posted October 10, 2005 10:25 AM              

quote:

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im sure that could be used as an excuse but it doesnt make a good one in my opinion, because Pakistan didn't support the war on Iraq either and still sent money, and honestly speaking people in the rest of the world dont really trust the American government with money the way Americans do. Besides, Pakistan is supposed to be America's ally, Musharraf, our president, literally sold out the entire nation just to build an alliance with America so that the government wouldnt start an attack on Pakistan as well. One would think that after such a foreign 'alliance', there would at least be a little bit more appreciation on the US side. Pakistani government is catching people every week, guilty or innocent only god knows, and persecuting them like crazy, its a friggin Salem witch trial going on, to save the natino from attacks and frantically prove that we are also doing our job on countering terrorism

---

a simple word to describe all this "POLITICS" .

posted October 10, 2005 10:54 AM              

Aside from all the world politics that have always been present since Time began....most humans reach out to help each other in times of tragedy.

Wish we could all make things easier...for everyone regardless of politics.
Just try to give YOUR Best....Always.

posted October 10, 2005 11:53 AM              

So what price human life ?

We are just ants in the scheme of things, who still fool ourselves praying to a God for help.

posted October 10, 2005 12:52 PM            

RAWALPINDI, Pakistan - Eight American helicopters that will carry supplies and rescue teams to remote areas hit by a weekend earthquake landed here Monday as the United States pledged $50 million for relief in a gesture that officials hope will show sometimes skeptical Pakistanis that Washington is a true ally.

Two days after the disaster, rescue teams and supplies have arrived from at least 10 countries with everything from jerry cans and tarpaulins to Blackhawk choppers for heavy lifting and high-tech cameras for finding buried survivors.

Pakistani authorities, usually sticklers for immigration formalities, issued seven-day visas on entry for relief workers, who flew into military and civilian airstrips around Rawalpindi, near the capital of Islamabad, before heading to devastated northern regions.

Death toll estimates ranged from 20,000 to above 30,000, with more than 2.5 million homeless, in what officials are describing as the worst disaster to face this Islamic nation since it was founded 58 years ago.

Despite the efforts, many victims remain beyond help's reach in extremely remote mountain villages, or in areas that can't seek assistance because communications are out.

"The magnitude of this disaster is utterly overwhelming," Ambassador Ryan Crocker said as he received a U.S. transport plane full of blankets, plastic sheets and jerry cans. "We have under way the beginning of a very major relief effort."

In the past two days, aid missions have arrived from Britain, South Korea, Turkey, Spain, Iran, Russia, the Netherlands, the United Arab Emirates, Japan and Germany. Rescue experts face a closing window of opportunity to locate survivors.

On Monday, Malaysia donated $1 million, Italy said it was sending a field hospital and Singapore a search-and-rescue team. Indonesia and France planned to fly in medics, and Australia increased its aid pledge tenfold to $4.2 million.

Eight U.S. military helicopters _ five Chinooks and three Blackhawks _ touched down with a whoosh of dust from coalition bases from neighboring Afghanistan, diverted from action in the war on terror. The choppers will help ferry supplies and rescue teams to areas inaccessible by road because of landslides.

"There is a great need here with the damage and the destruction that has been done by this earthquake, and it's very important for the U.S. government and the U.S. military in Afghanistan to provide assistance to them," said U.S. military spokesman Col. James Yonts.

Coalition commander Lt. Gen. Karl Eikenberry also held talks with Pakistan military officials Monday to see what further assistance they might need.

Although Pakistan has for the past four years allowed the use of its bases for logistical support of the U.S. military operations against Taliban and al-Qaida rebels in Afghanistan, it's unusual for American aircraft to fly in Pakistan.

The government, faced with strong domestic opposition to the U.S.-led war on terrorism, does not allow U.S. forces to operate on its soil.

Pakistani political analyst Rusul Bakhsh Rais said that despite the sensitivities, the sight of American helicopters helping with the relief effort and flying quake victims would probably have a more lasting, positive impact on Pakistanis than contributions of money and aid.

The U.S. ambassador said America's swift response and grant of $50 million in emergency aid _ by far the largest single contribution to the international aid effort so far _ reflected its "long-term strategic relationship" with Pakistan.

