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Author Topic:   Sun contra-parallel Saturn vs. Saturn in 5th House
ScatterShock
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posted May 30, 2012 06:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ScatterShock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi!
I'd been looking at my chart some more since talking about my Saturn in this thread ( http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum24/HTML/213764.html ) and remembered to look at the declinations of my planets. I found that I have Sun (17' 20" N) contra-parallel Saturn (18' 53" S) with a 1.33 orb. Since this is like an opposition, I looked up Sun opposite Saturn and found out that the descriptions of this aspect apply to me too well! What I find troublesome is that these traits, on the whole, seem to also apply to Saturn in the Fifth- which was why I was so certain that I had that house placement (and therefore Virgo or Libra rising).
But with this development, I don't know how to differentiate the two: do I have Sun contra-parallel Saturn (and therefore, no longer any claim to Libra rising?) or Saturn in Fifth?

Maybe a better phrasing of my question might be: Where does the overlap between these elements of the chart end? I mean, I've never been in a relationship so I can't really discount Saturn in 5th on those grounds, but what other evidence can I use to prove or disprove either one?

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Lonake
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posted June 03, 2012 02:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lonake     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you've entered your details into a competent chart program you should know whether or not it falls in your 5th, so I'm stumped on that end, unless you haven't tried that option?

To further define these elements, Sun is your basic identity, and 5th is that of love affairs, creativity, romance. Saturn to Sun can be restriction from an authority figure coming in at an early age to either cement or rob the child of their own personal authority. Contraparallel, being aligned to oppositions, implies one force facing another, you typically play out one end and meet someone else to play out the other until you find integration of these 2 elements. As the 5th house implies romance, Saturn in the 5th as one expression might take the courtship phase rather seriously and be on the lookout for signs of rejection rather than approval from someone they might hope to date. They could also hold strict standards for their potential mates and not be inclined to deviate so the pool of potential partners might be narrowed as a result. Whatever sign Saturn is in, the native would want the partner to hold those values or qualities in high regard and would not look kindly on the partner if they slipped up in that respect. For example Saturn in Pisces in the 5th would not want a flaky partner or someone who is small minded, but if afflicted this is what they might get unless they change their ways of relating in this sphere of life. They would have to open up to the positive side of Pisces and for Saturn to open up in any sign is usually a bit scary, and Saturn in Pisces and Sagittarius struggles with a small-minded mentality, because Pisces and Sagittarius are open to the big picture. But until they do this they will stay in the same relationship pattern and think the problem is with the partner and not with them. So the aspects will alter, as will sign, as will taking into acct which house has Capricorn on the cusp.

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ScatterShock
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posted June 04, 2012 03:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ScatterShock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello, Lonake!

Actually, I don't know what my ascendant is, which was why I was trying to work out my planet's positions backwards based on the way they are purported to work within each sphere of life.

I focused in on Saturn because I felt as if its effect on my life has been the most obvious, as I am awkward and self-restricting (especially with self-expression, and how I've looked at relationships). However, I also feel as if I need to hold myself back in as many situations as necessary to feel safe or competent.
For instance, my usual instinct is to act as if I don't know anything about a subject if I only know a bit about it because I don't want to be caught out at the end of whatever knowledge I do have.

So at first, I figured that Saturn in 5th was perfect because it spoke to my reluctance to push past my self-consciousness in social situations as well as my avoidance of most creative pursuits. But then, when I read up on Saturn contra-parallel/opposite Sun and saw that it looked extremely similar to having Saturn in 5th, I was confused as to which one I could have! I figured it was unlikely that my chart would have both, even if I might possibly have Libra rising (which I would have with Saturn in 5th), so I was wondering what was the difference so that I could tell which was more likely for me.

Thank you for elaborating on the way 5th house works- I was writing my thoughts on your reply and I think that, as I don't really know what I want or have hard rules (I have a hard time determining definite preferences for things unless I'm on the spot) when it comes to romance, that Saturn in 5th might be less likely.

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Lonake
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posted June 04, 2012 03:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lonake     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK that makes more sense, you're trying to rectify it. Do you have a time frame to work with, or is the whole day wide open? It's easier to work within a time frame.

