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Author Topic:   On Our Relations To Others
Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 8460
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted July 26, 2008 05:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
[deleted by author]

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Obe
Knowflake

Posts: 169
From: Washington state
Registered: Feb 2006

posted July 26, 2008 11:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Obe     Edit/Delete Message

as a person who has spent much time in isolation, both by choice and not by choice, I personally feel that isolation is horrible for most everyone. I have come to the "point" of realization where there is nothing in my mind and it is all "clear", but yet a human for some reason I remain. I think enlightenment is the easiest state to be in, but that is exactly what we as living humans are trying to change! We are trying to find, not Oneness, for that always is, but the realization that I AM not alone. I have been pushed to follow my instincts, and pushed ever deeper into realizing that where meaning (for life, at least) ultimately lies is in living relationships.

Yeah, unfortunately we're not getting out of it as easy as reaching NIRVANA. There's something dealing with ALL OF US that keeps us here, and we can search all we want for that 'final enlightenment' but we cannot ever find it because it is who/what we are, and who/what we are happens to be exactly WHO WE ARE NOT

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 8460
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted July 27, 2008 12:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Wow, Obe, I think what you said is really interesting,
and it corresponds to a lot of what I've been seeing lately.

"Involvement with the world is unavoidable,
and transcendence is possible only through total immersion."
~ Valerian


thanks for commenting,
HSC

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bunnies
Knowflake

Posts: 349
From: U.K
Registered: Mar 2007

posted July 27, 2008 11:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bunnies     Edit/Delete Message
HSC I shall sue.
You are writing about me and I DEMAND an explanation!
Kindly vacate my head.
I am doing quite well until I read your words!

This is tantamount to trespass and a strongly worded letter will follow shortly!

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LetsDance
Knowflake

Posts: 88
From:
Registered: Mar 2006

posted July 27, 2008 07:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LetsDance     Edit/Delete Message
Bravo, Heart--Shaped Cross, bravo. I'd love to read your finished work on this topic.

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EighthMoon
Knowflake

Posts: 998
From:
Registered: May 2007

posted July 27, 2008 10:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for EighthMoon     Edit/Delete Message
Beautiful, HSC. You're a wonderful writer!

8th

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bunnies
Knowflake

Posts: 349
From: U.K
Registered: Mar 2007

posted July 28, 2008 10:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bunnies     Edit/Delete Message
Isn't he just?

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AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 12910
From: CA, USA
Registered: May 2005

posted July 28, 2008 07:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
Mercury conjunct Mars strikes again. I don't get this.

Isn't the undercurrent of this essay the very same inability to handle a contradictory position that you've assigned to your antagonist?

Also, I perceive you answering notions that weren't put forth, or if they were you didn't mention them here. Did your antagonist really tell you to stop having relationships? And if not, then why give answer to that?

She apparently did say, "No relationship will ever bring you happiness." Why not answer that? What is the nature of happiness? Is it something you can find externally, or is it something that originates within?

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future_uncertain
Knowflake

Posts: 2879
From: ohio
Registered: Aug 2004

posted July 29, 2008 02:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for future_uncertain     Edit/Delete Message
AG~
Your comment inspired me to go back for a second read.

I'm puzzled by your interpretation. Where do you see an inability on the part of the protagonist to handle a contradictory position? It seems that the undercurrent is that there is a need to consider both the yin and yang of a given situation-- that isolating one's self can be part of a solution but mastering the internal while seeking shelter in a state of isolation is only part of the battle, and, therefore, an incomplete solution.

I think the intention of the essay is not so much to answer the question/crisis conclusively, but to demonstrate that it may not be possible to do so because of the dynamic nature inherent in all situations.

You are right that the antagonist did not directly say that Stephen should not continue having relationships, but the description of her as being "contemptuous of (his) romantic proclivities," suggests that she disapproves. The line about relationships not bringing happiness was delivered with scorn, not as friendly advice, thereby warranting (at least in the mind of the protagonist) the aloof remark about being a slow learner.

The essay could have gone on to discuss the nature of happiness as you suggested, but this doesn't appear to have been the author's intention. The first two paragraphs merely serve as an introduction to the real topic by attempting to demonstrate two possible life philosophies by funneling them into the sub-category of romantic relationships.

