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Author Topic:   What do you think? 2nd Grade Boy Says He is a Girl
Mirandee
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From: South of the Thumb - Taurus, Pisces, Cancer
Registered: Sep 2004

posted February 12, 2008 07:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mirandee     Edit/Delete Message
What do you think? Can a 7 or 8 year old determine what gender they are? Is the school right or wrong in their decision? Are the parents of the child right or wrong in their decision to support him?

This story has prompted quite a discussion on internet boards such as the following:
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/250116/Color ado_School_District_Embraces_Gender_Change_8_Year_Old_Boy_Says_He_s_a_Girl

(Editor's note: 9NEWS was originally told, and reported the student was in 3rd grade. We have since been told the student is in 2nd grade.)

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=85989

Boy wants to return to school as a girl

HIGHLANDS RANCH – The issue of being transgender usually pops up with students in high school. However, a 2nd grade biological boy wants to dress as a girl and be addressed with a girl's name.


"As a public school system, our calling is to educate all kids no matter where they come from, what their background is, beliefs, values, it doesn't matter," said Whei Wong, Douglas County Schools spokesperson.

Wong says the staff at one of Douglas County's schools is preparing to accommodate the student and answer questions other students might have. In order to protect the child as much as possible, 9NEWS has chosen not to reveal his school or other names that might identify the child.

"I see this as being a very difficult situation to explain to my daughter to explain why someone would not want to be the gender they were born with," said Dave M.

His daughter will be in the same class as the student.

The student had attended this same school in years prior, but had left to go to classes in another district for about two years. The transgender student will be returning to what is the child's home school. Dave M. thinks classmates will recognize the change.

"I do think that there's going to be an acknowledgement that 'Why are you in a dress this year when you were in pants last year?'" said Dave M.

Wong says teachers are planning to address the student by name instead of using he or she. The child will not use the regular boys or girls bathroom. Instead, two unisex bathrooms in the building will be made available. The school is handing out packets to parents who have questions. The packets contain information about people who are transgender.

"I think it is unusual," said Wong. "It's something we haven't had discussions about before. It's something that we haven't maybe really had to think about before, but now we will."

Family Therapist Larry Curry hopes the child and the child's parents are seeing a counselor just to be safe.

"I am very concerned because with the guidelines in place, this is a very early age," said Curry. "I don't know too many parents who are equipped to answer that kind of question or deal with it without some other support."

Kim Pearson says the family is getting support. She is the executive director of a national organization called TransYouth Family Advocates. The group has been working with the family and Douglas County Schools.

"Initially there was a lot of resistance," said Pearson. "Now, their position is they want this child to be safe in their school."

Pearson says their group is working with an increasing number of families nationwide who have elementary age transgender kids.

"We know that families are more comfortable talking about this," she said. "There was no place for parents to go."

Pearson says children as young as 5 years old are realizing their true gender identity and her group wants to help parents who may be resisting the acceptance of this.

"Parents are likely to think this it's a phase, but how long do phases last?" said Pearson. "With these kids, it's something that's very consistent."

That thought is not comforting to Dave M., who believes his daughter is not ready to think about the issue of being transgender.

"I don't think a (2nd) grader does have the rationale to decide this life-altering choice," said Dave M.

He is also unhappy with the way the school is handling this. The district has been preparing for the child's return to this school for months. Dave M. thinks other parents should have been made aware of this sooner.

"I just find it ironic that they can dictate the dress style of children to make sure they don't wear inappropriate clothing, but they have no controls in place for someone wearing transgender clothing," said Dave M.

Curry says parents like Dave M. should not bring the issue up to their students until they ask. However, he says parents should be ready to answer tough questions from the student's fellow third graders.

"I think reassuring them and letting them know that they'll be alright. Their classmate is alright," said Curry. "This is something their classmate has chosen to do. It is not contagious."

Pearson says the most important thing is to make sure the transgender student does not become the target of bullying or verbal abuse which can lead to suicide.

"These children are at high-risk," said Pearson. "Our number one goal is to keep kids safe."

Wong says mental health professionals will be available if students, staff, or parents have any concerns at all. She says the district views this as just another diversity issue and hopes everyone can accept and respect the student's wishes.

"Our staff has been briefed and trained to look for concerns," said Wong.

