posted March 24, 2015 03:47 PM            

Nevertheless, both and all these couples qualify for long-term romance; I can't claim I know what happens behind closed doors, but sometimes seeing two people together (it's easy, their picture is everywhere lol) and reading some biographies helps with forming an opinion. Also seeing lots and lots of synastries, famous or not, where these aspects occur.

You may "update" the list yourself by adding more couples, you're welcome to do it

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted March 24, 2015 08:53 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aquacheeka:

OK not going to go into detail here but just going to point out - Liz Taylor and Richard Burton were violent with one another and divorced twice, Antonio Banderas and Melanie Griffith are divorcing, Catherine Zeta-Jones and Michael Douglas were (possibly currently still) separated, SJP has said that she takes 15 minutes every day to "hate" her husband and he has been caught with pictures cheating on her. Which just goes to prove my point - longevity doesn't necessarily equal happiness. We don't know what goes on behind closed doors. Also, might want to update your list.

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Agreed. Saturn aspects indicate longevity, but that doesn't matter whatsoever if the quality of the relationship is in the toilet. Think Cost vs. Benefit. If it costs you more (physically, emotionally, mentally) than it is benefiting you (happiness, what you value, your health) then leave. It makes no sense to stay. Also, I think if we're going to consider it research, we need a lot more than a few charts.

Long term means nothing imo. A six year relationship could have more quality than a 25 year relationship, but could end just because life happens. Or you just stop loving someone. Doesn't change the fact that you have plenty of fond memories with that person.

I loathe how anyone can use astrology to romanticize bad relationships. Aka malefic planets like Pluto/Saturn with flashy words like "karma", "duty/obligation", in bad aspects somehow makes your misery or poor living standards OK to bear. Put bluntly, that is ****. If it's not working for years, then throw him/her away and live while you CAN to see something better! Don't give up YEARS of your life (because there's no proof you get another!) out of "duty" (which is nonsense) because when you look back, will you HONESTLY be proud you wasted your life in a bad relationship? If you're married forever, will you honesty think to yourself, "I couldn't have done better" when you're almost at the end of the road and near croaking? Heck no!

You owe yourself happiness and freedom to explore all your avenues (no matter what age) before you owe anyone (even friends) jack-diddly squat. Value yourself more because nobody in life will tell you to do that. They expect you to.

Now if a relationship afflicted by Saturn is benefiting you more than it costs you? Awesome. Ignore all the above.

posted March 24, 2015 09:07 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Iced8Ace:
Agreed. Saturn aspects indicate longevity, but that doesn't matter whatsoever if the quality of the relationship is in the toilet. Think Cost vs. Benefit. If it costs you more (physically, emotionally, mentally) than it is benefiting you (happiness, what you value, your health) then leave. It makes no sense to stay. Also, I think if we're going to consider it research, we need a lot more than a few charts.

Long term means nothing imo. A six year relationship could have more quality than a 25 year relationship, but could end just because life happens. Or you just stop loving someone. Doesn't change the fact that you have plenty of fond memories with that person.

I loathe how anyone can use astrology to romanticize bad relationships. Aka malefic planets like Pluto/Saturn with flashy words like "karma", "duty/obligation", in bad aspects somehow makes your misery or poor living standards OK to bear. Put bluntly, that is ****. If it's not working for years, then throw him/her away and live while you CAN to see something better! Don't give up YEARS of your life (because there's no proof you get another!) out of "duty" (which is nonsense) because when you look back, will you HONESTLY be proud you wasted your life in a bad relationship? If you're married forever, will you honesty think to yourself, "I couldn't have done better" when you're almost at the end of the road and near croaking? Heck no!

You owe yourself happiness and freedom to explore all your avenues (no matter what age) before you owe anyone (even friends) jack-diddly squat. Value yourself more because nobody in life will tell you to do that. They expect you to.

Now if a relationship afflicted by Saturn is benefiting you more than it costs you? Awesome. Ignore all the above.