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AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 12910
From: CA, USA
Registered: May 2005

posted July 29, 2008 03:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
The thing is...his antagonist is likely here at LL. Ruling out the married people who antagonize him (who obviously couldn't be the anti-social, or the relationship-haters), it leaves very few possibilities.

So knowing this, and reading this response the first thing I'm inclined to disagree with is the anti-social nature he describes his antagonist as having. Is a person who gets involved in these kinds of conversations with him really anti-social? Have they really sworn off relationships even as they speak with him? I think that notion contradicts itself, and is probably an unfair assessment. (Of course, maybe she has alluded to not wanting to get involved with anyone else at this time, but if she has found happiness in the absense of romantic relationships, why would she be inclined necessarily towards being in relationships?)

Don't get me wrong either, HSC is absolutely one of my favorite people here (and I one of his). I know he's a thinker, and I respect that. I just don't know if he's fully examined the idea he's contradicting. Unfortunately, it's also clear that he wanted to get a few jabs in on his antagonist. The essay would have had more integrity if it wasn't aimed so personally.

quote:
the description of her as being "contemptuous of (his) romantic proclivities," suggests that she disapproves.

But was she really contemptuous, or was that his read on her because she disagreed with him?

The aloof remark about being a slow-learner actually gave credence to what preceded that answer. If someone is saying that she can't find happiness outside herself, but rather she can find it on the inside, then she is telling me that she believes emotions are what we create within ourselves. It's a contributing factor towards the idea of self-love being the foundation that relationship-love is built upon. I hold that belief myself, so were I in his antagonist's place, these are the things I would be saying in defense of my words. His witty comeback actually coincides with this antagonizer's philosophy, because both suggest that the root of the emotion is within the person. She encourages him to find happiness within, and he suggests that he's filled with too much hope to give up on having relationships.

I am glad you asked about it, though, because it probably warranted me saying more than I initially did.


    "I sat you down and told you how the truest love that's ever found is for oneself. You pulled apart my theory with weary and disinterested sigh." - Starlings by Elbow

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26taurus
Knowflake

Posts: 14582
From: *
Registered: Jun 2004

posted July 29, 2008 02:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 26taurus     Edit/Delete Message
Very well said, AG.

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Obe
Knowflake

Posts: 169
From: Washington state
Registered: Feb 2006

posted July 29, 2008 07:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Obe     Edit/Delete Message
yes it is very well-written, and brings up a very valid point that I think lots of us need to listen to too

you should definately post more of your writings!

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 8460
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted July 30, 2008 01:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 8460
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted July 30, 2008 01:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Thanks, Obe.

Yeah, I figured the scales were already heavily tipped in the other direction,
and it was high time that someone gave expression to this side of the story.

take care,
HSC

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future_uncertain
Knowflake

Posts: 2879
From: ohio
Registered: Aug 2004

posted July 30, 2008 12:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for future_uncertain     Edit/Delete Message
This involves more than I was aware of...

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 8460
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted July 30, 2008 01:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
It always does.

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AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 12910
From: CA, USA
Registered: May 2005

posted July 30, 2008 03:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
On Our Relations to Others

When someone makes me feel judged, I may try to parody what they said in order that they might feel equally judged. I will do it under the guise of a philosophical discussion.

The End

That's really the extent of what I see in what you've wrote. You may as well just say I felt like someone kicked me when I was down, and I'm still thinking about it.

She's not a monster, and I don't think you get her. Often we don't understand our opposite signs. I have a perfect Sun to Sun trine with her (our Moons are also conjunct), and the majority of my best friends have been Tauruses. My current best friend kept things remarkably superficial for years before he let me in. They don't owe people intimacy.

_________________

With regard to people needing to have relationships with others, I agree with you (I have a concentration in the 7th, how could I not?). I think anyone who's been a regular member of any forum would have to agree with you. We do learn a lot from our interactions with others. We learn about ourselves, we learn about others, and most importantly we hopefully learn strategies that improve our quality of life.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 8460
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted July 30, 2008 06:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
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26taurus
Knowflake

Posts: 14582
From: *
Registered: Jun 2004

posted July 30, 2008 08:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 26taurus     Edit/Delete Message
Well, I wasnt sure if the woman you were refering to was me, but now I am.