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ScatterShock
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posted June 04, 2012 03:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ScatterShock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Unfortunately, I might have to look at most of the day. I have a birth certificate, but it's time (10:32 PM) would put me at Sagittarius Rising, which only 'kind of' fits personality wise (and not really appearance-wise) on a good day. I was able to talk briefly about my Ascendant to Kannon, who says that I likely have Libra or Cancer Rising. When I looked up the descriptions, Cancer fit more than Libra, and would totally knock out Saturn in 5th, as my Saturn is in Aquarius. Funnily enough, the way that my certificate denotes am or pm is with a check box, and 10:32 *AM* falls within Cancer rising, so that might be something...

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ScatterShock
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posted June 06, 2012 12:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ScatterShock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
...bump...

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Ami Anne
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posted June 07, 2012 09:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know how to use solar arcs but I could try to help you identity your ASC by pictures and /or traits.

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ScatterShock
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posted June 07, 2012 02:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ScatterShock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you, Ami Anne! I wouldn't want to make you even busier, but it would be very nice to have a starting point. (Also, I have talked to Kannon about getting a rectification from him in July, so please don't feel obliged because you offered.)


Well, one thing about me is that I am always afraid of stepping on toes, even though at the exact same time I feel irritated about not being able to 'be myself', whatever that means.

I apologize a lot, even though I've been told a number of times that I do it too much! I used to be more mindful about apologizing too much, but I kind of fell into it again.

I am also shy. It's usually my instinct to shy away from strangers, even when I find myself looking them in the eye so as to smile at them when walking past. The funny thing is, I seem to be able to turn on friendliness after a while, even when I still feel really awkward and shy on the inside.

When it comes to figuring out the answers to things, I want so much to get the answer right away that I tend to charge after what sounds reasonable... And it's a real burn out of energy if I turn out to be wrong.

Umm, I don't actually have that many great pictures of myself (especially when I'm smiling, which is a bit different from the ones I have posted thus far). Btw, please don't quote this!

Edit: Yea... I'm awkward.

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Ami Anne
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posted June 07, 2012 03:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You are so darling and so sweet. I will work on it, unless I get busy with a new chart on my website.

OK--first things first. Do you have any ASC's which you have to choose from.IOW, were you born in the morning but you don't know what time? I have not read everything, so don't know if you said this. Do you understand my question. Is it a choice between Cancer, Leo and Virgo, for example?

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Ami Anne
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posted June 07, 2012 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Talk some more about yourself, if I would meet you at a party. I have already taken out some ASC's, just from what you have said, so far.

I would take out the Fire ASCs--Aries, leo and Sag
I would take out Scorpio, as you are not suspicious enough lol

I would leave in the others, for now, but you see how this is do-able imho

This is just my opinion, as is everything I do.

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ScatterShock
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posted June 07, 2012 04:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ScatterShock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Umm... My Mom said that I was born in the afternoon ~4pm, which caused me to try to fit myself into Virgo or Libra... I sort of feel like I could fit into Libra, but I am not a social butterfly/sophisticate type. It's like, I have the indecisive part, but not the Venusian luxurious part...

Um, if you were to meet me at a party, especially if I wasn't there with any family I would likely be in a corner, trying to find somewhere to sit and be comfortable until I felt like getting up for some food or a really fun song. When I think about the last party I went to without family, I was pretty much ready to go immediately since it was a college party and it was crowded and loud and gross. In cases like those, I'll tell my friends that I'm leaving then go.
But, in a setting with actual chairs and food and stuff, I'll stick around but be pretty shy, which causes me to want to mentally curl into myself until something or someone interesting comes along. If someone says hi, I'll be really awkward at first, but if I can think about something to talk with them about, I can become friendly and comfortable fairly quickly. I like to just vibe with people, and I have to remind myself that they might not bond so quickly, as friendly as they may be. It's kind of funny, since I prefer to hold back a lot, but at the same time I want to be friendly with everyone (unless I have a reason not to be).