"That means when crisis hits an ally, we step forward to help," Crocker said.

But Rais, a professor at the Lahore University of Management Sciences, said the United States had spoiled the impact by initially offering just $100,000 in aid, which was mocked by some Pakistanis as inadequate.

"The initial announcement was a joke," said Rais. "Every move of the United States is judged here on political grounds. It was a rare opportunity for the United States to show that it's a true friend of Pakistan."

Many Pakistanis harbor deep resentment over the invasion of Afghanistan, the Iraq war and scandals over alleged abuse of Islam's holy book, the Quran, at the U.S. detention center for terror suspects at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Crocker hinted that the American aid could help improve perceptions of the United States in this Islamic nation of 150 million.

"Certainly that was true with the tsunami relief effort," Crocker said, referring to the warm reception given to the U.S. military by victims of the deadly waves that ravaged Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation, in December.

In Kabul, a U.S. military spokeswoman, put it more bluntly.

"The terrorists make us out as the infidels, but this is not true and we hope this mission will show that," Sgt. Marina Evans told The Associated Press.

posted October 10, 2005 03:27 PM              

Hopefully it will pass soon...what is most disturbing to me are the accounts on how many people are suffering concussios becoz their brains are being shaked in their heads so hard, until this morning they were still having aftershocks of really big magnitudes, so lets see i think they will die down soon hopefully.

I am grateful to see the help coming from all sides, and it does help, but i wonder if they will survive after being under those structures and buried alive for so long. if they do im assuming there will be several problems overwhelming the hospitals, i know several people had to have their various limbs amputated to survive.

Kinda makes you wonder whats up with nature, and the scope of these disasters in the modern world within such a short period of time...

yes cancerrg, politics...

posted October 13, 2005 05:42 PM              

yes aqua one of my best friends is from Muzaffarabad (my family is from farther up north--Skardu, hit not so hard), but muzaffarabad is practically 80% wiped out, and a village off of it, Balakot, is 100% wiped out, there are no signs of life there at all, my friend says everytime he watches the news he sees someone he knows dead or injured, coz he was born and raised in Muzaffarabad and knew every street, every house, every family there! its really tragic...seeing everyone u know but havent seen in years, on tv, suffering, dying, injured!

my mum (a doctor) is flying over there sunday to help with the relief efforts, it is expected to be freaking freezing and the doctors there are falling over with sleep from exhaustion, so this new batch will provide them some rest! i am proud of her i wish i could be part of the relief effort but the middle of the school semester always holds me back.

posted October 14, 2005 08:48 AM              

LOL... IAmThat...
I scare myself with my "fat finger" too sometimes. Isn't it amazing what "nothing" can do ?

Proxieme....
Strange tack ? The self-important human is insignificant in the "eyes" of Mother nature or the Cosmic mind.
And we all know that Death is the most effective and effective cure of any sickness.
And Mankind is certainly sick.

posted October 16, 2005 01:37 PM              

.. I've been watching the tele. coverage .. the terrain sure looks tough .. seeing the arrival of 'chinook' helicopters gives hope .. .. as does some of the interaction between india and pakistan over this calamity .. maybe some good will come out of the chaos .. .. ..

posted October 16, 2005 02:10 PM              

Indian kashmir got hit too but the govt took the easy route, announced cash relief to survivors!

I read a very disturbing thing in a Hermetic book sometime back that mentioned how Nations that dont change are forced into change by calamities. Lets hope this is the last calamity for Pak and that positive change occurs there.

Actually, Pakistan's horoscope should be made with Aug 15, 1947 as birthdate and some difficult transits should be studied.

posted October 16, 2005 05:26 PM              

iqhunk, im not from pakistan, i am from *kashmir*; and the valley i come from is considered to be under the control of pakistan.... sorry to act anal, im not anti pakistan, on the contrary i have many paki friends and went to school in the country, but the government like you said has serious issues and i could not want to dissociate myself from them more. kashmiris are kashmiris; regardless of what happens of our battle, I know one thing--we are a very different kind of people, because we have had to survive all sorts of torture. We may carry on in the world as if we are the same as everyone else, but inside, we know we have to keep in mind our bros and sis dying back home...there is a distinct survival tactic, competitiveness, brotherhood, yet i come from the more mellow Skardu.

