posted March 27, 2003 08:12 PM              

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posted March 28, 2003 12:49 PM            

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Writing books is to be paid as an author and doesn't violate the Rule.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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posted March 28, 2003 03:29 PM              

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Perhaps! But it seems rather debatabul in my view.

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posted March 29, 2003 09:37 AM            

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No personal teacher/student relationship. The author is paid for the work of writing.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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posted March 29, 2003 02:26 PM              

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Randall, you always get straight to the point. Wish I could do that!

-StarLover

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posted March 31, 2003 11:38 AM            

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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posted June 05, 2003 02:33 PM              

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Hi All!
Would like to throw my opinion in here!
I used to have a hard time about the student/teacher money thing. I found it totally offensive for a teacher to accept money from a student. Now, my view has shifted somewhat.
We have obligations, not only financial but family, self, community etc. In todays society, we need to pay taxes, insurance, food, electricity and so on. Now bartering isn't an issue with big companies or the tax man. Money is only accepted. One form of energy inexchange for another form.
I have a wonderful teacher, and she prefers me not to pay her. But goodness...the knowledge she has shared with me and guidance she has given is worth more than I could ever give.

You have to be open to the universe when it wants to give back to you...in one form or another.
She takes at least 4 hours of her time a week, opens her home and hosts circle for 9 of us gals, we have lessons - complete with hand-outs, and offers her knowledge and insight. And she struggles to pay the mortgage. Why ~ Because she refuses the money we offer her. Here we are willing to let go of our money and share it with her and she refuses, because of this student/teacher issue.
We have had many discussions of this at circle. And from those discussions feel that denying me the privelege of giving is denying her the privelege of receiving.
We who are of this earth are here because we still have to remember...

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posted June 05, 2003 05:22 PM              

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For what it's worth. I've been to just 6 astrologers/tarot readers/pyschics. Of the 6, only 2 did not charge money. The 4 that did were completly off the mark and left me with a distinctly bad feeling. The other 2 were Wonderful. I wonder if this is a coincidence? Having said that, I very much sympathize with Carlo's position. Anyone who has even peeked into an astrology handbook realizes the time and energy required to master this art.Certainly though there is a difference(karmically and otherwise) between demanding money and accepting it. I've visted several museums, public gardens,etc. that asked only for a voluntary donation. Whatever the patron could afford and felt was due. Carlo, do you think most of your clients would make a "donation" if you no longer required it? Or would they take advantage?

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posted June 06, 2003 12:16 AM              

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Hi Tink! You hit the mark...difference between demanding and accepting.

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posted June 07, 2003 04:41 AM            

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Teaching esoteric secrets, but not teaching in general.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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posted June 08, 2003 08:39 PM              

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Hi Scorpioncrystal. Your wise woman friend sounds lovely. Perhaps she would be willing to accept a gift of some sort instead of cold, hard cash. If it were of a practical nature it might also lighten her financial burden just a wee bit. A small token of appreciation might seem to her a little more "friendly" and a little less "business".

Randall - when my Guru comes knocking on my door(please God soon)I certainly hope his hand isn't held out expecting a tip. (Although I would be willing to send a check to Greenpeace in his name. But casting an astrological chart isn't just insight and intuition. It's also good old-fashioned,salt of the earth,nose to the grindstone WORK. Isn't that different than the sole "exchange of spritual Truth"?Doesn't that deserve something?

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posted June 09, 2003 01:16 AM            

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Not according to Linda.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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posted June 09, 2003 03:33 AM              

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"No money shall exchange hands..." Interesting debate.

I used to read tarot for friends for free, and two situations arose. One, was that a pal became addicted to having her cards read. We did spread after spread, every week, and she'd frequently beg for "a card of the moment". I admit, I enabled her. I didn't know how to say no, until it reached a point where we stopped to save our friendship. A very big imbalance. The other, was that my reputation began to be spread by word of mouth locally, and although I was still learning, people were approaching me for readings. I wished to help, but didn't feel comfortable charging money-- I was still referring to books during a session, in fact!! -- but I had learned from my enabling days that _something_ needed to be exchanged -- otherwise a healer or psychic or astrologer is helping to build up an imbalance, a debt that is left with the seeker. I had no wish to be the enabling instrument of someone else's accumulated karma.

