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Author
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Topic: Is Seduction Ethical?
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trillian
Newflake Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 29, 2004 12:35 PM
  
Nope, can't see how anyone can be ticked off about anything on the body, including nipples. They're beautiful. And functional.  Exactly, pixel. IP: Logged |
trillian
Newflake Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 29, 2004 12:53 PM
PPFM, you are conservative. That's you, who you are. It's all good.  IP: Logged |
PlayfulPonderingFishMoon
unregistered
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posted April 29, 2004 02:32 PM
pixel and trillian,I get what you are both saying in a certain way here, but, I still just think that a sense of good taste should have precipitated anyone putting a performance like that one on like they did then and there. Yes, the body is beautiful, and yes, some people choose to expose it more freely than other people do, and that's all well and good, and I really don't care if that's how they express their sexuality at a party such as the type that goes on at the PlayBoy Mansion etc.... But these performers should have had the common sense to know that not EVERYONE watching the Super Bowl, of all things, is interested in seeing THAT kind of show be put on during THAT kind of occasion. I just think they should have had better manners than to take it upon themselves to think that everyone was interested in watching them perform in the same mode within that stadium that they would perform in at one of their concerts, since this wasn't an event that their audience had obtained tickets to go and see for that particular reason at all. I mean, come on, they couldn't have toned it down out of consideration for the more general audience that was watching them that day, since this Super Bowl audience was obviously probably going to consist of people who were not all that into attending their concerts in the first place? I mean, it's just common sense because there is a time and a place for everything.
And trillian....
as I said, I really don't care what turns any other woman on when it comes to her own expression of her sexuality either. If she wants to expose herself naked in a magazine or on the Internet for whatever reason, then that's part of the journey that she has undertaken to find and experience her own personal sexuality, etc.... But, I don't know if it's really your own place to put an entire label on me as a person just because I don't happen to share your own views about those things, but whatever. I just don't like the display of that kind of stuff in such a public arena like the Super Bowl stadium, so sue me. I do feel that it is tacky behavior to put it 'all out to the public' at that time and place. I have no problem with women exposing themselves if they so choose to on the general principle of it at all, but the halftime show at the Super Bowl just isn't that time or place for that to me, and I think that this idea about freedom of expression has clouded people's visions on that. In a strip club, at a burlesque show, at a rock concert, at a private party, on a nude beach, in an art class, for an adult magazine, in an R rated movie, at a theater presentation where you already know ahead of time that the show will include that exposure beforehand, and on and on and on.... I say go for it if it's what you need to do. But come on, have some consideration to know that not everyone watching THAT particular show has such a burning desire to see you perform in that particular manner right at that particular moment, you know. Obviously, it was really the organizer's fault for not following up and checking on everything ahead of time. It was supposed to be rated G for General Audiences, I would think. I am a little bit sorry that I have to be labeled 'conservative' just for having good taste and manners to know when to and when not to take it upon myself to expose my private parts that way, but hey, there are a lot worse things that I could be called by people, lol. If these performers wanted to take the Super Bowl concert and make it into such a replica of their usual standard concerts, then I do think that the network should have run a disclaimer about what was going to be included in the show beforehand, but that's just me. I actually feel that I am much more of a Moderate in my beliefs than I am a Liberal OR a Conservative. I don't care about what people do at the most appropriate time and places, and I am not like trying to shut down every nude beach just because I wouldn't happen to walk around naked on one of them myself.... But, in honor of that yin / yang balance you yourself always keep mentioning here, I do think that nude beaches equal Fire, and Super Bowl equals Water, meaning that.... what is appropriate for one place is really not appropriate for another place all at the same time. I think that I have a healthy, respecful attitude which honors both sides, but I guess you see it all differently though. No harm done between us on that score. But I still just don't believe in labels like you used up above, that's all, as you can tell by now anyway, lol.
