posted June 27, 2008 01:20 AM         

jwhop, which astrological chart are you using? I thought you didn't believe the one posted at the beginning of this thread is correct. Are you making predictions based on a chart you claim you don't believe is correct? I thought you were going to be using some other chart that you think is more accurate. For instance, there are astrologers who are making predictions based on the US chart, even though they don't have the candidates' ascendants.

posted June 27, 2008 02:50 AM         

Lalalinda provided the clue as to a Neptune transit and I looked it up. At the time of the election Obama will be undergoing a Sun conjunct Neptune transit, if his birth information is correct. My reading is that regardless whether Obama is experiencing self deception...meaning he thinks he's going to be permitted to skate on all the controversy concerning his associations with the most radical elements in the United States...or whether his supporters are simply in a Neptunium fog, it's not going to last. Hard questions are going to be asked which Obama will be forced to answer. In other words, Obama is going to run headlong into reality.

"Look for Leo in your natal chart, as the Sun rules Leo, and this is an area of life that will be directly affected by the transit (in addition to the house where the transit actually takes place)."

I'm sorry I didn't see your post which didn't get much response. Would you be kind enough to re-post it here?

posted June 28, 2008 03:34 PM         

SUMMARY: Since we published Obama's birth certificate, questions about its authenticity have been frequent and fierce. After reviewing the evidence, we're confident in our rulings.

It started as a whisper, a trickle of nagging doubt.

“As a concerned citizen, I’m wondering if there isn’t something fishy going on with the Obama certificate.”

“I have serious doubts about the purported 'birth certificate’ you were sent.”

“Something doesn’t smell right.”

Soon, e-mails and blog posts were flying. As the pace quickened, the tone sharpened.

“You should be apologizing ... for your misinformation regarding BO bogus birth certificate, that you claimed was genuine!”

At full throttle, the accusations are explosive and unrelenting, the writers emboldened by the anonymity and reach of the Internet.

And you can’t help but ask: How do you prove something to people who come to the facts believing, out of fear or hatred or maybe just partisanship, that they’re being tricked?

• • •
Sen. Barack Obama’s birth certificate is a document PolitiFact.com had sought for months. Countless chain e-mails, seeking to paint him as a secret Muslim, speculated that his full name included Muhammed (or Mohammed). Some said he is not an American citizen.

As a fact-checking news Web site, we went to extensive lengths to sort out the truth. We got a copy of his 1992 marriage certificate from the Cook County (Ill.) Bureau of Vital Statistics. His driver’s license record from the Illinois Secretary of State’s office. His registration and disciplinary record with the Attorney Registration & Disciplinary Commission of the Supreme Court of Illinois. Not to mention all of his property records.

Not one of these documents shows a Muhammed (or Mohammed) in Obama's name. They all read "Barack H. Obama" or "Barack Hussein Obama."

The ultimate document we sought was Obama’s birth certificate. Unlike the other documents, Hawaii birth certificates aren’t public record. Only family members can request copies, so when the campaign declined to give us one, we were stalled.

On June 13, 2008, Obama’s campaign finally released a copy, while launching a fact-check Web site of its own, Fightthesmears.com. The site is a direct response to allegations about Obama that won’t go away: He’s Muslim. He took the oath of office on a Koran. He refuses to say the pledge of allegiance. PolitiFact has researched all of these accusations and none of them are true.

When the birth certificate arrived from the Obama campaign it confirmed his name as the other documents already showed it. Still, we took an extra step: We e-mailed it to the Hawaii Department of Health, which maintains such records, to ask if it was real.

“It’s a valid Hawaii state birth certificate,” spokesman Janice Okubo told us.

Then the firestorm started.

• Where is the embossed seal and the registrar’s signature?

• Comparing it to other Hawaii birth certificates, the color shade is different.

• Isn’t the date stamp bleeding through the back of the document “June 2007?” (Odd since it was supposedly released in June 2008.)

• There’s no crease from being folded and mailed.

• It’s clearly Photoshopped and a wholesale fraud.

• • •
At PolitiFact.com, we’re all about original sources. We don’t take anyone at their word or take the reporting of other media organizations as proof. We go to the heart of the story, the source of the truth — original, corroborating documents.