The family of the transgender student did not want to comment.


(Copyright KUSA*TV. All rights reserved.)




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SunChild
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posted February 12, 2008 07:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message
My younger sister was around the same age when she told everyone she was "really a boy".

In my experience, this is very real, and the way she described her inner male life at such a young age was spooky.

She was all over the front page of our news paper, did radio interviews, and we had a lot of controversy going on about all this.
She did attend school as a boy, with a different name.

What people don't know about is the deep karmic issues... she has to learn to accept the body she was born with in order to release the disharmony she feels, an operation wont make her feel any better. She knows this now, especially after talking to people who regret their sex chang op. and is working toward loving herself, even if she looks severely androgynous. She is learning to love it.
It's her individual karmic lesson. It could be entirely different with others.
She never could accept her female body, it was hard because she was so attached to the man she used to be before.... anyway, long story.

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BlueRoamer
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From: Calm Blue Ocean, Calm Blue Ocean
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posted February 12, 2008 08:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlueRoamer     Edit/Delete Message
Kids these days are getting so precocious.

I blame the internets


SunChild I've read many stories of people who were MUCH happier post-op, I think you need to do a bit more research.

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SunChild
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posted February 12, 2008 09:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message
Yes BR, that's other people!! I was just talking about my sister, everyone else has an individual path. Our and her own beliefs on her transgenderism is completely unique and is not the same for anyone or everyone else, I probably should have mentioned that more clearly before.

We know a huge circle of transgenders who have gone through with the change...I meant to say that my sister specifically wanted to talk to those who regretted it because she wanted to understand it from all sides before she made a decision, which i think was very wise.

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lalalinda
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posted February 12, 2008 09:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lalalinda     Edit/Delete Message
I believe it

here's a great little Movie that deals with this subject.

Ma Vie en Rose
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119590/

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SunChild
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posted February 12, 2008 09:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message
I saw some young teenagers on Opera recently who are transgenders, some of them you wouldn't believe there were actually the opposite sex. Their mental and emotional bodies were completely opposite to their physical bodies!! It's so interesting!

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LEXX
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From: Still out looking for Schrödinger's cat......... fayte1954@hotmail.com LEXIGRAMMING
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posted February 12, 2008 09:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LEXX     Edit/Delete Message
The child needs tested to determine whether the issue is transgender or something else.
Are they sure he is really a boy? He could be Intersexed and only appear to be a boy on the outside.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexuality

http://www.isna.org/
http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexual
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-dressing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgyny
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

What is a male or female was discussed here:

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/016317.html

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/016317-2.html

EDIT to add:
If people would stop stereotyping kids right off from birth then maybe kids would not be so confused.
If its a boy everyone buys blue and guns and non soft things for the boy child. They often tease him or refuse to buy him dolls or soft things to cuddle. The child only exposed to or allowed to play with "boy" things may become envious of girls playing with pretty happy looking, soft cuddly toys instead of hard mock murder toys and construction and war toys. And folks are so stupid as to wonder why boys often grow up more violent and aggressive? And the same goes for girls.
Pink all over, dollies and training to become mommies or worse $luts and over made up bimbos. Boys are pushed to not cry and be all butch and girls are trained to be weak and whiney.
Yeah not everyone raises their kids that way but too damn many do.
Ooooh what a pretty little girl! Oh what a strong little "man". Uh huh. Freaking stereotypes. Strong little girls get confused and sensitive little boys too.
Maybe the little boy above should be freely allowed to express his fem side at home. And maybe his parents could discuss with him that if he still feels the same after puberty they will support him becoming female. Of course now that everyone knows how can he go back to waiting and seeing what his gender orientation will be once hormones kick in?
I hope he has been thoroughly examined for any real physical reason and real psychological reasons not just assumed all this. Maybe he is meant to be gay and still male. Maybe simply a sensitive guy. And yeah, maybe a girl. At such a young age I hope he is receiving competent counseling and has been checked for any physical causes.
OK rant over.
Stereotyping just plain stinks.

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yourfriendinspirit
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posted February 13, 2008 12:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for yourfriendinspirit     Edit/Delete Message
Mirandee, excellent subject and article

I have so many responses each conflicting the other.
I feel it's best to just not give my opinion.

My Libra moon is going absolutely wild...