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"Somewhere once I had read a description of eternity. 'If there were a mile high mountain of granite, and once every ten thousand years, a bird flew past and brushed it with a feather, by the time that mountain was worn away, only a fraction of a second would have passed in the context of eternity.'" IP: Logged |
pixelpixie
Newflake Posts: 8
From: ON Canada
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 29, 2004 02:53 PM
PPFM~
I am not sure where you are from. But I am in Ontario, Canada. It is legal here for a woman to expose her breasts.
If a woman is walking down the street, very hot, and the man she is with takes off his shirt, she can legally do it too, with no recourse. (How many times has a woman said~"It's not fair, I wish I could do that!"
Now, she can.
Would you find it distasteful if you were to happen upon a woman walking down the street bare breasted... understand she is not thrusting them in anyone's face, or being sexual.. she is just existing, maybe even perfecting her no-tan-line tan. She didn't advertise or warn anyone she was going to do this, and yet she is walking down the same street as you.. possibly even Grandparents or their grandchildren.
What would be your reaction to that?
I think initially, I'd be like~ "Oh look, she has the balls (or something  .) To ACTUALLY do that, You go, girl!" I would be a tad taken aback, but not ashamed for her or shocked that she'd dare expose herself to random people on the street. I wouldn't label her promiscuous or anything, I would admire her.
I think if we react to that in shock or shame, we are sending a message that the human body is ONLY sexual. As you well know, and you pointed out before, that isn't the case. And to share your body and it's nudity in a sexual way with someone, is sacred, but to share the air on your skin and the sun on your full back and chest is liberating and Universal. We need to change our reactions. If we take our children and gasp and say.."Look away" we are sending a message that in some unspeakable way, the human body is shameful. We can always say to them.. this person chooses to not wear clothes, but I would prefer if you did wear them... or something else acceptable to you... but like in other societies, as long as we perpetuate skin=sex, our progress will be slow coming.
Just my opinion as well.*I just thought I would offer another schenario to you, as you were referring to places nudity would be acceptable as "nude beaches, playboy parties, the strippers or burlesque shows." (natural, sex, sex, provocative/sex)Sexually charged atmospheres. IP: Logged |
Carlo
unregistered
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posted April 29, 2004 03:17 PM
 Yes, American women, you have your Canadian sisters to thank for knocking down the laws that prohibit women from going topless in public, Canada is the only place in North America where you can do that (and if I am not mistaken, it still is not all of Canada, just some provinces). Who among you is going to take a stand here, and fight for your right not to be forced to wear tops at all times in the US? Put your money where your bra strap is! I think the group's name that won the battle for a woman's right to equality of dress is called something like the Boob Brigade, is that it? And you go! woowoowoo! I am definitely a boob man, too. I mean, everyone I know always says, "You're a boob, man!" lol IP: Logged |
pixelpixie
Newflake Posts: 8
From: ON Canada
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 29, 2004 03:27 PM
"You're a boob, man!"