When the official documents were questioned, we went looking for more answers. We circled back to the Department of Health, had a newsroom colleague bring in her own Hawaii birth certificate to see if it looks the same (it’s identical). But every answer triggered more questions.

And soon enough, after going to every length possible to confirm the birth certificate’s authenticity, you start asking, what is reasonable here?

Because if this document is forged, then they all are.

If this document is forged, a U.S. senator and his presidential campaign have perpetrated a vast, long-term fraud. They have done it with conspiring officials at the Hawaii Department of Health, the Cook County (Ill.) Bureau of Vital Statistics, the Illinois Secretary of State’s office, the Attorney Registration & Disciplinary Commission of the Supreme Court of Illinois and many other government agencies.

Sounds like a Vince Flynn novel.

• • •
Peter Goelz knows a little something about conspiracy theorists.

He was managing director of the National Transportation Safety Board in 1996 when TWA Flight 800 crashed off Long Island, killing 230 people. While the NTSB’s investigation found no evidence of sabotage or terrorism, the Internet was stocked with insistent accusations.

“We were right at the beginning of this Internet lunacy,” Goelz said in an interview with PolitiFact. “And there were a variety of crackpot Web sites and Web commentators that generated all sorts of rumors. The principle one was that TWA in fact was shot down by an errant Navy missile in ... a live-fire exercise off the Hamptons.”

Nine miles off Long Island, in the middle of summer. And then a full-scale coverup by the Navy and all the sailors involved.

“I am sure that we spent another $10-million, perhaps $20-million, out of a $50-million investigation, to just knock down and put to bed these kinds of rumors, these insidious rumors,” Goelz said. “We felt like we had to answer every question because it was such a public and dreadful and confounding event.”

Goelz, who is now a communications consultant in Washington, D.C., says the Internet has given a platform to anyone to say anything. And a way to find others who want to hear it.

“Online, they can be almost anything,” he said. “They can be the crusading investigators that they always wanted to be.”

• • •
The Hawaii Department of Health receives about a dozen e-mail inquiries a day about Obama’s birth certificate, spokesman Okubo said.

“I guess the big issue that’s being raised is the lack of an embossed seal and a signature,” Okubo said, pointing out that in Hawaii, both those things are on the back of the document. “Because they scanned the front … you wouldn’t see those things.”

Okubo says she got a copy of her own birth certificate last year and it is identical to the Obama one we received.

And about the copy we e-mailed her for verification? “When we looked at that image you guys sent us, our registrar, he thought he could see pieces of the embossed image through it.”

Still, she acknowledges: “I don’t know that it’s possible for us to even say beyond a doubt what the image on the site represents.”

• • •
And there’s the rub. It is possible that Obama conspired his way to the precipice of the world’s biggest job, involving a vast network of people and government agencies over decades of lies. Anything’s possible.

But step back and look at the overwhelming evidence to the contrary and your sense of what’s reasonable has to take over.

There is not one shred of evidence to disprove PolitiFact’s conclusion that the candidate’s name is Barack Hussein Obama, or to support allegations that the birth certificate he released isn’t authentic.

And that’s true no matter how many people cling to some hint of doubt and use the Internet to fuel their innate sense of distrust.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certific ate-part-ii/

posted June 28, 2008 05:35 PM         

Oh, I don't think so and neither are many going to accept that this person..Amy Hollyfield has the juice to declare..Final Chapter. In fact, Amy Hollyfield is a news editor for the St Petersburg Times and isn't the final authority for anything at all. Nevertheless, she had problems even getting a copy of O'Bomber's birth certificate from the campaign.

Why all the mystery surrounding what should be a simple matter?

And, how about at least attempting to stick to the subject here. What's being quesitioned here is O'Bomber's birth information, not his religion or his name...unless that blanked out BC number comes back to someone with a different name born on a different date than what the BC indicates.

"June 27, 2008
Obama birth certificate mystery still unsolved
Clarice Feldman

Controversy swirls among conservative bloggers over questions that have been raised over the authenticity of Barack Obama's birth certificate posted at the Daily Kos and (a different one) posted at his campaign's "Fight the Smears" website. Yesterday Jim Geraghty of NRO dismissed the claim that they were fake:

I spoke to Ms. Okubo[ Director of Communications of the State of Hawaii Department of Health]late Wednesday afternoon, and she said she had seen the version of Obama's certificate of live birth posted on the sites. While her office cannot verify the information on a form without the permission of the certificate holder (Obama), she said "the form is exactly the same" and it has "all the components of a birth certificate" record issued by the state. In other words, she sees no reason to think the version posted on Obama's web site and Daily Kos is not genuine.

