posted May 21, 2007 08:12 PM              

I'd be happy to be proved wrong, but while I think your viewpoint is refreshing I also think it's in the minority.

Also...

"This is precisely why, I would tend to see a guy who is a bad boy and is constantly after multiple sexual experiences, as someone who doesn't have a well defined ego. Why else would he bother? If he was genuinely confident and happy with who he is, he wouldn't need to constantly prove himself *to* himself.. It's sad"

I think this is very stereo-typical in itself. I know many "bad boys" that are happy, confident in themselves and having the time of their lives lol. They'd have a little smirk on their faces at what you said.

I'm widening my personal defintion of "bad boy" with experience anyway as I feel it can certainly be a part of "decent" men. Somestimes sex is just sex and men and women are what they are.

Challenge is the key to passion and that by defintion means someone either is or appears to be out of reach, even if only enought to keep the interest up. That's just human nature.

Cranky, I'm going to reply to your e-mail but want to make sure I don't over-step the bounds or fall short of helping out.

posted May 21, 2007 08:13 PM            

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The modern empowered woman usually craves such a guy since she sees him as a worthy partner who will not surcum to becomming the total "yes dear" sort of man but would actually will stand up for his beliefs and would help you learn something new that you didn't know about yourself.

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posted May 21, 2007 08:19 PM              

That doesn't mean they are to blame for anything either, many attributes and open-mindedness is a gift from women to men.

But,now they crave that masulinity that is so scarce. Obviously not the mysoginistic parts, but many would still take even those over the passive men that are so prevalent in todays society.

Strong and confident men are a rarity, so you're left with the wimps and the bad boys. I think it's an uncomfortable truth that most women would never admit, and I admire Cranky's honesty.

Good for any woman who holds out for a rare one I say.

posted May 21, 2007 08:23 PM            

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But when it comes to the most primal of desires, women instinctually want to submit. Most of them anyway...

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posted May 21, 2007 08:25 PM              

Just a man to be a man. Not a boorish idiot who thinks he's Gods gift or women are playthings.

Not many about though these days, so bad boys are the lesser of two evils, thats my point.

posted May 21, 2007 08:30 PM            

Exactly the reason why I don't agree with die hard feminists or chavinists. Again, they are too busy highlighting the advantages of viginas and penisis, they end up forgetting as to what the world actually wants .

*Sigh..* I tell ya, its always the biggest challenge being the middle man Lol!

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That wasn't quite what I meant. Primal desires...as in...the bedroom. Outside, yes, you want an equal. But behind closed doors, under the sheets...I'm sorry, but most girls want to feel like a tamed beast. They want to surrender, but it is fun to put up a fight sometimes, and a more dominant partner will respond to that accordingly.

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posted May 21, 2007 08:32 PM              

...so I've been told....

posted May 21, 2007 08:36 PM            

To each his own though right?

posted May 21, 2007 10:25 PM            

You read my mind CC!!!! That's exactly the way it is. I don't lump the sexual compulsives into the same category as the "bad boy" though. I remember hearing a talk show with these psychologists talking about the phenomenon of women who liked Tony Soprano. Tony isn't sexually compulsive but I think most people would say he's a "bad boy". He is also very protective...remember when he was watching over Dr. Melfi? I remember growing up watching John Wayne movies. I know I'm dating myself here. Remember how he always slapped her before he kissed her? I could never understand why that was such a charge. LOL.
And you're absolutely right about the domination fantasies...women consistently rank "rape" as their #1 fantasy. Of course nobody wants to be raped. Try reconciling that. And yet there is something life affirming about it. (When I say "rape" I'm not talking about the REAL thing or anything sadistic or by a stranger) I think along the lines of Scarlett and Rhett.

Anyway, I guess we aren't as removed from the jungle as we think we are. When you think about it, if people had relied on violins playing and all these niceties through history, humanity would not have survived. The urge to procreate is the strongest of all instincts after all and thousands of years of evolution and DNA don't change in 30 years. As a Leo with a lot of fire, I find it very frustrating today. Even the movie stars look like 12 year old boys. I think the average guy could learn a lot about women from the "bad boys" though. Sigh...all that knowledge wasted on the kind who will never use it for anything positive.

posted May 21, 2007 10:25 PM              

I think so many people don't know what confidence and strength are. They confuse them for other things. Such as vanity and outspokenness being a quality of someone who's confident in themselves.
Acting confident doesn't reveal confidence,
just as modesty doesn't reveal meekness.
People are so prone to take whatever they see projected, without bothering to use their finer senses to intuit what's real, beyond the surface, on deeper levels.

A guy can be entirely modest, as a considerate grace, and also be entirely confident, challenging, strongly individual and passionate.
Perhaps he's not projecting because he is. He's secure, and he feels there's no need to prove anything to anyone. This is strength. A more appealing strength, imo.

I'm at a point where I feel women who chase bad-boys get what they ask for. It amazes me they expected differently
And men who chase game-playing shrews do too.
Where you place your attention...what you value and praise, is what you receive.
Although, that's not saying I wouldn't also be compassionate, having awakened through hard experience myself.

It's insane--- this world is overrun with people who don't know who they are, or what they want, let alone who is really who.

I'm holding out for a modest, rebelliously individualistic, honest Soul.

posted May 21, 2007 11:15 PM              

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The fact is, most men nowadays are downright SCARED to act this way. They are AFRAID to take the lead.