IP: Logged |
PlayfulPonderingFishMoon
unregistered
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posted April 29, 2004 03:40 PM
I get what you are saying, and I actually see your points about all of it, and quite honestly, I really have no idea how I'd feel about seeing topless women walking around on the streets anyway, since it isn't legal where I am living right now in the first place.But if it did become legal, then I know that people would be prepared to see it, since it would be common knowledge that some women were indeed going to be exposing themselves in that way for those reasons from now on, what with the new laws regulating that new level of exposure for them to be able to do it, etc.... However, still pertaining to the Super Bowl / Janet thing, those were performances put on by everyone in that show, male AND female, which everyone in the audience should still have been given fair warning about. Maybe I just don't want my child to hear those particular lyrics, or see those particular sights, put across by EITHER of the men and women in that show once that show starts.... and it's a really big hassle for me to get them out of the room with everyone visiting me that day.... and, as far as I know, I really don't expect that show to be so sexually titillating since it IS supposed to be happening during the Super Bowl, which is a national event known as one that is meant to be suited to the entire family.... and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.... I don't have any kids, and that didn't happen to me, but I can see the point of the parents who wish that they had been given the fair choice to know about those performances ahead of time anyway. When those things are not expected to be exposed at that time, I just feel that it is good manners to give people fair warning that they might be seeing something within that show that they might not want to see, ala the way we have movie ratings to inform us of all of that, etc.... It's just my personal opinion on the whole question of having good rating systems for children and parents etc.... And also, that Super Bowl performance actually WAS put across in an overtly sexual manner the whole way through with those lyrics which accompanied those movements. When Justin ripped off her garment, wasn't he actually singing something about 'wanting her sex right now?' all at the exact same time? Lol So, from what I could tell, that exposure of her's that day had nothing to do with her getting a good tan at all, lol. I think that everyone involved in that show should just have had more forethought about the time, place, and occasion of all of it, that's all. We don't agree about it, no big deal. Must be that open and upfront honesty thing with me again, I guess, lol. If you ARE going to be so overtly sexual with your lyrics and gyrations, or expose yourself in front of my children or me, please make me aware of that ahead of time, so I can make an informed decision about whether I want to see, or if I want my children to see, that whole thing before it all happens, ok? Lol
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"Somewhere once I had read a description of eternity. 'If there were a mile high mountain of granite, and once every ten thousand years, a bird flew past and brushed it with a feather, by the time that mountain was worn away, only a fraction of a second would have passed in the context of eternity.'" IP: Logged |
trillian
Newflake Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 29, 2004 03:58 PM
No insult or harm was intended, PPFM. You called yourself conservative in an early post......but nevermind, I take it back. You're not conservative. And I'll resist the urge to call you a shameless hussy or anything that I consider playful, that might be misinterpreted.... Life's too serious to take it seriously. Let's have fun.
Smoke something.
Get nekkid.
I'll bring the margaritas.
Who will join me in the hot tub?
Make Love Not War. IP: Logged |
Carlo
unregistered
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posted April 29, 2004 04:01 PM
Yeah, some people would call it interracial rape on the airwaves. I call it..."Miss Jackson if you're nasty!"I mean why do they call it the boob tube if you can't flash a little boobie now and then...this country is so frikkin' backward, and the media conglomerates are all run by bowtied bumkissers of the fascist right, so... Hey Mr. Ashcroft, the statue's nipple is showing!!! Hurry, cover it up!!! All I have to say to that is...  Have a nice weekend, see you all next moonth, and hopefully by then you will all be topless! Love,
Carlo IP: Logged |
trillian
Newflake Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 29, 2004 04:02 PM
Right On Brother. IP: Logged |
pixelpixie
Newflake Posts: 8
From: ON Canada
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 29, 2004 04:10 PM
quote:
Let's have fun.
Smoke a joint.
Get nekkid.
I'll bring the margaritas.
Who will join me in the hot tub?Make Love Not War.
I'll bring the blender.. (actually, can I borrow yours? The ice crusher on mine just SUCKS!!!) I'm THERE! IP: Logged |
trillian
Newflake Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 29, 2004 04:12 PM
Mine is brand new!
Par-tay! (sheesh I'm a geek. only geek say par-tay. but I did say it with a rather sardonic grin. and saying sardonic grin just makes me more of a geek) IP: Logged |
pixelpixie
Newflake Posts: 8
From: ON Canada
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 29, 2004 04:18 PM
Yes, so next time just say~ "Bourbon and Gin".. it rhymes....
 IP: Logged |
Eleanore
Moderator Posts: 112
From: Okinawa, Japan
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 29, 2004 04:57 PM
Well, actually, I think the reason a lot of women choose to not expose their bodies because it is such a sacred thing is precisely the fact that there are people out there who will think nothing but sexual thoughts about it.