The "embossed seal" in question is, she said, probably on the back of the document provided to Daily Kos, but not visible (as in another certificate posted on Israel Insider for contrast). She thinks the difference in visibility can be attributed to the pressure used when applying the seal.

jmh, a commenter at Just One Minute, who does know what she's talking about, says, not so fast, Jim:

Contra [Geraghty's] admonition, the birth certification question may, in fact, be a related issue [to Obama's missing legislative records]. On the technical side, I suspect that Ms. Okubo is not very familiar with what a scanner picks up at a 300ppi resolution (as in the image Kos posted). Embossing works by actually deforming the paper itself, so no matter how light the impression might be, if it were even barely discernable on one side of a page, it would necessarily distort the pattern (and show up in the pixels) on the reverse. Indeed, high resolution scanning often picks up more than is immediately visible to the naked eye, not less! When a simple ink stamped date does show through on the reverse, Ms. Okubo's hypothetical makes almost no sense. I was suspicious of the Obama certification, but when I saw the comparison document that Isreal Insider posted, it certainly removed any doubt in my own mind.

posted June 28, 2008 09:57 PM         

He's a bit out of touch. Don't mind him.

posted June 28, 2008 10:18 PM         

What does that really mean? Asc is whom people see, the mask, the persona. Make that...whom some people see.

"Neptunian illusion in Aquarius may manifest as charismatic leaders of blindly devoted followers. Check your body, use your basic instincts to verify if what you’re being told resonates within you. If it doesn’t descend from the head, then it’s not likely to lead to your liberation. Freedom is a key element of Aquarius, even though it’s sometimes lost amidst the utopian dogma. Never give up you right to choose and understand that an ideal world of the future is one in which individual rights are fully respected, rather than sacrificed."

Blindly devoted followers pretty well sums it up.

posted June 28, 2008 10:46 PM         

You're still not listening.

Belage, I'm not susceptible to O'Bombers Neptunium fog machine.

The time is 10:42pm, June 28, 2008. Let's see how long it would take O'Bomber to clear this all up..if he wanted it cleared up.

To: State of Hawaii
Bureau of Vital Statistics

From: Barack Hussein Obama

Subj: Release of all my birth information
Birth Certificate # xxxxx

This notification will serve as my permission and request for the State of Hawaii to release to anyone whom may inquire, all information in the possession of the State of Hawaii as to the time, date, location, attending physician and hospital of my birth.

A Unform Acknowledgment by a Notary Public of the State of IL. is attached.

Sincerely,

Barack Hussein Obama

State of Ill
)SS:
County of )

On this, the_xxx_______day of __xxx________, 2008____, before me a notary public, the undersigned officer, personally appeared__Barack Hussein Obama______________, known to me (or satisfactorily proven) to be the person whose name is subscribed to the within instrument, and acknowledged that he executed the same for the purposes therein contained.

In witness hereof, I hereunto set my hand and official seal.

Mary J. Sane, Notary Public

Whew, how taxing. It's 10:46pm. That took almost 5 minutes for me to draft...and I'm not even an attorney.

posted June 28, 2008 10:52 PM         

People said almost the same crap about Kennedy because he was Catholic. They said that if we had a Catholic president, we'd ultimately have to answer to the Pope. Yeah... right.

UGHHHHHHHHH

It. Does. Not. Matter.

And Jwhop, why do you keep calling him "O'Bomber"? I don't get it.

Frankly, even if Obama was somehow connected with terrorist groups (which I don't believe) we still have 2 other branches of government to check him. Or at least we SHOULD... the executive branch has way too much power, and Obama promises reform. That's good. He has my vote. The end.

posted June 28, 2008 11:12 PM         

It's crystal clear he adopted the Black Liberation Theology, having attended one of their churches for about 20 years...until his pastor and spiritual guru made the national news with his anti-America, racist and antisemetic rhetoric. Then, O'Bomber threw his pastor under the bus.