Love
SG

posted October 16, 2005 08:35 PM              

.. i've got some flute, sitar 'n tablas drifting out of the speakers at mo. ..
.. don't know where it's from .. but .. an aries friend travelled to kashmir and brought back some amazing photos .. lakes with giant lillies 'n houseboats .. mountains in the background .. so when this tape get played i see that pic in my mind .. very 'haunting' flute .. ..
.. .. I've been trying to get my head around the india/pakistan thing over kashmir .. had a bit of a talk to a pakistani friend .. think i understand it a bit more now .. .. i guess for me personaly it has been a bit of an eye opener .. seeing on tele, the mountain villages and towns where a lot of ppl around here originate from .. helps to understand their culture a mite better .. .. i'm gonna have to get a photo of some of the local houses as .. not too long ago some enterprising person started making wrought iron gates .. asian style .. i.e motifs and colors .. .. and the house around here are mainly a grey-brown stone ( well 'gold brown' when new .. but victorian grime 'n soot stiks around ) .. .. so the gates are a bit of a contrast .. i think this town be Sag ruled .. so in a weird way the multiculture nature of it .. fits .. ..
.. can't help but think there is some military commander looking over at the pakistani side 'n thinking .. 'that lot look to be a bit disorganized .. if this is how they handle an earthquake .. how would they handle a war?' .. ... .. .. was some good news today .. some little schoolchildren were pulled out alive .. i think maybe 8 of them .. not sure though

posted October 16, 2005 09:15 PM              

it is a beautiful place its called Paradise on earth in asia here are some pics of the valley i come from (its on the border of pak controlled and china controlled kashmir, and not too far from india controlled kashmir, so a very diverse place and very serene and beautiful):

http://photos.yahoo.com/everyonelovesmybrain

the third pic is the actual valley that my family comes from and it wasnt hit too bad thankfully, but it still has undergone quite a bit of destruction

hope all fares well with u HD , i was wondering, do you have a taurus stellium? how many planets are in taurus and at what house, what are the aspects? bundering about it for another bull buddy of mine

posted October 16, 2005 10:15 PM              

last time when a quake struck gujarat the relief funds, food and materials were all sold out by the politicians instead of being freely distributed among thee needy. i hope it doesnot happen this time.

i'm still to ask if my friend 'rohin's' father is safe. he was in srinagar.

where is kashmir do u belong SG?

posted October 17, 2005 02:18 AM              

u wrote:
*** i was wondering, do you have a taurus stellium? how many planets are in taurus and at what house, what are the aspects?***

.. you was .. was you ? .. ..
.. chart be at this link .. http://www.happydragon.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/hd.chrt.jpg

btw .. sometime before katrina came along .. you asked a question of me .. i posted a couple of early editions .. .. current edition be lurking in the profile thang .. ..
not looked at your kashmiri pics yet ( be late .. not had my beauty sleep )
btw .. when this thread was originaly posted .. i went looking on the web for a pic of the word 'peace' .. in both the arabic script ( i.e. koran script ) and hindu type script ( excuse ignorance .. but not sure what the latter be called ) .. wanted to do a pic incorporating both .. only found the japanese caligraphy for it .. was just curious if youv'e ever come accross such pics ..

trivial note .. off topic ..
on news this eve .. .. new railway link in tibet .. 1200 mile trak .. evidently highest in world ..

anyhowzzzzzz...

posted October 17, 2005 10:52 AM              

THINK , WHO U ARE REFERING TO ?

quote:

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my mum (a doctor) is flying over there sunday to help with the relief efforts, it is expected to be freaking freezing and the doctors there are falling over with sleep from exhaustion, so this new batch will provide them some rest! i am proud of her

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WE TOO!!

quote:

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I must say, the relief effort really sucked from the Indian side. This was a time to suspend all hostilities and rush for help but our bureacrats blew it.