Our bodies are beautiful sacred things which is precisely why it's ridiculous that all people can think about when they see them is sex. It's really kind of sad when you think of it. I'm not saying I'm anti-sex or anything, but geez that isn't the sole reason we have bodies and all their wonderful parts.
What I meant to say was that the guilt associated with sex and the naked body is what leads to people being offended by nudity or by being naked and being concerned by others feeling aroused when looking at them. I don't understand why sex is such a big deal. The only reason people make money off of sex and sexually explicity lyrics and movies and books and whatnot is because it's taboo, it's something that isn't generally approved of by our parents and elders. It all goes back to the idea that women are dirty and that sex is wrong, pushed ahead mostly by Christians and Jews. Eve ... oh no that dirty woman ... Mary Magdalene ... oh no that dirty woman. Those ideas are being questioned now, of course, but they've been circulating the mass conciousness of humanity for a very long time. Take a look at Star Notes and look at the prayers that all kinds of religious men say in regards to women ... Star Notes March letter, page 2. Priests, our "holy" men, are not supposed to have sex because it's so darn wrong. And the whole thing about Jesus not being born from sex has added to that stigma ... I personally wonder why, if the immaculate conception was a reality, people don't focus on the fact that he chose to come from a woman only instead of from both a man and a woman, that should be a clue to something right there. 
You can't deny that America was swamped with Puritanical ideas upon it's foundation. I'm not saying I have anything against Puritans, but why should I have to deal with restrictions based on their views?
If people didn't have these preconceived ideas about sex and nudity being wrong, or that nudity automatically implies sex, then there wouldn't be anything to explain to children or feel guilty or embarassed about. Little kids run around naked with their brothers and sisters or take showers together and they don't think it's gross. They don't even think about sex because they don't know what it is.
LOL, then they go to school and learn "sex education". I was in fifth grade when they first brought that issue up. I was still trying to figure out why some boys made me giggle when they smiled at me. I think "anti-sex education" would be a more appropriate term based on my experiences with the whole darn lessons. "Here's a boys body, here's a girls body. Let's learn about how we're different physically. Let's learn exactly what these different parts are for. We know you haven't hit puberty <insert meaning of puberty> yet, but this is going to happen soon and you should know about it .... So now that you know about your sex-organs and what they're for ... don't go out and do it. It's not something you're ready to do. You have to wait until you're older and preferrably married because that's the right way to do it. And here are all the negative things, very bad scary things, that can happen if you do have sex before then... <insert tirade about std's and the horrors of pregnancy>"
The menstrual cycle was always something to "have to deal with". Pregnancy was always going to be a pain and giving birth couldn't be anything less than excruciating. Nobody talked about the glories of love. Nobody talked about the beauties of being a mother one day. It was all very disturbing and aimed at keeping us from doing the "wrong" things with our bodies after they told us what the parts in question were for. I had never really noticed that women had breasts before! They were just there. I hadn't gotten to the point, on my own, were I was questioning those things yet. And then it was mandatory to learn it and presented in such an awful, negative way that my friends and I didn't know what to think. "Why ever have sex if it's so bad?" "Why am I cursed with having a period?" "Why is it going to hurt when I have a baby?" "I don't think I ever want to be a mommy." Meanwhile, in the back of our heads we're wondering why sex is so bad if it's necessary for life. "Well, it can't be a bad thing, can it?" "If they're so worried about us doing it, they must not be telling us everything." "What if sex is a good thing?" "Well, we won't know until we find out for ourselves." "Oh, no, you can't have sex, it's wrong and it's dirty and you could die!" "Yeah, I guess you're right ... but I don't know ..."
I'm all with Linda on this issue about "sex education".
Hopefully, one day, people will get over their hang-ups about sex. Hopefully, the stigmas surrounding it will be gone and nobody will be "tempted" by it because it won't be seen as something inappropriate. Then, hopefully, people will stop looking at a naked body and only think about sex. That way, if someone decides to walk around topless, no one is going to go into a panic and feel uncomfortable about their kids seeing ... omg ... breasts!