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I don't know if I believe in those figures...where are these men?
I've had more experience fending off aggressive/controlling type of men, who presume way too much of which they haven't even been considered.
This can't just be me.

posted May 21, 2007 11:21 PM            

So...when all is said and done, he is a guy who could be categorized as a "bad boy," or he could be categorized as having severe insecurity that is masked by sexual bravado. His sexual conquests don't actually reflect at all on whether or not he has a dominant nature. In fact, he seems to be constantly searching for an equal to match his own dominant type of personality. The problem he found was that most women he dated started off confident and self assured, but once they had been with him for a while they became insecure and needy. Most refused to stand up to him. I never backed down with him (except in the bedroom ). I'm proud of that, and I never knew that I had so much influence and power over him. This conversation was good for me, and in many ways restored a lot of my confidence.

posted May 22, 2007 04:24 AM              

Absolutely. I think that's the foundation of pretty much every problem around the globe at the moment.

Cultures have merged, gender roles are constantly shifting and changing, and there are no real shining examples of manhood or womanhood.

It leaves everyone without a compass to gauge their position by, and no clear path to follow.

The it becomes so easy to be manipulated into defining yourself by a controlling media, a zealous religion, fantasy figures in the limelight who in turn have been maniplulated themselves, and others influences that are augmented by such a personal void in many.

A man who can define himself (or woman) independently of all of that today, requires more strength of character to do so than ever before I believe.

I think I might have opened the point up too wide here though.

posted May 22, 2007 07:27 AM            

I actually agree with everything you've said since that post lol You made a great point in that first post to me - "bad boy" can mean different things to different people. What you described - "fiery/confident".. falls under - warm hearted/genuine/honest - in my book, not under 'bad boy' lol I don't want a "yes dear” man.. I want someone I feel connected to mentally and emotionally.. Because of my Venus/Mars trine I dislike power struggles in relationships and things come pretty easily to me in that way.. I don't feel a loss of power, so I'm not looking for power nor do I want someone to have power over me.. The guy I'm dating now is so awesome but that's because we have a great mental connection and we have so much fun together.. There's never been a discussion about 'who has more power'. I don't think either of us cares.. but he has the Venus/Mars sextile – we don’t play games with each other.

Hi Swerve, I think it's just a matter of each and every person having different issues and hang ups. I'm much more likely to notice the things in the world that have affected me and played a part in my life, whereas you would be more likely to notice things that have affected you. I completely understand that.

We have very different perspectives on this, partially because I'm not very interested in something intense or passionate. It's on the bottom of my priority list. Actually I don't think it's on the list. Maybe that sounds cold hearted - they do say that about Cap moons. I tend to see relationships as a holiday from my life so I’d like to get a lot of laughter and good times.. I am getting that right now – nice Saggi boy, lots of fun

- Passion - Love/Hate - the bad boy/the bit*chy girl - It's all too complicated for me. I honest to God just don't have the time, even if I wanted something like that.. I don't know when I'd *fit it in* lol I like simple - traditional - fun.. the happier, optimistic, loving and just plain funny a guy is.. the better the chances he'll get me in a heart beat. Because I need that in my life.. We all need different things..

I'd like a deep relationship.. but I like depth that grows over time - slowly - so I guess that's not very passionate once again. Depth means stability to me.. I can't get close enough to delve deep if things aren't perfectly stable.. For a Scorpio mooner, depth might mean instability.. maybe that's why I feel, the things you say sometimes are the opposite of what makes my heart tick..

Hi Lialei,

I like the things you said! Mainly this part:

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A guy can be entirely modest, as a considerate grace, and also be entirely confident

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Hey CranckyCap,

posted May 22, 2007 08:29 AM            

Jan - No, no, NO! LOL...I'm in no way, shape, or form looking to start a new relationship with this cad! He was a huge part of my adult life, and he's a big part of who I am today, so because of that he'll always be special to me. But...no way. I think that's why I saw the conversation as liberating, and there's no better way for me to describe it. I could finally see how far I've come and how much I've grown and changed as a person. I'm just not that girl anymore. I no longer see him through rose colored glasses. I see him as flawed, and even sad in some ways. He is a person that simply does not or cannot understand the beauty, transformation, and growth that comes from showing vulnerability and giving yourself selflessly to another human being. No, I'm searching for something very different at this point in my journey. It feels good to know that...kind of like finally having the hooks removed from your heart. Still, I hope for his sake, not mine, that he figures it out and evolves...which is why I started this thread. I wonder if that's possible for someone like him.

posted May 22, 2007 09:30 AM            

I really never understood why women would chase after "badboys" and expect them to be good to them once they were in the relationship. (that's usually what happens in my obervation) I've never heard of the reverse with guys chasing "badgirls" but if that's true, then the same goes for them. Its like the old "Be careful what you wish for" thing.

And don't even get me started with the overagressive-controlling-dominant guy. Why would women find that sexy? Maybe I'm personally turned off because I have one for a dad and family life was never pretty. But I still feel if you really need something like that in your life, something is a miss.

That's why I agree with Neon right here...

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I don't want to "Submit" to anyone unless the roles change and he is the one submitting also, I want an equal in soul, spirit, body, etc. Then again, I have a 7th house sun.

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And once again, I'm also a 7th house sun...LOL. Either it has to be equal or I want some role-reversal; no ifs, ands, or buts.

And I also would like to know why people confuse vanity and arrogance with confidence. IMO, those who display the former are probably the least confident of them all. And this is because people who were really confident in themselves wouldn't have to project that image to everyone else in the extreme....which is what arrogant people do. And why is that attractive to people? Maybe I'm missing something here?