My solution was barter, and the loveliest exchange I ever had was witih a woman who baked her own bread, and every Friday morning for about 5 weeks she left me a wonderful warm loaf of fresh-baked bread on my porch. These days I still do barter for information-- in a networking sense, when someone appraoches me to ask how to get into my industry, and wants a LOT of info-- unless I am mentoring someone for free, I just tell the person to take me to dinner if they want to pick my brains!

My partner is a Web-whiz, and a designer, and put some of his plans for his creations online, but in this way -- they carry a watermark and are not proper scale -- so whoever wants a proper set of plans, has to take part in his "donationware" program -- send him proof that they have donated money to the charity of their choice, and then he'll email them the decrypt key or the PDF, I forget.

scorpioncrystal, I respect your teacher's humility, but I also believe she is making a mistake unless either she or all you students are re-directing that debt she is accumulating through teaching for free -- maybe you could all make a donation to a charity in her family's name, or organize a party for her, tune up her bike for her, make her a quilt... there has to be a gift of love she will accept. What does she spend her money on, if she struggles to pay the mortgage? Couldn't you all band together and winterproof her house, or fix her lawnmower, or whatever eats up her cash? Gift certificates are great.

In the end, regarding this debate, I think that the term "exchange" must be respected, and creatively. I belong to a non-profit spiritual centre where we pay modest fees for courses and events, but no money goes to teachers -- it's all donations. The administrators are theoretically salaried, but I believe all of their salaries go back into the centre, as they had other careers concurrently and receive good pensions and stipends from the work world. Psychic reading fees are all donated to the centre, again-- nothing paid for teaching. Their great administrative and legal structure allows them to do amazing work and not violate the money for teaching rule. And the structure is their own smart, well-planned, creative response to the dilemma.

Personally if I were going "pro" in a metaphysical/energy field, I would consider asking for something in order to balance any exchange deficit -- there is no use in giving all your gifts and wisdom away unto impoverishment and becoming a box-dweller, despite Carlo's fantasy -- please note it's a fantasy with a laptop!

-bling on...
Lunargirl

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posted June 09, 2003 04:12 AM            

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I'm all for that. It's sort of like how ministers are paid by the church (which you can donate to), but no exchange between minister and those they minister to.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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posted September 08, 2003 11:40 PM              

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To the top!

I thought Magus of Music might wish to see this thread.

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posted September 09, 2003 10:10 AM              

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Yes I would!!!!!!!!!

Ive never cared for those that accept money for such info at all,,,,

They realy do seem alot less acurate,,,and their advice totaly seems to come from a much more material and worldy point of view.

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posted September 10, 2003 09:26 AM            

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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posted September 21, 2003 02:53 AM              

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Actually many mediums who work for money use their Third Eye exclusively -- not their heart chakra, nor do they work from Divine power.

Someone may have the talent but no 'heart', and that kind of person tends to be tied up in their own ego and material issues.

Caveat emptor.

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Posts: 112
From: Okinawa, Japan
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posted September 23, 2003 12:56 AM            

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Hi all! Here's my opinion on the matter ... how I deal with the issue in my own life and how I also see it on the grander scale. Not that you need my permission, but feel free to disagree

