I've never seen LTT post anything that would make anyone dislike her. She's been a thoroughly sweet person here.

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But even if she had been a total b*tch, only a "sick" person would dislike her for that, right? Unless they knew her personally. That was your point, yes?

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I've told you several times that I don't think I'm better, smarter, more refined, more evolved, etc than you are. I can easily think of a dozen people here now or in the recent past who are way more ahead of the game than I am.

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Oh, please. Our tactics are utterly different, and the tactics you try to emulate are what you see as refined, etc., while you have only criticisms for my own approach. And those dozen people.. is their style anything like mine, or do they tend to stick to those terse, impersonal little ironic nibbles you are so fond of? I have no doubt that this is what you deem "refined, etc." Honestly, TINK, I dont know what ever gave me the idea that you looked down on me. Maybe it was when you told me I was "just an unwitting piece of sandpaper for [your] nafs"?

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You can choose to believe me or you succomb to your own feelings of insecurity. It's up to you. Don't blame it on me.

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LOL. Okay, TINK. So which is it? Am I insecure, or completely full of myself? Yes, I must be insecure, to imagine that you might think yourself more evolved than me, despite the fact that you are always criticizing me and talking about who is more evolved, skilled, refined, etc. than whom. You seem to think wandering poets are just confused and ruled by their passions, while "evolved people" are fairly reserved, tight-lipped, and eager to observe Lent. Everything you say to me exhibits your conviction that my lifestyle is unskilled, and that unskilled equals unevolved. Tell me, do you ever just admit to anything?

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My hermetic shell? HSC, this is the internent. If you hope to see me spill my innermost guts all over such a public domain, please brace yourself for a huge disappointment.

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Well, it would be nice to see your guts, just once. Shows you have some.

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If you or others feel comfortable doing so, more power to you. I don't generally feel the need. I purge with a few good friends and family. You'll probably consider that a weakness, but it's what works for me. See, here's the thing, Stephen ... I don't need you to like me.

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Look, that's fine, whatever works for you. I will buy that and retract my vehemence on this point. It is hard for me sometimes to understand people with more of an emphasis on the personal houses. I hope you do open up to one or two trusted friends, and not keep it all inside. I, for my part, will spill my guts on the internet, on stage, on paper, on canvas, or in front of a billion people, if I think it will make the experience more real, and invite others to be comfortable wearing their own humanity on their sleeves.

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Other than the first few lines, the deleted post in UC was mostly written for Kat, who I found interesting. Basically, I wanted her take. I deleted it for the reasons I already gave and, frankly, because you were there and I decided I didn't feel up to dealing with any critical remarks you might have tossed my way. Let's be honest, you're not exactly full of compliments and I didn't want the thread to descend into ... well, to descend into what this one has become.

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Fine. I just think that the little comments you leave behind look like lumps in the rug. When I saw that post, I thought, "oh, wow, spring cleaning", but, nope... back under the rug. I dunno.. I dont really see it that way.. I'm unsure of how I see it. Like I said, that stuff is hard for me to understand. But, I honestly did like what you wrote, and didnt have anything but nice comments for you. Guess we can both be a little "paranoid", eh? Maybe we both have some reason to be. You havent been all compliments either.

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So, I'm fulll of shiiit, huh? You try to look kindly on me? You could really like me and my views, however offensive? When you start to see me as human???

Well, gee, that's decent of you, isn't it? Are you serious? You got me there, bud. I don't know what the hell to say to that. You're pretty emotional about this it seems .... I'm not faulting you for that, I'm just not sure what to make of it. I'm a little taken aback. So I'll just let that sit and speak for itself.

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Yeah, I was emotional.
I overreacted and exaggerated.
I appreciate you not faulting me on that.

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The paint's dry. How'd I do?

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posted November 23, 2008 10:41 AM         

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The "ant" and the "peacock" stand for two puzzles in Darwinism--altruism and sexual selection. How can natural selection favor those, such as the worker ant, that renounce tooth and claw in favor of the public-spirited ways of the commune? And how can "peacocks"--flamboyant, ornamental and apparently useless--be tolerated by the grimly economical Darwinian reaper?

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Anyone read it? I am off base here, but you gotta love the industrious ant working away while the peacock struts the barnyard... beautiful, noisy and leaving poop in it`s wake.

Guess I need to read it to understand the "natural selection" as intended

juni

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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted November 23, 2008 11:27 AM         

Sounds like a genuine interest you have there.

I can't help but reflect your infectious spirit and wonder a little myself...

I guess, if I had to guess, I'd guess, the Lord tolerates all types?

Perhaps He is able to appreciate the rare beauty in the proud, brave peacock...
and sees how she is able to charm hearts and souls into opening and surrendering themselves at a glance?

Perhaps the "noise" we hear even sounds sonorous to Him? Who are we to judge, really?

And, anyway, her poop fertilizes the entire barnyard,
and the busy ants still find time to crowd around it like honey.

As for the ant, industrious and humble,
never one to toot her own horn or draw attention to herself...

Perhaps, despite her slavish, unoriginal, uninspiring, and drone-like existence,
He does appreciate her for the humility she never praises in herself,
and He is more than willing to smile upon her existence as well?

I guess it takes all kinds.

posted November 23, 2008 11:33 AM         

Or is it Unity?

juni

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~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~