I understand. I have tried to do the same thing by picking signs that seemed kind of right and then trying to make them fit by reading a whole bunch of descriptions... @_@ It hasn't worked out too well for me since I just can't be sure.

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Ami Anne
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posted June 07, 2012 05:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok Virgo and Libra are SUPER different, so this should not be that hard.

Are you super anal about things? Are you anal about details? Are you kind of lazy? Do you really like creature comforts?

Do you have a good artistic kind of sense?

Answer these and we will go from here. i can't tell which from your picture. It could be either--picture wise

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ScatterShock
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posted June 07, 2012 06:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ScatterShock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am not that particular. I may notice things that might be unusual, but I don't really care unless I know that I'm supposed to. However, I can be good at organizing things, and even find it kind of fun when I'm in the mood for it. Even then, I don't need to be organized. Also, I am really bad with details- in math, I've always gotten docked points for careless mistakes and in computer science, I always had trouble because of things that I've forgotten or missed completely. So yea.

On the other side, I am pretty lazy. I will get around to things eventually, but I don't like having to do things right away unless it's interesting. I am not sure what 'creature comforts' means- does it refer to foods I like and comfortable spaces or just one of those? I have foods that make me feel good when I eat them, but they aren't always sweets. I also like to kick back in a chair or something like that, though. So I guess it's a yes either way!

Artist sense... I have a sense of style, even though I don't always insist on being in perfect outfits. I like music a lot, but I am not that picky about what I listen to as long as it's fun to dance with or sing with. I like to look at art and stuff every so often, but I can't stand art museums for very long! I feel like I didn't exactly answer your question, but I don't consider myself very artistic or creative- even though I think it would be cool.

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Ami Anne
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posted June 07, 2012 06:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Go study Virgo Sun signs and Libra Sun Signs and come back and talk about it, with me! talk to me about how you are like and not like Virgo and the same with Libra. They are quite different, so we should be able to figure it out.

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ScatterShock
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posted June 07, 2012 07:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ScatterShock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ooh, ok! I am about to step away from my computer and this will take a little while, so I'll be back later!

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Ami Anne
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posted June 07, 2012 07:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ScatterShock:
Ooh, ok! I am about to step away from my computer and this will take a little while, so I'll be back later!


No rush Sweetie. You are so cute

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ScatterShock
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posted June 08, 2012 08:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ScatterShock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello Ami Anne, Um, thanks.
I looked through Cafe Astrology's Description of the Virgo Sun and tried to pick out major things. My responses are in the asterisks.


It's good to know that the stereotype of the hairsplitter is just that, and not necessarily something that defines Virgo. However, Virgo suns have a very good eye for details and are good at creating order. This is probably an earth sign thing, as Virgo is mutable earth, but Virgo sun makes for a hard worker and a person who likes to keep busy with some sort of work.
*I am not completely oblivious to disorder, but I don't really care about it unless things get in my way or someone specifically wants me to keep order. Otherwise, I am not an orderly or organized person by nature. (I was an orderly student as a kid, though.) I will do my best when I am already in a project, but I certainly don't go around looking for work to fill my time! *

Virgo prefers to keep to the background, and can initially be shy, but when in a comfortable space, Virgos will open up and show how knowledgeable about things they are. Virgo's like to stay on top of things intellectually and, combined with their conscientiousness and tendency toward doing their best, make for good students. However, their curiosity and scholarly diligence doesn't automatically mean that they also need to try out the things they learn in action.
*I definitely prefer the background, and more often than not, when I do open up to people, it's about something intellectual. I used to have a lot of intellectual curiosity, but I don't really have that as much these days. I wouldn't call myself a good student in the sense I described for Virgo, since I can't be bothered with being super dedicated to note taking and research (even though, at the very beginning of a new interest, I will look up as much as I can!). I do agree with not needing to try things out in the field though, for the most part. I have a problem with taking things in fast and forgetting them just as fast.*

Virgo seems to be a sign that makes one care very much about their ability to do things well. Even when they accept less their best, it doesn't feel good to them to do it. There also seems to be a tendency to worry about everything, particularly ones health. They prefer to keep their work private, disinclined to share the processes thereof.
*I care about being good at stuff, and I don't try very much... I am not a perfectionist, but on some level I feel like I should be to prove myself. I don't worry about my health too much, as long as I am able to move around and do what I want to do, I kind of let things be as they are.*

Virgos may not be the best at accepting compliments, but they do need to feel appreciated. *This part is pretty spot on. I want to accept compliments, but I tend to downplay them. It sort of leads to a cycle of my needing validation but not feeling like I can accept it.*

Libra is Next!