However it was astute of you to pick up on the O'Bomber nik. O'Bomber got that name by making a public declaration he would bomb our friend and ally Pakistan, a nation which has been extremely helpful in capturing al-Qaeda and Taliban members and turning them over to the United States...while at the same time, O'Bomber would talk to enemies who are forever screeching "Death to America".

posted June 28, 2008 11:26 PM         

Why should he clear it all up to appease people of your ilk? If he did and it turned out that he was right all along, then you would return with something along the line of

"I can think of a reason to create possible controversy over that birth certificate. That would be to later...after someone in McCain's campaign challenged it, go ballistic and give out the number proving everything was OK all along." (one of your previous posts)

It's called the merry-go-round!!

posted June 28, 2008 11:48 PM         

You mean people of the Scorp rising ilk? People who are curious when things don't add up and ask questions which reasonable people who could clear those questions up in a flash refuse to do so?

This is the most basic question to O'Bombers candidacy. Is he Constitutionally qualified to be President of the United States.

It's also a question any candidate for President should be both required to answer and happy to do so with the proper documentation.

Me thinketh thou protestest too much.

posted June 28, 2008 11:58 PM         

--You have given an interesting interpretation of Neptune in the first house. This is just one POSSIBLE facet of Neptune in the first. The scenario you posted is more likely if transiting Neptune is squaring or opposing the ascendant, imo. Perhaps as a Scorpio rising who is currently experiencing such a transit (Neptune squaring the first house), you might shed some lights on that for the rest of us...

--Are you aware that the constant harping and demonisation might actually generate sympathy for a person with Neptune transiting the first house? This is one of the other possible facets of Neptune, so you might actually be helping him...

posted June 29, 2008 12:16 AM         

Neptune Conjunct Ascendant

This transit will alter your relationships with others and change the kind of impression you make on people. The greatest single danger is that you are susceptible to deception by others, because you are in an unusually idealistic frame of mind, and you believe in the merit of proposals that you are invited to join, even when they are useless. In fact, with your excessive idealism, you are likely to get involved in many situations that you would usually avoid, Relationships, in particular, should be watched, for you are inclined to idealize people especially a lover, and be blind to their real faults. Those faults may not be all that bad, but in your present frame of mind you probably would not be able to accept the truth. And when you finally do accept it, you will be disappointed. Do not expect more of others now than you could reasonably expect at other times. People are people, although you may lose sight of that fact while Neptune is transiting your Ascendant.

posted June 29, 2008 12:45 AM         

And I'm not surprised people are clinging on to this stupid birth certificate plight. Really, stupid. I mean...stupid. And I'm going to tell you right now, the Obama camp is too smart to answer this. They beat my candidate on sheer intellect. And they're going to beat McCain with the same intellect. The media can't even turn on him now like they want to. They can't even find a bad photo of the man because he's too dang attractive. And Americans are perplexed because we are a country still divided on race, yet slowly growing more tolerant. And we've been shocked into this situation where for the first time our leader can possibly be African American. And believe me, not only are white's shocked into this situation, black's are too, Latinos, Asians, everyone! And what we don't realize is that we are not racist per se, we are fearful. Like, the first time, fearful. We don't know what to expect because it's been one way in our forever past. A white male president. We think. I mean, black people come in all colors, even white...so...

Personally, I didn't vote for Obama during the primaries because Clinton was clearly the stronger candidate, after Edwards dropped out. She's tough and fiesty and was gonna fight for everything I believed in--except one thing, she'll take corporate dollars at the drop of a hat. Obama at least stopped once he started his run for the white house, which I didn't trust as well. So, intially, I was so pulling for Edwards. Me, I'm like down to corporate capitalsim. REGULATE THEM, REGULATE THEM, REGULATE THEM. Undo everything Reagan did. And Edwards was the man who I felt was going to do it. Next Clinton because they hate her. Then Obama because he's less of the two evils. However, I loved how he mentioned the Reagan Administration in one of his speeches. He's aware of what they did. So, I'm hoping once he's President, he'll begin to check the oil companies first and media conglomerates second. McCain definitely won't. So for me, this election is truly about HOPE.