BTW, here's a link to a website called "Yoni" which is a site devoted to women. The link I'm providing is an almost unbelievable article regarding sex from 1894.
Instruction and Advice for the Young Bride
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"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Ghandi IP: Logged |
PlayfulPonderingFishMoon
unregistered
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posted April 29, 2004 05:10 PM
Edited for content by Playful, lol.... ------------------
"Somewhere once I had read a description of eternity. 'If there were a mile high mountain of granite, and once every ten thousand years, a bird flew past and brushed it with a feather, by the time that mountain was worn away, only a fraction of a second would have passed in the context of eternity.'" IP: Logged |
WychOfAvalon
unregistered
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posted April 29, 2004 05:51 PM
Well truly video games are not just a man thing. My big addiction is the Sims on the PC. I can sit and play it for 8 hours straight. Then there are RPH games that I deliberately stay away from because I *know* I'll be 6 inches from the monitor for weeks if I buy them! I even make skins of myself for the Sims     IP: Logged |
Carlo
unregistered
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posted April 29, 2004 06:04 PM
Wow!!! She looks like she could give Lara a good fight The only problem with Lara is that damn British accent...other than that, she does what she's told So what type of trouble does your character get into? I know next to nothing about the Sim worlds.Love,
Carlo IP: Logged |
sthenri
unregistered
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posted April 29, 2004 06:42 PM
Playful Fish, if you want to get angry about something, it's okay with me. We all have to express ourselves somehow, and anger is a healthy way sometimes, I really think it's true.
I can feel a lot of righteous anger from you, which when channelled is very positive.Remember the Bob Marley quote:
God is my father he gives me guidance
In my right hand is Justice
In the left hand Faith, In other words your morality is up to you, and you have to stand firm with it. However you want to express it, emotionally or analytically, your life is yours to live and others do try to take it away from you, mentally and emotionally. I do not particularly care much for football, but if I did I wouldn't like anyone's breast in my face while everyone was watching and laughing, after all I am not a joke why am I portrayed as one? It can be seen that way, humanity is degraded so well in the USA. I agree that women ought to go topless but I have no wish to in front of US men. I like other places and countries where morals have less hypocrisy and families are more central. There isn't time for fooling around because honest spirituality is taken for granted. I just will always have a dim view of US "morality" it's run by salesmen. I think that if I feel like a Predator seduction if not right. and IT"S SO TRUE, that I do not want a man to play the victim with me. I do not like a tease who wants to feel better about himself. I never planned to make life easy for anyone. It's okay if he leaves her, I won't make him wait a year, but he has to make a sincere effort. I will keep you posted as to what the efforts are so you can judge. I am pretty ineffective at judging a man's actions this way, I am dense around attractive IN SHAPE men. And I will try and stay away from wine,
But I will keep wearing the velvet spandex.
Did I mention he makes little noises when he is hugging me, sighs? Natasha
Taurus IP: Logged |
sthenri
unregistered
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posted April 29, 2004 06:50 PM
Speaking of righteous anger, have you ever noticed how people raised outside the US have no idea why US salespeople are so rude?I was moral support for purchasing a car (in Florida) with a Haitian born France raised friend and he is black, in stark contrast to how white I am. Anyway the salesmen refused to even look at us and when I nagged them finally let me into a car but not him. Then I wasn't allowed to drive it because they said they were too busy! They were so nasty we just left. But my friend couldn't belive it. I said that's the USA, nasty salespeople. Still it's not right, it's disgusting, what a way to treat someone from another country. In reality he could of been Finnish and the salesman would have done the same, anyone who is different or unusual is trouble and not worth the time. Why are salespeople so rude in the US compared to other countries? It's the same in every state I've visited, not just the South. Everyone has the right to get angry at who they want, it's uncomfortable but there ought to be a way to express the truth right then and there without fear. Bigotry, Sexism, Racism, it's amazing how we sucked into so many themes that we take for granted in this country. Welcome to the USA. Natasha IP: Logged |
PlayfulPonderingFishMoon
unregistered
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posted April 29, 2004 07:34 PM
Edited for content by Playful once more, lol....