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ScatterShock
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posted June 08, 2012 09:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ScatterShock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cafe Astrology's Libra Sun:
A Libran Sun makes for a friendly, social, intellectual person who prefers to avoid conflict. *I think I'm quietly friendly, but I am not very comfortable in social situations. I definitely prefer not to have anybody mad at me.*

Librans might want peace to such an extent that they try to "be everything to everyone", which can cause issues of duplicity. Even as the Libran goal is peace, at times the way to maintain balance in a situation is in fact to disagree with those who would prefer they have a definite opinion or stance on something. *This is not like me. As long as I am not on the spot, I am not going to step in just to create harmony. If I am involved, I prefer to make my point in as harmless terms as I can because I don't mean to start trouble.*

Preferring to avoid absolutes and thinking in relative terms can backfire on the Libran sun in that they are often comparing their situation to something else- often an ideal- and failing to live in the moment. *This isn't me, though I think it's reasonable to try to keep things in relative terms.*

Libra tends to come across as refined and civilized on an individual level. *I wanted to put this in because it seemed important. It doesn't describe me at all, though.*
--

AlwaysAstrology has a different look at Libra:
A Libra sun might make one want so much to keep harmony in their surroundings that they might lose their personality in it. More than that, when they are sad or angry, Librans might repress these feelings rather than express them, which makes for a meltdown later on. *I don't consider it my business to monitor the emotional atmosphere in a place. I do put a lid on my negative emotions, though, preferring to express them in privacy.*

Peace loving Libra is drawn to relationships, and wishes to see the best in their family, friends, and loves. However, a tendency toward idealism might cause a Libra to have standards too high to be realistic. *I don't think I'm that idealistic, actually. I definitely hope for the best for the people I care about.*

Friendly and highly social Libran suns love to be surrounded by nice things and are loyal to their close ones. *I am friendly, but not highly social. I don't really make that big a deal about luxuries, either. If I have the option, then I would choose things I like, but otherwise I'll just keep on moving.*

Less sparkling aspects of the Libran sun can be superficiality and unreliability due to indecisiveness. To people who are more inclined to express their strong feelings, Librans may be frustrating to deal with. However, Librans just prefer to think things over until they're satisfied. *I am kind of superficial, I admit, but I don't think it's a very obvious trait of mine. I am very indecisive, though, and it even frustrates me. I do prefer to think things over, I just wish I could be satisfied with stuff faster, but at the same time, I can be wrong and I have to know if I am. It's usually why I want to ask for help.*

On a career scale, Librans may more enjoy artistic vocations, but are also likely to be fulfilled in careers making use of their social natures and their reasoning skills. *I don't know what kind of careers would appeal to me, but the Libran ones didn't really send me.*
-----

This was pretty hard! I didn't want to fret too much over what to put in, so I kind of forced myself to go fast. Oddly enough, forcing myself to make more definite statements makes me think that neither of these fit that well! *sigh*

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Ami Anne
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posted June 08, 2012 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ScatterShock:
Hello Ami Anne, Um, thanks.
I looked through Cafe Astrology's Description of the Virgo Sun and tried to pick out major things. My responses are in the asterisks.