I'm not sure what to say... I'm shaking right now, on the verge of tears and feel like I need to throw up. This is extrememly unsettling and disheartening to me. This is probably the effect you were trying to achieve though. It is also very strange because I am not the person you think i am or the woman described. But because I have not felt the urge or need to explain myself to you over the years, or prove that to you, I am now being portrayed as a selfish monster with no feelings.

The person you describe here is your views and judgements of her and that is all. You have never even met me HSC. You really know next to nothing about the majority of what has gone on in my life over the past year especially. If you knew how hard and tumultuous it has been for me, and how VERY GIVING I have been in my daily life, you would surely be singing a very different tune.

The part that makes me most sad is that you would do this to someone on a public forum. What is the point? I'm sorry I was always "too busy" to return your emails or call you. If that makes me a evil witch then i don't know what to say to you. I'm sorry I didnt fawn all over you like a lot of other females do.

AG is right when he says:

quote:
She's not a monster, and I don't think you get her.

But you have convinced yourself that you can see right through everyone and right into their souls or psyches. Even more clearly than they can. You don't realize how much that hinders you.

I asked you not to contact or address me in another thread. Now here you go with this? Sneakily and trying to provoke me. You have mentioned many times that you like to "provoke" me. Why? Please stop. I really don't need it right now. If you knew anything about my life, you would surely ease up on me. And let me be as I wish to be without your input or judgements.

Didnt you start another thread saying you met your dream girl? That's AWESOME! Why dont you focus on her!! And yourself. Arent you writing a book? I mean, seriously, why do you want to publicly make me out to be a horrible person who needs your help or the help of other people??? I am not! Whether you want to believe that or not.

quote:
Some of us have warm feelings, and we give because we feel warmly and want to give. Some of us.

And it would be fine if she just admitted to being that way, but instead she makes a thousand lame excuses, about how she is rushed for time, etc.

I let her put me off with that bullsh-t for too long, before I realized the truth; that she never has "enough" time for anyone but herself.


Do you know how much I give EVERY SINGLE DAY? Do you know what I am working on right now for an Animal Rights League that I happily turned down recieving compensation for? There are a number of other things I could tell you about, to prove what a caring and giving warm-hearted person I am, but I don't understand why I am supposed to prove that to you.

I am secure in the fact that I am a good person. Just because I havent "proved" that to YOU doesnt mean I am not. Just because I didnt give you enough attention, was always "too busy", or silent, doesnt mean I am an evil person! What is so hard to get about that?

My "lame excuses" about how I was rushed for time were true. I work for a living HSC - HARD. I have worked hard my whole life and am finally coming into my own in my career as a self employed person. I am trying to make my way in life and focusing on me right now. Something I havent done enough of in my lifetime! Yeah, seriously.

I mentioned about all this in another thread because I am excited. I am working hard to change my life so I can live a better one. I'm sorry if talking about that makes me selfish or self centered. I am working very hard every day to get somewhere in life. I don't rely on a man to take care of me and am trying to make a living for myself. I am trying to utilize my God given talents and DO something with my life. I am sorry if, to you, that makes me self centered and automatically means I care nothing about anyone else.

It's been a long hard road for me, HSC. It still often is. Please, give me a break.

quote:
I let her put me off with that bullsh-t for too long, before I realized the truth; that she never has "enough" time for anyone but herself.

That is your sorry "truth". Not mine.

It's interesting how you interpreted my words in the first post. When I read them, I learned alot about you. Maybe you didnt purpously twist them and that's really how you interpreted everything.

There is alot more I'd like to address, but I have to get going atm...
Yes, I alot I need to focus on and it's not only MYSElF, HSC.

I'm also feeling like this is completely weird and crazy and am kind of scared about it all.

I really don't want to get sucked in. So I may just not return.

If you want to b*tch me out some more, you can email me HSC.

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26taurus
Knowflake

Posts: 14582
From: *
Registered: Jun 2004

posted July 30, 2008 08:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 26taurus     Edit/Delete Message
Acoustic God, Thank you very much.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 8460
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted July 30, 2008 08:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
I hope you're right, T.

I hope I am wrong about you.

You hurt me and I've felt unfairly judged by you on dozens of occassions.

Anyway, I'm sorry.

So many emotions, the best and worst, have been dislodged in me lately.