This is coming from someone with Mercury and Moon conjunct Saturn in the 7th house. Venus (7th house) square Pluto (4th) as well and it's my tightest aspect.

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I'm sorry to say, since I appreciate your posts very much, that in this case you are wrong, and this is based on studying a substantial database of synastries of successful relationships (and believe me they do exist, and many of them last a lifetime or a substantial amount of time from your lifetime lol - saying there are no loving, sexual, successful relationships over 5 or 10 years is absurd, not reality) - something any astrologer can and should do with personal cases and public cases. Aspects from Saturn to luminaries, angles, Venus, Mars and the nodal axis are a statistical fact in relational astrology, something anyone can establish after studying let's say a batch of 100 such synastries. Saturn aspects are not "afflictions" in relational astrology, and besides you are using a medieval outdated meaning of Saturn as the "great malefic", in the way you see this planet. Modern research has slowly, but radically banished this view and why?? because of the significant amount of data proving otherwise.
Anyway, the purpose of this thread was to establish Mars/Saturn hard aspects are not a deal breaker, there was a quite recent statistical research on this with a statistically significant batch quoted somewhere on this forum as well, but anyone can reach the same conclusion after studying relational astrology based on real-life facts and data.

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted March 24, 2015 09:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Iced8Ace:
Also, I think if we're going to consider it research, we need a lot more than a few charts.

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I only quoted 15 famous couples in my database with HARD Mars/Saturn aspects, the rest of the couples, famous or not, hundreds of them, thousands of them in fact, will show this aspect or a variation with another personal, one way or another. And I only quoted 15 out of lack of time, but it still was an effort, and I did it to share information that might change a preconceived, false astrological idea that is unsupported by evidence, an effort that you should appreciate or at least contradict with the same time and effort, by offering your own counter examples and your work.

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted March 25, 2015 01:43 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
I'm sorry to say, since I appreciate your posts very much, that in this case you are wrong, and this is based on studying a substantial database of synastries of successful relationships (and believe me they do exist, and many of them last a lifetime or a substantial amount of time from your lifetime lol - saying there are no loving, sexual, successful relationships over 5 or 10 years is absurd, not reality) - something any astrologer can and should do with personal cases and public cases. Aspects from Saturn to luminaries, angles, Venus, Mars and the nodal axis are a statistical fact in relational astrology, something anyone can establish after studying let's say a batch of 100 such synastries. Saturn aspects are not "afflictions" in relational astrology, and besides you are using a medieval outdated meaning of Saturn as the "great malefic", in the way you see this planet. Modern research has slowly, but radically banished this view and why?? because of the significant amount of data proving otherwise.
Anyway, the purpose of this thread was to establish Mars/Saturn hard aspects are not a deal breaker, there was a quite recent statistical research on this with a statistically significant batch quoted somewhere on this forum as well, but anyone can reach the same conclusion after studying relational astrology based on real-life facts and data.

---

I have not said that saturn aspects are absent in successful long term relationships. I have said that long term doesn't matter. Your experience is what matters in a relationship.

What I specifically condemned is telling anyone that their negative saturn or pluto aspects is why they should stay in an unhealthy relationship for years, because it binds them and its "special". I just don't think advice like that is moral.

I think you and I both know a lot of "medieval" astrology methods along with their classifications are still used and validated today. I don't want to bother to go into depth here, but if you want to paint Saturn in a positive light, that is your decision based on your experiences. It isn't a popular one because many studies and cases to this day reflect otherwise. I could argue in favour of the latter but I told people to decide for themselves what is bad and good for them. I won't pretend to be an expert on Saturn but I can simply state my opinion.

posted March 25, 2015 02:56 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:

Anyway, the purpose of this thread was to establish Mars/Saturn hard aspects are not a deal breaker,

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And they aren`t. Though they can be.