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A BIT WRONG INFO.and a bit wrong way to interpret it .

posted October 17, 2005 11:23 AM              

if PANDIT NEHRU hadn't made the biggest blunder of his life , there would'nt have been any battle . sorry , if this hurts but your battle began a lot after .

posted October 17, 2005 09:19 PM              

now like i said i dont support pak government so dont think i am favoring any governemnt. this is what i rationally think, and i could not despite the paki govt more for its mismanagement of its own citizens and the appalling conditions of the ppl there, but you also have to see that indian govt is so cruel with muslims and i would not want to be like a gujrati muslim, trampled on every year, i know u will say it is both ways and there are muslim terrorists, but the truth is that we are not allowed to have an identity there, all i ask is that we not be treated like animals, apparently that is asking too much of BOTH paki and indian govts.

if no one can treat us like human citizens, as opposed to just people sitting on a valuable piece of land, then we'd rather fight till we die, then submit under a cruel and insensitive government.

posted October 18, 2005 11:46 AM              

quote:

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i love (sarcasm) the way that indians look at everyone as just a big fat tumor that grew out of them.

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I am ok with your criticism . reassuringly ok ! but it was just a part of us not a tumor . we didn't propose drawing new boundaries .
btw can u or i change the history ?
can u or i deny that we both come from the same indus valley civilisation ?

you know , your criticism is so typical.
let me ask , just a simple question , can u wipe off your lineage ?
its not we who dont want accept the fact that we come from oldest civilisation but others, bcoz its largely gets associated with hinduism .
isn't that disrespecting a religion .
that too by a so called progressive person(sarcasm) i love that .

i have been thinking over this , how can the people who have been living togetther for almost twelve centuries ( taking md. bin qasim to be the first invader in 712 ad)can be become enemies in just a decade (late 1930's)that they need new boundaries to survive . do u have an answer to it ?

and do u really think reading un maps would solve the problem ?
do u think any of the three countries now involved would ever permit a free kashmir ?
try something logical .

for the answer , just a check a bit of new declassified documents from the british archives about' why pak got created !

hyderabad/kashmir question . there was a difference . hyderbad ruler started killing his own people . heard of anything about that reagrding kashmir ruler 'raja hari singh'?

gujrat genocide - i am ashamed of it and so are a majority of indians . thats why vajpayee govt. got defeated . i have been traditionally a supporter of his party . its the first time that i ( and i know a lot others) who voted against it . (btw, both vajpayee and jinnah were caps and nehru and advani - second in command of the situation, were scorps)
but at the same time , just for a bit of information for u .
the richest indian
top three movie stars -loved by millions
the president(its not the first time )
the top athlete(that too woman) -loved and respected

are all muslims , if thats your definition of not being permitted to have an identity .
shall i give the examples of the other minorities.

thats the strength of indianness .

you are very much right about gujrat . but name me a single country where these things haven't happened .there are times when govts. do things that simple citizens can't control directly .
but then again,we have a better record than even the majorly muslim country or most of the other countries whether democracies or not . just name me a single country .
why go very far , no one would know how pak treated its own eastern part ( bangladesh) better than u .

quote:

---

if no one can treat us like human citizens, as opposed to just people sitting on a valuable piece of land, then we'd rather fight till we die, then submit under a cruel and insensitive government.

---

btw, did u know that sikkim (one of the state in north east india) has same provision like kashmir . it had a turbulent start , much furious than what kashmir is today .it has never lost its identity even though its an indian state .
and did u know , we had terrorism even in the hindu heartland of tamilnadu over a trivial reason of declaring hindi as national language . its a hindu state .

we could have solved the kashmir problem , if it was a problem of our people (india controlled) .
why wasn't there a terrorist in the last forty years but only in the 90's when theforces in the afgahinstan got free after soviet left .
who would know the no. of hired terrorist in kashmir valley today better than u .
my point , we can satisfy the problems of our people but how do we do that too people who are professional killers .

do u know , just after the day of the earthquake , these hired terrorist killed nine hindus in the same area . did u get to hear this . nahi na !!! kyunki sayad jarurat hi nahi thi .

and the gal that i talked of in other posts , is from the same state(sikkim) . she being a christian and i , a hindu. thats the envoirnment that my country and my society provides . if that was not the case , we would have hundred of kashmirs . we have the
second biggest muslim population .

and no , i wouldn't want the 'tumor' back .
we are very much happy with happy lot of muslims that are so proud to be inadians.