It hasnt been easy to handle.

You're right, I dont know what you go through.

And I dont like this side of myself, but I saw something...

And maybe I was wrong. Maybe I was. I'm sorry.

I dont mean to scare you. I'm not scary.

I'm not going any further with this. And I'm sorry.


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juniperb
Knowflake

Posts: 7018
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Mar 2002

posted July 31, 2008 09:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message
This is about as disgraceful and meanspirited as you can get HSC...

IF you are truely sorry and see the mean bone you are stabbing with, you would DELETE this subjective, judgemental and downright distasteful diatribe.

This is another violation of trust of those who have confided in you and trusted you. This is simply history repeating it`s self ... when HSC, will you Learn ????

In that vein, Has your behaviour become a bottomless pit of venonous attacks on those who don`t mollycoddle your "wisdom" or see you in the same way you see yourself?


AG

quote:
She's not a monster, and I don't think you get her. Often we don't understand our opposite signs.


juni

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

- George Eliot

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wheelsofcheese
Knowflake

Posts: 799
From: UK
Registered: Jan 2008

posted July 31, 2008 10:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wheelsofcheese     Edit/Delete Message
26T is one of the gentlest and most giving people on here. I have seen so much of that from her and I think she's awesome.

This thread is horrible and I recognise none of these characteristics in her. How would you feel if someone did that to you HSC? This place is home for all of us.

Concentrate on the love which you have been lucky enough to attract.

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wheelsofcheese
Knowflake

Posts: 799
From: UK
Registered: Jan 2008

posted July 31, 2008 10:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wheelsofcheese     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
After suffering a number of disappointing relationships, a certain woman was resolved to find solace in isolation, and she avidly received and distributed philosophies sympathetic to her purpose. "Go within," she would say, "there is no one else but you," by which she clearly meant her

And what's wrong with that exactly? Why after many failed relationships should anybody be arrogant enough to think they have ANYTHING to offer another person before they get their own house in order? You have your house in order, so you're going for it. Good for you, although after this magnificent display of sour grapes I have to wonder. I happen to agree with her statement entirely and in fact that's what I'm doing myself.

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juniperb
Knowflake

Posts: 7018
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Mar 2002

posted July 31, 2008 03:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message
Our Dealings with Our Relations

Hazrat Inayat Khan

The Law of Beneficence


Our Dealings with Our Friends


Our love, kindness, service, and sympathy are due to people in the world, and especially to those around us, according to their expectation. A stranger naturally expects less than an acquaintance; an acquaintance expects less than a friend; and a friend, less than relations. Therefore these have more right to ask for our love and service, and it is our first duty to give it to them. It does not matter if they do not give us the same, or if they do not prove worthy of our ideal. It is a mistake for wise people to expect the same from them or to expect everyone to prove worthy of their ideal, when it is so difficult even for ourselves to prove worthy of our own ideal.

However highly we may think of ourselves, in the end at the examination we fail. Therefore the wise thing would be to do all the good we can to those who expect it from us, and especially to those who consider it their right to expect it from us, without even thinking whether they will return it or whether they deserve it.

There are some who stand by their relations with pride. Taking the part of the relation and standing by the relation with pride is right, for this is the first step towards human brotherhood. A person cannot jump at once to universalism. There are some who have a sort of natural hatred of their relations, and they love those who have no connection with them. But they are mistaken, for a person who cannot love his own brother will never be able to consider another person as a brother, because he has neglected learning his lesson at home. Far from hating his relations, a wise man will not even hate his enemy. By hating relations for their unworthiness you make them more unworthy; whereas by loving them, some day you will be able to draw out the worthiness that you seek in them.

Harmony at home spreads out, and makes the world harmonious for us; and inharmony at home spreads out throughout the world, and builds an inharmonious world for us. For instance, a person who has quarrelled at home and gone to China, and settled there to have peace, has taken the disharmony with him to China, and can never be at peace all his life.

However badly situated we may be in life, if we try our best to master the situation, it is far better and greater than wishing to change the situation, for this is nothing but a weakness. Among relations it is so wonderful when there is harmony between brothers and sisters, a link of love and harmony between husband and wife, and especially love and devotion between parents and children. Verily, there is no greater light than love.

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

- George Eliot

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