No isolated aspect is ever a dealbreaker, and certainly not generally speaking. And no isolated aspect is ever always a blessing.

posted March 25, 2015 11:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Iced8Ace:

What I specifically condemned is telling anyone that their negative saturn or pluto aspects is why they should stay in an unhealthy relationship for years, because it binds them and its "special". I just don't think advice like that is moral.

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Who did that? I think most people here know I never promote unhealthy relationships, what astrologer does that anyway?

And I totally agree with you on that, the quality of the experience matters the most, not the duration. There is no official race with "who loves for the longest time" as winner.

I was just trying to point out:

1. Saturn is not a malefic planet, it's an important positive archetype to integrate. All planets have a positive, and a dark side (Saturn included)
2. Saturn figures strongly in QUALITY romantic relationships, and these usually have a certain average duration (changing with mentalities and history, of course), that duration gives those people time to experience all facets of being a couple: infatuation, friendship, falling in love, honeymoon period, becoming parents as a result of their love, enjoying post-parental freedom and changes, various life stages shared together, growing old together. The stronger the love between two people, and their compatibility, the stronger the desire to experience these things together. Of course, Saturn comes up in relationships taking 3 to 5 years as well, with a deadline.

But I agree with what Ceri said:

No isolated aspect is ever a dealbreaker, and certainly not generally speaking. And no isolated aspect is ever always a blessing.

emphasizing an aspect with the desire to underline its positive side doesn't make it exclusively positive or the ONLY marker in a synastry showing it's a good one. Mars/Saturn can be a harsh, crappy energy, in the wrong synastric or natal context. So does Venus/Jupiter in fact: imagine two people drinking or eating themselves to death, together, as a couple.

This doesn't change the fact that there are certain archetypes (reflected in astrological aspects) coming up in love and relationships, repeatedly, and one of them is the Saturn connection. Saturn is not just longevity, it is also the father archetype, the family-type bond, the protector, the teacher, the adviser, even the critique, the wise old man and woman, the planet of stability and endurance, commitment, devotion, work, taking things seriously, it makes perfect sense for Saturn to be an important part of quality love and relationships, along with the other relational archetypes.

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted March 25, 2015 09:06 PM            

As for the classification of Saturn hard aspects being malefic, I am not going to give a spiel on something so basic. Feel free to debunk 100's of astrologers who have branded Saturn hard aspects as malefic, though.

posted March 26, 2015 09:27 AM            

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted March 27, 2015 02:01 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Hard Saturn aspects are not better or worse than soft ones.

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Who on earth said that? haha. But you do admit softer aspects are easier to deal with, right? Otherwise I guess we should chuck the whole idea of aspects, (trine, sextile, square etc) straight into the bin!

posted March 27, 2015 11:46 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Iced8Ace:
Who on earth said that? haha. But you do admit softer aspects are easier to deal with, right? Otherwise I guess we should chuck the whole idea of aspects, (trine, sextile, square etc) straight into the bin!

Now can we quit this? Agree to disagree?

---

Well...quit! Who's forcing you to write? lol

I view soft aspects differently, shortly put they are mostly about already integrated inborn psychological dynamics and features. Of course, hard aspects have a psychological dimension as well. But hard aspects in one's chart are the growth-oriented part of our psychology resulted from the interaction with the environment. The difference between inborn/inherited talents/gifts and environment produced features. The challenges of this interaction forces one to grow, they are a novelty, action-oriented side, making them the drive behind the engine. By "challenges" it is not to be understood: difficulties only; but everything a challenge means, in the dictionary, including its highly positive meaning.

Charts with a prevalence of soft aspects are very complacent, self-indulgent and resistant to change.

EDIT: and yes, I agree to disagree
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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted March 27, 2015 12:37 PM            

and I agree to agree with you. how you described the aspects I mean.

posted March 27, 2015 01:12 PM            

Though in my case, chances are pretty good that if either Moon or Saturn are aspected, the other end is aspected as well (due to the exact quinkunx between them in my natal).