It's good to know that the stereotype of the hairsplitter is just that, and not necessarily something that defines Virgo. However, Virgo suns have a very good eye for details and are good at creating order. This is probably an earth sign thing, as Virgo is mutable earth, but Virgo sun makes for a hard worker and a person who likes to keep busy with some sort of work.
*I am not completely oblivious to disorder, but I don't really care about it unless things get in my way or someone specifically wants me to keep order. Otherwise, I am not an orderly or organized person by nature. (I was an orderly student as a kid, though.) I will do my best when I am already in a project, but I certainly don't go around looking for work to fill my time! *

Virgo prefers to keep to the background, and can initially be shy, but when in a comfortable space, Virgos will open up and show how knowledgeable about things they are. Virgo's like to stay on top of things intellectually and, combined with their conscientiousness and tendency toward doing their best, make for good students. However, their curiosity and scholarly diligence doesn't automatically mean that they also need to try out the things they learn in action.
*I definitely prefer the background, and more often than not, when I do open up to people, it's about something intellectual. I used to have a lot of intellectual curiosity, but I don't really have that as much these days. I wouldn't call myself a good student in the sense I described for Virgo, since I can't be bothered with being super dedicated to note taking and research (even though, at the very beginning of a new interest, I will look up as much as I can!). I do agree with not needing to try things out in the field though, for the most part. I have a problem with taking things in fast and forgetting them just as fast.*

Virgo seems to be a sign that makes one care very much about their ability to do things well. Even when they accept less their best, it doesn't feel good to them to do it. There also seems to be a tendency to worry about everything, particularly ones health. They prefer to keep their work private, disinclined to share the processes thereof.
*I care about being good at stuff, and I don't try very much... I am not a perfectionist, but on some level I feel like I should be to prove myself. I don't worry about my health too much, as long as I am able to move around and do what I want to do, I kind of let things be as they are.*

Virgos may not be the best at accepting compliments, but they do need to feel appreciated. *This part is pretty spot on. I want to accept compliments, but I tend to downplay them. It sort of leads to a cycle of my needing validation but not feeling like I can accept it.*

Libra is Next!


I don't think you are Virgo.

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Ami Anne
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posted June 08, 2012 04:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My feel is that you are NOT Virgo. If we have the choice of these two, I would say Libra. You may have a planet conj the ASC such as Saturn modifying your ASC.

What planets do you have in Libra. I am feeling you have something conjunct your ASC--perhaps Saturn or Chiron

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ScatterShock
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posted June 08, 2012 05:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ScatterShock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
*nodnod* Yay, I feel better totally disproving Virgo (Kannon said it couldn't be that either). I don't have any planets in Libra, actually. Also, if I were to put Libra as my rising, that would make my Mars and Venus be at ninth and tenth house....

I am definitely not that outwardly Martian....

May I ask if you could help me also prove or disprove Cancer rising? I am afraid to have Venus or Mars in 12th, and I don't know if either would be in 1st.

Edit: I got too nervous to keep the pictures up. >_<;

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ScatterShock
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posted June 10, 2012 06:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ScatterShock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
...bump...
Hi! Can we still talk?

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Ami Anne
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posted June 10, 2012 06:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ScatterShock:
...bump...
Hi! Can we still talk?

You are SO freakin cute
Sure, we can still talk, but I have to get away from the computer for a bit. Ask me anything and I will look when I get back!

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ScatterShock
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posted June 10, 2012 09:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ScatterShock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok, thank you.

How would I know if I have any 12th house planets when I don't know what my rising is for sure?

When I think about having Libra rising, that means that I should have Mars in tenth and Venus in ninth, possibly conjunct Midheaven. However, I not even sure enough of my Martian and Venusian energy to think that they have a place so close to the angle that shows my public persona.

On the other hand, if I have Cancer rising (which is kind of the only one other than Libra that sounds right), I might have Mars and Venus in 12th! In fact, if I had Cancer rising, Venus has a 29/30 chance of being in 12th! I was kind of wondering if there was a way for me to know if it was possible. I got ahead of myself strongly believing that I had Saturn in 5th, so I would like to step back and ask this time...

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Ami Anne
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posted June 11, 2012 06:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, my best suggestion if you can afford the money is go to Kannon and he can rectify it for you. He is an expert. I am doing the best I can, but I am getting confused now lol

For me, I have to start with the ASC and go from there. I can't look to the 12th house BEFORE we have the ASC. If you want to try to figure out your ASC with me, we have to eliminate ASCs. So, now we have eliminated Virgo and have to go on.

What do we have left?

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