I would like to remind everyone however, that we are a spirit experiencing a physical life.


------------------
Sendin' love your way,
"your friend in spirit"

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bleakbeauty
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posted February 13, 2008 02:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bleakbeauty     Edit/Delete Message
I just finished watching Transamerica, great movie.

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robyn.c
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posted February 13, 2008 06:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for robyn.c     Edit/Delete Message
at school the girls wear trousers too. i think its crazy that the school go to such lengths as building new toilets because thats not the real world. perhaps this child identifys better with girls and someone is "kindly" pushing for all this? its out of all proportion!!! fools rush in!

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ListensToTrees
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posted February 13, 2008 11:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ListensToTrees     Edit/Delete Message
Well said, LEXX.

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blue moon
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posted February 13, 2008 11:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for blue moon     Edit/Delete Message
Dave M's reponse is typical of many people - worrying about the effect it will have on his own child.

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Mirandee
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From: South of the Thumb - Taurus, Pisces, Cancer
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posted February 13, 2008 12:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mirandee     Edit/Delete Message
I don't think this is anyone's fault. I don't think when it comes to things like homosexuality or hetersexuality or transgenders that we can or should play the blame game. It's no one's fault. Not the child and certainly not the parents. It is all due to nature. It is all due to the mind and what transpires in gestation. It is no one's fault.

If what all the experts on transgenders say and if what it states in the articles posted here about transgenders is true then it would have made no difference what toys the kid was given to play with or what clothes the parents put on the child.

If it true that it is due to something happening during gestation where the body and mind do not agree on the sexual gender of the child, then how can you blame the parents for any of it?

How can you blame the parents for not knowing that the child's mind did not agree with the child's body on what sex the child is? Isn't it normal that if parents give birth to a child with a penis that they are not going to put pretty dresses on him and give him nothing but dolls to play with? Isn't it normal that any parent will assume this is a boy child I have here in front of me and treat the child as a male?

It seems to me that when it comes to transgender children it is the parents who are confused. The child mentally knows what gender he/she is. So if the parents do confuse the child it is only due to their own confusion and their inability to be able to see into the mind of their child. It is only due to being able to see the body's indication of the sexual gender and acting accordingly.

What is said here about parents giving boys guns to play with and girls dolls may have been the case in the past but it is no longer the case with the majoritiy of parents or grandparents. If what is taught about transgenders by the experts and what the transgenders themselves say it would not have made any difference what toys they were given to play with and what manner the parents dressed the child. It didn't make any difference to this child who out and told his parents he was a girl.

By the age of three if you ask a child if they are a boy or a girl they will tell you what sex they are. But that doesn't mean that 3 yr. old boys will only play with cars and guns. My 3 year old grandson has a set of dishes, play food and his own little microwave oven and he prefers to pretend he is cooking to playing with trucks all day. But he also plays with trucks and cars. Truthfully, kids pick their own toys. If a baby from an early age does not care for a toy he/she will not play with it. That applies to all ages of children. They choose their own playthings. When kids are about the age of 5 they also choose their own clothes. They wear what they like. Not what mommy and daddy like.

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Mirandee
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posted February 13, 2008 12:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mirandee     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
Dave M's reponse is typical of many people - worrying about the effect it will have on his own child.

And Dave M should not worry about the effect things will have on his own child? Dave M should instead put other people's children before his own child?

What about the confusion of the other children in this school, in this class who at this age do not even comprehend normal sexuality to now have what is not normal sexuality explained to them by parents who may not wish they even know all this stuff at the age of 7 or 8 years of age? Don't those kids and those parents count at all? What about their feelings?

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blue moon
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posted February 13, 2008 12:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for blue moon     Edit/Delete Message
It's not O.K if it leads to a child being ostracised.

But I'm not going to argue over it. It's half term and I'm getting a break from the playground politics b.s.

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LEXX
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From: Still out looking for Schrödinger's cat......... fayte1954@hotmail.com LEXIGRAMMING
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posted February 13, 2008 01:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LEXX     Edit/Delete Message
Thanks LTT!{{{HUGS}}}

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LEXX
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From: Still out looking for Schrödinger's cat......... fayte1954@hotmail.com LEXIGRAMMING
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posted February 13, 2008 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LEXX     Edit/Delete Message
The child should not have put through this publicity.
Why wasn't home schooling considered? Or enrolling the child in another school?