I think there is a big difference between teaching somebody a subject and teaching (or sharing) esoteric knowledge/wisdom with somebody for their spiritual development. The kind of knowledge that is taught in schools is very different from intuitive guidance, and I think it is precisely this guidance that marks a great astrologer or psychic or whatever. There is a difference (which I'm sure we're all aware of) between the mundane world and the spiritual world, and the rules are just different. In order to survive on the physical plane, one can utterly and completely ignore the spiritual side of life, and still get along just "fine". (Granted, us Knowflakes may not find that personally true, but remember we've been awakened to something the general populous has not ...) You can go to college, get a career, get married, raise a family, and just live a plain, old, ordinary life, and be none the wiser to the higher side of life. And, being that your existence has been (conciously, at least) entirely on the material plane, your giving and receiving of the universe will be most notable in a material way. You pay for everything in the material plane in a material way; usually with money or some kind of exchange/barter for your needs. It is a cycle in and of itself ... you work for someone to pay your bills and that someone needs you to work for them because they need to make money to pay their bills and the persons they pay their bills to need the money in order to pay their bills ... etc. That's a very simplified explanation, but I hope you understand my point. Money is thus a very important medium of exchange in our material world and "[it] is not evil. Only the use of it and the means of gaining it can cause it to be." Pg. xx of Star Signs, tradepaperback.
That being said, I think it is important to understand that there are many other levels/planes of existence that also affect us all the time and that, if we are willing to listen and be patient, we will become attuned to. The gift of spiritual perception aids one in becoming attuned to these higher realms of life, and thus any insight gained belongs not to this world, but to the plane whence it came.
When one casts a chart, or reads the cards, or explores a lexigram, or performs some "white witch magic" (and the list could go on and on) on a personal one on one basis, the "teacher" is taking on a very great responsibility. He/she is not only going thru the motions about a subject, but is trying to delve deeper into the person in question with the aim of helping that person discover another little bit of themselves. With astrology in particular, I don't pretend to say that the process of attaining such information is a simple one; it indeed involves a lot of hard work, concentration, skill, and knowledge of the science of astrology ... but along with that comes that good old intuitive guidance I mentioned earlier. Anyone (with enough patience and effort) can study astrology and go thru the basics of it ... but that is very different from being an insightful astrologer with the "gift of perception."
It may perhaps seem at this point that I'm simply mincing words, but please continue to read
All the esoteric subjects known and practiced are essentially tools for S-elf development, ie the eventual goal is for each person to discover their own spiritual nature and proceed on their own path. As an astrologer (or psychic or whatever) your main goal should be just that ... your own development. The knowledge you gain from each chart you cast and person you help is, in my opinion, recompense enough. The insight you gain is invaluable to your being, and, although it may not help to pay the rent, it will help to evolve your soul. Astrology is not a career goal, in my opinion, just as being a saint or being a prophet are not career goals either. They are parts of who you are, and who you will become. It is a subject to be studied in earnest by each soul who yearns to learn more about life. There are many labors of love for you to choose from; each person has their own particular niche, and if they listen to the still small voice within, they will certainly discover it. Astrology and the like are fields open entirely and equally to each and every person to discover for themselves at their own pace. You may have a greater leaning towards one subject or another, but it is in an entirely different manner than, say, being gifted in music or dance or art or business or architecture or botany or any other number of career choices. Opening yourself up to receive the guidance of the universe in order to help yourself and others is as selfless an act as choosing to become a parent, which is no easy endeavor. But when you do become a parent, it is not your career choice in the sense that you make money off of it ... you may choose to be a stay at home mom or dad, but there does need to be an outside source of income. Should we be paid for choosing to enrich our lives by procreating and raising a family? No. The "pay" we receive is an entirely different form, but nevertheless very real and completely worth the effort. You are taking another soul's life into your hands to help it grow into a positive being, and you cannot doubt that you will grow as well, and thus be equally compensated for your efforts.