" Saturn hard aspects in synastry/comp (particularly the square) seem to be a very binding factor, much more common in solid relationships in general. "
Yes, I noticed that as well. And not all of them are miserable with each other. luckily.

I was thinking that maybe that has to do with the relationship between Moon and Saturn, I mean they are ends of an axis, like Venus and Mars, just in their case it is Cancer-Capricorn, IC-MC.

Another aspect is that there is an intriguing astronomical interrelationship between them.

they are an "item" somehow.
They are the frame of our personality so to speak, Moon as the most internal, personal, inner planet, closest to earth or as a matter of fact, a PART OF EARTH, and Saturn being the last frontier to the transcendental energies of Uranus, Neptune, Pluto and so on.

Of course they are also "mummy" and "daddy", the mature feminine and the mature masculine principle (in a different way than Sun of course).
They are related to opposite houses, no matter how you count the houses, just like Venus and Mars are.


And also their "mathematic" is similiar.
I read that in the book by Mertz many years ago.

to complete a cycle Saturn needs just the same amount of YEARS, as Moon needs days / nights.
29,458 years vs. 29,458 days/nights.

Sometimes this kind of energy comes for a Venus/Saturn (mostly some kind of DW, including a hard aspect as well) but it's less common and fits only those who accept Saturnian energy to their Venus in their natal,"
Well I have a Capricorn-Venus and I do like Saturn-Venus aspects in someone else`s natal. Curiously I have not experienced the synastric Venus-Saturn-aspects too often.
Well Mr Eyecandy apparently makes a DW of Venus-Saturn-trine with my natal chart, which intrigues me, as it is sort of "new".

"Not to forget the NN/Saturn square, that one comes up so often, either in synastry or comp."
Yes, that is something I found intriguing (also noticed quite a few instances of Saturn/NN and even more so Saturn/SN). In the beginning I would have thought the Saturn square miht be disruptive and blocking, but it comes up so often.
Instead I found that the opposition and square of Neptune to the North Node turns up rather frequently in gloriously failed relationships. Maybe it is just the case in the celebrity world though, but it was chilling to see that.

posted March 27, 2015 02:37 PM            

I know this aspect has an extremely bad rap, especially from people who were Mars, and I don't deny that it can stir up a lot of insecurities and yeah, sometimes it's tough to swallow that your partner isn't moving as fast as you want to, or sets boundaries. I have been Mars and it was the worst - I felt so much cold coming from Saturn (see the "Persuer-Distancer" thread.

But having been Saturn twice in two very important relationships - my first serious boyfriend and now my Virgo partner, I really think Saturn gets too much criticism!

See, Saturn isn't only an annoying parent out to ruin your fun, or to drag you down into their own fears/insecurities. I think that, aside from the cases where Saturn is out to get Mars/turned off by Mars, they really try to look out for Mars and keep them out of trouble. Saturn makes them aware of very realistic boundaries that could get you in trouble if you cross them.

I'll give an example with both guys to show that.

My first serious boyfriend was a Mars in Aries, square my Cap Saturn by 1 degree. His Mars was on my DSC, so I was very attracted to him and flattered by his persuing. But once we began dating, there were a few things that well, I didn't have to put up with. Like he was extremely sexual and honestly ready to pounce me whenever we were alone, despite me not being ready for sex yet. So was I supposed to just let him do whatever he wanted, regardless of whether I wanted to or not? 'Cause that seems to be what the Mars person in all of these experiences here on LL wants. Well... no. I had to set some boundaries - very Saturn - and hold him off for a bit, for my own sake.