And again I state....
Has he been examined to determine whether he is a PHYSICAL INTERSEXED child or a PSYCHOLOGICAL condition? Or both.

quote:
Isn't it normal that if parents give birth to a child with a penis that they are not going to put pretty dresses on him and give him nothing but dolls to play with? Isn't it normal that any parent will assume this is a boy child I have here in front of me and treat the child as a male?
No they would not put pretty dresses on him. That is because of society's ideas. Clothes are not a gender specific thing, but only in current fashion. As for giving him only dolls...well giving him only what is considered gender specific is wrong too. Since when does a truck only apply to males? Or caring gentle ways, stuffed animals and dolls and all apply to only a girl?
Give the child both. Don't expect your male child to be all tough and your female child all weak.
My son's father insisted my son wear only boy colors. WTF is a boy color? My son wanted flowered wallpaper in his room, but my ex was horrified. He wanted a My Buddy doll (part of the Rainbow Bright/Strawberry Shortcake doll series). He wanted to take ballet lessons and he wanted to be a cheerleader.
My ex refused. Suffice it to say my son got the toys he wanted with me. All my ex's fears he would turn gay were such a bunch of bull!
My son is married to a woman.
He took home Economics and was top in his class. He made his own prom clothes and other clothes. But having his father call him a "girly boy" etcetera was very hard on him.
quote:
By the age of three if you ask a child if they are a boy or a girl they will tell you what sex they are. But that doesn't mean that 3 yr. old boys will only play with cars and guns. My 3 year old grandson has a set of dishes, play food and his own little microwave oven and he prefers to pretend he is cooking to playing with trucks all day. But he also plays with trucks and cars. Truthfully, kids pick their own toys. If a baby from an early age does not care for a toy he/she will not play with it. That applies to all ages of children. They choose their own playthings. When kids are about the age of 5 they also choose their own clothes. They wear what they like. Not what mommy and daddy like.
It is good when kids are allowed that freedom. But too many are not allowed that. I have known parents to be very cruel if they catch their sons dressing up and playing mommy and their daughters playing daddy. They totally freak out! The next thing you see is the boy's curls are gone and his hair buzzed to the point he looks like a cancer victim and the girl is forced into an ultra feminine role. Heaven's forbid the girl goes fishing with dad and the boy stays home and bakes cookies with mommy. And as another family I knew did, the boys had dolls and tea parties but once they hit school age these things were suddenly taken away. Have you ever seen a boy cry when forced to give up his dolls and teddy bears because MRS. fem mommy and Mr.macho butch daddy think letting him keep them will make him become a OMG, a homosexual? OMG! Your boy likes glitter batons and floweres and oh my, pink!!!!
Or horrors of horrors, lace?
Men used to wear such things.
Now sh!t kickers and falling off their butts pants and horrid buzz cuts mean male. Lovely, a population of guys who look like convicts, and in my area act like thugs too. These kids make babies out of wedlock and turn their sons into little clones of themselves. They treat girls as sex objects and the silly girls go right along with it looking like streetwalkers as young as 6 years old! And then people are surprised when their 12 or 13 year old daughters get knocked up by little Mr. Macho proving he is not a sissy? These girls wear such things as tight t-shirts which proudly proclaim sexy baby or hot babe all in glitter with their bellies showing and made up like drag queens. And folks wonder why their kids are screwed up? Gay bashing, or treating kids who do not fit the stereotypes of male and female, in my area in the elementary up to high schools happens too often. And take one look at the parents and most of the time one can clearly see why their kids act thusly.
People can be very stupid.


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ListensToTrees
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posted February 13, 2008 04:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ListensToTrees     Edit/Delete Message
I say, let people be who they feel they want to be. Let boys who want to be sensitive or effeminate be that way. Let girls who want to be masculine be that way.

If people weren't so intent on the stigma or ostracism of others, we wouldn't have a problem.

If people were free to be the way they feel they want to be regardless, then altering their body probably wouldn't be necessary. Just my theory.

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LEXX
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From: Still out looking for Schrödinger's cat......... fayte1954@hotmail.com LEXIGRAMMING
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posted February 13, 2008 04:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LEXX     Edit/Delete Message
ListensToTrees
Well said!

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