And yes, there are certainly people who do not wish to make the time to devote entirely to the subject of astrology and that is their own personal choice. And if you do choose to study it, it is entirely your choice as well. But to expect to make money off of helping to enlighten yourself and others is ludicruous, I think. Astrology is but one key to attainment. There are many others. And there have been many who've walked the same path before you, with greater innate gifts and thus able to provide far greater service to those in need, who have not charged a cent for the astounding help and wisdom they've shared ... Jesus was one, Edgar Cayce was another.
As far as the difference between being someone's personal astrologer and writing books on the subject is concerned, I think the difference is quite obvious. When you write a book on the subject, you are not setting out to help one person in particular. You are plotting out rules, concepts, and precepts in order to help a person interested figure it out for themselves, leading by example. You also have to have developed a pretty good talent for writing well, cohesively, interestingly, etc, or no one is going to understand or want to read your book. When you switch to the personal arena, you are using that basic knowledge in an entirely different way ... you are seeing the many different relationships between the planets, houses, etc, looking for patterns, noting how they relate to each other, finding the weak spots and the strong spots, listening, counseling, and basically and essentially helping one person out. Helping them to understand themselves and awakening them to their potential ... using your perception to gain even greater insight into the matter at hand. You have a soul in your hands, in much the same manner as raising a child, or even as guru or avatar would help you out in a very personal way, although on a much smaller scale as an astrologer.
As far as the Church reference is concerned, I think if you really desire to devote your life to astrology and do nothing but help others out in that way, then why not consider starting an organization that will be supported by donations and contributions in order to permit astrologers to do nothing but that. And like ministers, priests, or rabbis, the astrologers would technically be quite selfless because I can guarantee you that nobody ever became rich by choosing one of those professions. And don't forget, when you take something as delicate as spirituality and try to make it a business ... well, just look around at the many churches and temples that have failed because of greed or any other number of vices.
Knowledge is power, as the old adage says, and esoteric knowledge is infinitely more powerful than mundane knowledge. It is also not confined to this earthly plane ... which is one of the main reasons WHY it is more powerful.
Nevertheless, it may seem to you that what I've written doesn't apply at all, and that I'm just running off at the mouth. It may seem that I place too much emphasis on the otherwordliness of these esoteric secrets that have been entrusted to us. That's fine. I can only describe it the way I experience it. I try to live my life as fully as I can, between the worlds and maintaining a balance. It isn't easy but it is challenging ... like a square. I hope you can understand what I mean. I'll leave you with the quote, directly from LG:
"It's unfortunate, for example, that there are no 'churches' to support astrologers. They must 'earn their daily bread' in some other manner, and peform their astrological counseling during their precious free time. It's unfortunate, yes, but not as much so as when astrologers charge for their readings, since the ancient teachings say that the one who heeds not the warning forbidding the exchange of money between teacher and student will soon 'lose the gift of perception, ' and connsequently will no longer be sought by the 'students.' To write about esoteric subjects or personal paths of enlightenment in books is not against this law ... The money received by the authors is for their labors at the typewriter, the talent of stringing words together, earned over years of practice and hard work. To earn your bread by writing is the same as to earn your bread by being a craftsman in any endeavor."
P.S. Not that it may be any concern to you or seemingly relevant in any way, I discovered my "path" long before I came across LG's works. I was reading tarot when I was 12, and have always had prophetic dreams and many other inclinations towards a spiritual path. And even as a child of 12 years, I would refuse the money that people would try to give me for my readings. I didn't refuse because somebody told me to. I didn't refuse because I didn't understand that these people wanted to share something with me for the help I was providing them with. I didn't refuse because my family was well off and we didn't need the money (because I can guarantee you we did). I refused because, deep down inside of myS-elf, I knew it was wrong. I felt it. Maybe it's because I have tribal blood coursing thru my veins, I dunno'. I just knew. And every time that someone offers me money for some "special" service I've provided them with, be it interpreting dreams, reading the cards, or navigating my way thru their charts, I still refuse because I still know. That little voice continues to speak to me, just as loud now as it did then, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