Then with my Virgo partner, I have it from the other side: Mars in Libra square that same Cap Saturn (2 degrees). Okay, so he doesn't pounce - Libra is too refined for that, or at least let it show - but he has other Martian problems. Due to a lot of trauma as a child, he easily slips back into them, triggered by something minor (PTSD), and then goes off. Yes, Mars in Libra (he has an exact square to his Uranus in his chart, and another to Neptune that makes him repress it until it's too late). When he's like that, he's capable of seriously hurting himself and he's fought with a lot of people over the years. So when he gets into that mood, I calmly talk to him, talk him through it and sympathize, but make sure to discourage him of going through with it. Like - the way something can occur in his head, well, it needs a lot of boundary-setting. I let him be mad and blow off some steam, but pay close attention so I'll be able to intervene and steer his anger, if that makes any sense. Encourage him to talk to the person he's mad at, ask them how they feel instead of storming over and flipping out on them.
That's Saturn, too, and a very positive form of it, too, I'd say. If me or someone else Saturnine didn't stop him, who knows what could happen.

In both cases, these boundaries, holding them back and giving them a reality check are needed. Because Mars is fiery, yes, but he also tends to just do whatever he wants, whenever he wants and feels like it, rushing into things without thinking it through. And Saturn can give him that pause to think of whether wanting to fight someone or throw himself on his girl is really worth acting on his impulses.

It can also be extra exciting for Mars - like an extra chellenge in winning over Saturn.

posted March 30, 2015 12:29 PM            

quote:

---

See, Saturn isn't only an annoying parent out to ruin your fun, or to drag you down into their own fears/insecurities. I think that, aside from the cases where Saturn is out to get Mars/turned off by Mars, they really try to look out for Mars and keep them out of trouble. Saturn makes them aware of very realistic boundaries that could get you in trouble if you cross them.

t can also be extra exciting for Mars - like an extra chellenge in winning over Saturn.

---

OK, I want to share this;
A very experienced astrologer once said to me that it's NOT the hard Saturn/Mars aspect on itself in synastry that makes the 'beast coming out' BUT *only* when the Saturn partner ALSO has a harsh Saturn/Mars OR Saturn/Chiron aspect in his natal. Which then ofcourse connected TO that hard Saturn/Mars synastry aspect.
But she also pointed out that it doesn't have to be Mars which connected to that hard natal aspect. Other personal planets might be as sensitive - in another way ofc.

What are your experiences?

posted March 30, 2015 03:57 PM            

quote:

---

Ori ginally posted by mir:

OK, I want to share this;
A very experienced astrologer once said to me that it's NOT the hard Saturn/Mars aspect on itself in synastry that makes the 'beast coming out' BUT *only* when the Saturn partner ALSO has a harsh Saturn/Mars OR Saturn/Chiron aspect in his natal. Which then ofcourse connected TO that hard Saturn/Mars synastry aspect.
But she also pointed out that it doesn't have to be Mars which connected to that hard natal aspect. Other personal planets might be as sensitive - in another way ofc.

What are your experiences?

Ow, and she said that you can find such connections as above in ALL dimensions; the declinations, but also in Helio.

---

I have a Mars/Saturn conjunction; so does that mean if another persons planet lands on it, I turn into the Hulk?

posted April 03, 2015 08:42 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by mir:

OK, I want to share this;
A very experienced astrologer once said to me that it's NOT the hard Saturn/Mars aspect on itself in synastry that makes the 'beast coming out' BUT *only* when the Saturn partner ALSO has a harsh Saturn/Mars OR Saturn/Chiron aspect in his natal. Which then ofcourse connected TO that hard Saturn/Mars synastry aspect.
But she also pointed out that it doesn't have to be Mars which connected to that hard natal aspect. Other personal planets might be as sensitive - in another way ofc.

What are your experiences?

Ow, and she said that you can find such connections as above in ALL dimensions; the declinations, but also in Helio.

---

Mir!!!!!!!! I was just wondering about you! How are you????

Lovely post, BTW.

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted April 03, 2015 12:56 PM            

quote:

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Please consider that any Mars-Saturn-Pluto combination is a warning, not an omen that should be seen in the light of circumstances, characters, situations, genes, culture and all else that is more important than the warning in a chart.

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posted April 08, 2015 07:07 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by meissieri:
Passion? Hm, maybe passion (Mars) channeled properly through Saturn's hard work/dedication.