=== over a billion people , more than 140 million muslims and not a single al-qaeda operative ====

i am proud of our muslims and our country
thats the strength of indinness .
go and compare this record of a 'country who can't respect its people but just treat them as someone sitting on a valuable piece of land' with any other country in this world.

u dont actually make me angry or something
because u know what u have been told or teached . may be,u never got to see the other side of the coin .
i have tried to be honest , hope u see things in a new light. hope it helps .

posted October 18, 2005 05:04 PM              

and maybe you dont know how high the indian troop to kashmiri woman rape rate is but i would know coz i know several women raped by indian troops and my mum lived in perpetual fear of it her life which is why she decided to bus me to school everyday in pak which took 2 hours going and coming back.

yes i am from the indus valley and im not ashamed im proud of it, why would i be ashamed ? you as always ASSUME my emotions, and you're always WRONG becoz u inherently misunderstand my nature. and btw i didnt try to wipe off my lineage, what irrelevant points. i am not dissociatng from hinduism, who cares , we are all descendants of the first humans to walk earth this hindus muslims are all manmade divisions and i dont believe in it. but i do believe you should respect it if someone decides to define themselves that way. i dont disrespect hinduism i respect it and have several indian friends, in fact some of the smartest ppl ive met have been indians. what i do thank god for however is that he let me be exposed to my religion, and the truth is that he didnt make me a certain way, i CHOOSE to follow my spiritual path. everyone chooses this is not a force fed deal. my brother chose to renounce it and he doesnt consider himself muslim so fine, its his choice. does this seem like disrespect to you???

how people can become enemies is simple, emotions run high, territory is higher priority than human life, justice is compromised for peace. and if you think im being disrespectful let me remind you that the moghuls who were mainly muslim ruled india for a large chunk of time my friend and they were not intolerant. what makes u think that kashmiri muslims or paki muslims are intolerant??

btw i SAID I DONT SUPPORT PAK GOVT and i think its a joke anyway so why are u telling me to see brit papers, i already AGREE on that point

so far as indias record obviously so. i think pak govt has been 100% corrupt and india is less than 50% but still pretty corrupt. and i dont blame either government but like i said, when you grow up in perpetual fear of being raped by indian soldiers, then you dont exactly respect the government that knows about that and lets it go on.

i dont know about sikkim but will read up on it and get back to you

yeah i know the major prob started with the afghanis bringing ammunition to islamabad and then to kashmir and inciting attacks and many of them were supported by pak government which is why i think they are a bunch of dopeheads and need to learn about management.

i didnt ever say that Kashmir shud be indepednent once again u are ASSUMING, and WRONGLY. READ READ READ my first paragraph

about the hindus dying in the area, i didnt hear it, but u know what, do you really want to get into a war of numbers? do you want to compare the numbers of kashmiris killed? no u dont becoz u know how the numbers will tilt right

not a single al qaeda operative how can u be sure of that they are operating everywhere even in the USA and all european countries u wont know till some ugly truth reveals itself

so far as indian pride, to each his own, if u are proud then its ur choice and i respect this, i dont love the indian government, u love it, its ur choice and its mine , and even if i hate its guts u should be open minded enough to accept that. where i am coming from my perspective makes sense and i can see why urs would but u are unwilling to admit there is more than one right answer.

and so far as your comments, i wont reply to you in the future. because youve constnatly degraded me in your post:

quote:

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because u know what u have been told or teached

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...no i actually wrote many times that ive moved on quite a bit from my heritage and even like to try to convince my mum otherwise

quote:

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nahi na !!! kyunki sayad jarurat hi nahi thi .

---

i was making a point about the importance of human life, including both kashmiris AND indians. inever said that only kashmiris lives are valuable what made u think that!

quote:

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your deabating skills fail u here .

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well thats ur perspective, i believe i made my point

quote:

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isn't that disrespecting a religion .
that too by a so called progressive person(sarcasm) i love that .

---

you are accusing me of being a b!tch when i never said anything about you but only about indian mentality. its good to know now that in the back of your mind always you are laughing at the fact that i call myself progressive and waiting for a chance to disprove it

i didnt expect that kind of response and those kinds of words from u anyhow its true that LL isnt all love and rainbows. u always treated me like a child...i shud have never tried to make a friend of u!