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posted September 23, 2003 01:16 AM            

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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posted October 06, 2003 06:04 PM              

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interesting topic
Personally, I feel that charging money from people for healings or readings goes against my personal code... most of the times! I would NEVER charge people for the actual healing! However, I WOULD charge them for my time, if it is obvious that a lot of it is going to be taken up, or for attunements.
It's definitely the case that a lot of people (not all but definitely a lot) do not value TEACHINGS that are given to them for free. My mum's a reiki master amongst many other things, and she's a big one for not charging anything for anything. She attuned practically every one of her students for free, accepting just a token of gratitude from them, like flowers and stuff. Almost all of her students later showed abolutely no respect for what they had learnt, or for her as a teacher. Most of them are no longer even attempting to be in touch with their deeper sides. Granted, a few have benifited enormously, and according to my mum, that 'makes up for all those who decided it wasn't for them'. I say, go with your intuition. If you feel that a person is not going to value what you have to teach them unless you charge them something that they DO value (money!)- (and yes, this was my mother's gut feeling while dealing with most of her students, but which she chose to ignore, feeling that it was immoral to charge anything for teaching reiki)- then CHARGE THEM!!! I don't think it builds up negative karma or anything...

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posted October 17, 2003 12:23 PM              

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Eleanor your assertions are enlighting. In an ideal world I would not favor spiritual exchange "dirtied" by money. It makes it feel common and mundane, doesn't it? Steals the Magic and Mystery. I think your finest argument was made by that 12 year old girl following her heart. The insight of a child, not yet fully obscured by society's allmighty rules and regulations, is the best wisdom of all.

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posted December 08, 2003 10:19 PM              

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I've been wondering about that also. Like most people I was not blessed with money but have had no desire to possess it. Now that I am trying to learn skills to help people useing astrology and herbs I can't seem to bring enough money together to see my dreams come true. I think we should have never come to useing money. I think it was the downfall of society as we see it, our new god has risen and we all fall to our knees to worship. Look at all the things people will do for money!
Now is it the thought of payment or the payment itself that is wrong. If you think back far enough you'll recall there were doctors that went house to house for food and services that made life possible for him and his family. Doctors in China used to charge only when their patient was cured of the illness he sought treatment for and the patients he failed were represented by the number of lanters hung outside his door hense to many lanterns no customers. Even farther back were the medicine men who lived in the village, were supported by the village, revered by the village and were at everyones disposal. The world needs to start back at zero. Think about it. Survial is what you make it to be about. The land we live in provides for the people who live on it, you just have to treat it right. Don't have the talent to grow your own food, build a self sustaining house, live off the land; well you don't have to look to your neighbor. There is a farmer near you who loves to grow things. Do you eat, do you support someone who lives far from you and probibly not even the person who grows it in the first place? Why not support your neighbor? Do you have a talent hes interested in? Trade! The universe helps people who trust and are not demanding. There are many ways to live without money, but is that a life you are willing to live? Only you decide if truely love your profession so much that you offer it as a gift for society and a gift should always be given with no thought of getting a return. Think of this phrase for a couple of days every so often during the day "Do not ask if you have given more than you have recieved, ask your self if you have taken something that someone did not want to give." See how your perception to people changes, really notice if you've ever really paid attention to that before. It might surprise you, I know it did me.
Blessings to all

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From: North Andover, MA
Registered: May 2009

posted December 12, 2003 10:42 PM            

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Greetings...

Here I am again with what may be another unpopular opinion.

First we must clarify what is meant by Teacher. If we mean one that is helping us along our spiritual path, seeding our mind with the mysteries of the Universe and giving us back to ourselves; no, no money should change hands, for this type of Teaching is its own reward.

Not all Astrologers or Tarot Readers or psychics have the gift to write a book or an article, or even to teach a class... BEING something does not necessarily confer the ability to Teach it (which is its own Gift) nor to write about it (a separate Gift.)

As I say, at this point the Astrologer has shelled out many thousands of $$ on computer programs, books, lessons and time invested in mastering the Art. To do a reading is NOT necessarily teaching, but rather advising or consulting. We pay physicians and psychologists and other assorted therapists, and I see no reason why a gifted Astrologer should not charge a reasonable fee for a service rendered.

If you do not wish to pay for a service, you do not need to seek it. If you want to know something astrological, you may study the matter for yourself if you are so inclined. But to expect something (information and personal time) for nothing is outrageous in the extreme, and unrealistic in today's cash and carry society. And certainly to deride a practitioner that finds it necessary to charge for his/her time is absurd; you have no right to judge!

When you have worn the shoes of the people that you want to condemn, so be it. As the Nazarene might say, "judge not, lest ye be judged."

I say that if you want free astrological services, then you need to study the Art for yourself and see what is involved.

As always, I am ...

the opinionated Astrologer...

Blessings...
A

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"Aum bhoor buvah svaha
Tat savitur varenyam
Bhargo devasaya dheemahi
Dhiyo yo naha prachodayat." ****Gayatri Mantra****

"We meditate on the glory of the Creator
Who has created the Universe;
Who is worthy of worship;
Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light;
Who is the remover of Sin and Ignorance;
May He enlighten our intellect."

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From: Saturn next to Charmaine
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posted December 25, 2003 08:31 AM            

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You make a compelling case, A.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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