I know this aspect has an extremely bad rap, especially from people who were Mars, and I don't deny that it can stir up a lot of insecurities and yeah, sometimes it's tough to swallow that your partner isn't moving as fast as you want to, or sets boundaries. I have been Mars and it was the worst - I felt so much cold coming from Saturn (see the "Persuer-Distancer" thread.

But having been Saturn twice in two very important relationships - my first serious boyfriend and now my Virgo partner, I really think Saturn gets too much criticism!

See, Saturn isn't only an annoying parent out to ruin your fun, or to drag you down into their own fears/insecurities. I think that, aside from the cases where Saturn is out to get Mars/turned off by Mars, they really try to look out for Mars and keep them out of trouble. Saturn makes them aware of very realistic boundaries that could get you in trouble if you cross them.

I'll give an example with both guys to show that.

My first serious boyfriend was a Mars in Aries, square my Cap Saturn by 1 degree. His Mars was on my DSC, so I was very attracted to him and flattered by his persuing. But once we began dating, there were a few things that well, I didn't have to put up with. Like he was extremely sexual and honestly ready to pounce me whenever we were alone, despite me not being ready for sex yet. So was I supposed to just let him do whatever he wanted, regardless of whether I wanted to or not? 'Cause that seems to be what the Mars person in all of these experiences here on LL wants. Well... no. I had to set some boundaries - very Saturn - and hold him off for a bit, for my own sake.

Then with my Virgo partner, I have it from the other side: Mars in Libra square that same Cap Saturn (2 degrees). Okay, so he doesn't pounce - Libra is too refined for that, or at least let it show - but he has other Martian problems. Due to a lot of trauma as a child, he easily slips back into them, triggered by something minor (PTSD), and then goes off. Yes, Mars in Libra (he has an exact square to his Uranus in his chart, and another to Neptune that makes him repress it until it's too late). When he's like that, he's capable of seriously hurting himself and he's fought with a lot of people over the years. So when he gets into that mood, I calmly talk to him, talk him through it and sympathize, but make sure to discourage him of going through with it. Like - the way something can occur in his head, well, it needs a lot of boundary-setting. I let him be mad and blow off some steam, but pay close attention so I'll be able to intervene and steer his anger, if that makes any sense. Encourage him to talk to the person he's mad at, ask them how they feel instead of storming over and flipping out on them.
That's Saturn, too, and a very positive form of it, too, I'd say. If me or someone else Saturnine didn't stop him, who knows what could happen.

In both cases, these boundaries, holding them back and giving them a reality check are needed. Because Mars is fiery, yes, but he also tends to just do whatever he wants, whenever he wants and feels like it, rushing into things without thinking it through. And Saturn can give him that pause to think of whether wanting to fight someone or throw himself on his girl is really worth acting on his impulses.

It can also be extra exciting for Mars - like an extra chellenge in winning over Saturn.

- Mars trine Saturn natally. Near-exact. I like and know this aspect pretty well (though still learning).
(So does my partner. Also a trine in our composite.)
And I just realized we may have a mutual reception by duad? If that's even a thing. Like, his Mars is in the Capricorn duad, while my Saturn is in the Aries duad.

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posted April 08, 2015 07:10 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by venus2tinkerbell:
I was wondering how someone's experience with Pluto might shape their ideas about Saturn. In my natal Pluto hits almost all of my planets and squares my Sun and Venus. In synastry Pluto and Pluto themes are huge. I almost need that energy to know I'm alive, but it is also a little too wild, and out of control the older I get, and the more seriously I take my responsibilities. Right now, Saturn conj. Mars and Venus and Saturn opposite Moon feels like a slow controlled Pluto burn. It's kind of just what I need right now. Anyone else experience this?

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I think Saturn brings structure and realism to Pluto's depth and desire for control. The dark side of this combination would be cruelty and lust for power.

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

LeeLoo's Esotericorner