IP: Logged |
sthenri
unregistered
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posted April 29, 2004 08:37 PM
Playing Fish, I get what you mean, you have Venus in Aries too right?Yes it is objectifying, BUT it's a power that can be used for good or evil. I though for a long time that only the men had the power to objectify but as women we hold the power as well, equally, as the object and it's up to us to use it well or not. Like a knife it can cut to heal or hurt.
You have to learn to wield the power like a surgeon holding a scalpel. We start out not knowing and evolve. I think women can use that power if they feel it, to be a positive role model for men and women, and use the power of presence for good. A woman can choose to say something profound, or make her presence known in a way that is inspiring by what she is saying through her personality and believe in that. Of course this depends on faith and confidence. Who ever the predator is, in my opinion, is the one with the most confidence preying on the one with the weakest, not the other way around. Natasha
IP: Logged |
LeylaLeFay
unregistered
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posted April 29, 2004 09:49 PM
Does't everyone want to be seduced? Haven't you ever "played coy" so that your partner would *have* to seduce you?IP: Logged |
Virgo-AriesArtist
Knowflake Posts: 175
From: Michigan :)
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted April 29, 2004 11:15 PM
Hehe... I don't exactly tell everyone this, but... my All-Time biggest fantasy is to be seduced, semi-against my will, more like playfully, but masculinely "overpowered". I think it goes along with my general attraction to men I believe are capable of being stronger than me, physically huskier/stockier. Also, it'd be great if he then let me seduce him back. Physical sensations are my undoing, as with all the earth in my chart, touch is a potent vulnerability. Not necessairly a bad thing in some situations ------------------
-K
"Most people love with restraint
As if they were someday to hate
We hated gently, carefully
As if we were someday to love"-Venus Trines at Midnight IP: Logged |
astro junkie
unregistered
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posted April 30, 2004 12:19 AM
I think Virgo influences creates a Pygmalion streak... I have Venus & Pluto in Virgo, and for me it's true. It's what I gravitate towards when things start getting warm... it's a big part of my style of pure love as well. Guys can barely understand this about me because I have another side of me; "the single, independent, hardheaded girl who also wants to give up all control, so you better know what you're doing!"In the back of your mind you're thinking, THIS is not cool. Modern women don't behave like this. But the energy is so pure and timeless. Once I reveal that side of me completely, that's when I've become the most vulnerable. If I get burned, it's this part of me which recoils and crawls into a cave for a while. It's NOT like so much my "ego" getting tarnished. When there are disagreements it's my desire to help which gets me through it, albeit, usually quite selflessly with little if any gratitude from the other player. IP: Logged |
sthenri
unregistered
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posted April 30, 2004 08:42 AM
To be truthfull, no, I have never played coy, bad me! With Venus in Aries and Mars in Sag in the 1st house, and a Scorpio Ascendant and Taurus Sun it's pretty hard to act anything. People figure out what I mean fast.So it's very hard to act coy unless I'm sick or just not interested in anyway. When an attractive man hugs me and sighs in my ear and tells me he craves me..that I tempt him so much...well it's just HARD okay??
Classic Tease I know, What a Gemini! I will have to forgive, it's not his fault, it's just his impulsive nature. I know Virgo Artist what you are saying about sensations, earth signs must have invented massage, massage oil and hot tubs. I have liked the fantasy of being overpowered but I can't wait that long. I do see that you like it be vice versa though, and that's your Aries coming through. Nothing wrong with being inspired, Natasha
Taurus IP: Logged | |
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