So really, this isn't about a birth certificate, this about billions of dollars per month going towards a war. And paying 4.50 per gallon of gas because, of the cost of Bush's war. So these issues. The emergency of the moment I live in, is why I find this argument stupid.

A birth certificate?????????????????

Geesh.

And the Antichrist is not Obama. Americans are so ETHNO-CENTRIC. I've studied the bible my entire life, and the Anti-Christ is not even American--and especially not African American. He's supposed to sit on the thrown of Israel. I'm not going to get into this. But read the book of Daniel. NO. STUDY the book of Daniel.

Remember when Clinton first took office? He swept George Bush too. Why? Because people were suffering from his pro-corporate capitalistic policies and actions. And that's the only reason why the "Change" slogan is working now. We're fed, once again.

I just wish there was a way Bill Clinton can run for President again, then I'd know for sure coming next January, gas is going to go back down to $1.50 a gallon.

I still don't know what's going to happen when Obama's president. But I'll know what's going to happen if McCain's president. And I literally can't afford it.

posted June 29, 2008 01:03 AM         

quote:

---

You have given an interesting interpretation of Neptune in the first house. This is just one POSSIBLE facet of Neptune in the first. The scenario you posted is more likely if transiting Neptune is squaring or opposing the ascendant, imo. Perhaps as a Scorpio rising who is currently experiencing such a transit (Neptune squaring the first house), you might shed some lights on that for the rest of us...

---

posted June 29, 2008 01:16 AM         

The press has hailed O'Bomber as the Messiah and I think he believes it. So do his Neptune induced followers. Hear no evil, speak no evil and see no evil. But, O'Bomber is not the Messiah. The fact is that once the scales are removed from their eyes..which will happen when Neptune departs the scene...then, it becomes clear they've been following a flawed politician who capitalized on their fog induced haze.

Now, you prefer the Robert Hand interpretation but I prefer the other...which is perfectly in line with what's happening in the real world. See no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil about Barack O'Bomber...on the part of his followers.

BTW, to keep this in an astrological context...so it doesn't have to be removed to GU...let me inform you that my Neptune is in clear thinking analytical Virgo and so is my Mercury. I am not susceptible to Neptunium fog.

Also Belage, it didn't escape my notice you live in an area with both feet off the left edge of the United States and Barack O'Bomber is the most far left candidate ever to run for President of the United States.

posted June 29, 2008 01:31 AM         

By the way, when do you foresee that Neptune will depart the scene? Neptune is a very slow moving planet and it will be on Obama's first house for the next 10 years at least. According to your logic, the scales will not fall from our eyes until he has completed 2 terms. lol.

So your Neptune is in Virgo. That would mean it is in its detriment... Hardly anything to brag about.

posted June 29, 2008 04:34 AM         

quote:

---

acoustic, Jan Spiller warned you and I also warned you to kick yourself out of your Neptunium Pisces South Node and get with the Capricorn North Node program.

You're still not listening.

---

Wow! There's an astrology lesson. Capricorn North Node can only imply Cancerian South Node. (You've got a Neptunian South Node!) And it was I who was championing Jan Spiller's opinion. You and Lalalinda took the opposition position against Spiller's popular book.

quote:

---

• Belage, I'm not susceptible to O'Bombers Neptunium fog machine. - Jwhop

• oh yeah, jwhop- since you are a leo, from what i remember, that means youre also probably dealing with neptune opposing your sun transit(depending on degrees)...hows that transit working out for you? -writesomething

• my Neptune is in clear thinking analytical Virgo and so is my Mercury. I am not susceptible to Neptunium fog. -Jwhop

---

Truth is Jwhop's in a [transiting] Neptune opposition to his Sun. Neptune's at 23 degrees Aquarius, and his Sun is at 28 degrees Leo. Not only is he experiencing it, but he will be for quite awhile. As it moves along it will also be in opposition to his Mercury at 0 degrees Virgo. Keep in mind it takes 14 years for Neptune to move through a sign.

Having Neptune in Virgo does not preclude one from Neptune's influence.

quote:

---

I understand, when someone has Scorpio rising, oftentimes it's hard to let go. Pluto can be fanatical in its pursuit of what it thinks is right...

---

His chart ruler is square his Ascendant to boot. Add to that some nice Sun and Mercury square Uranus, and you'll be on to some key characteristics of his personality.

quote:

---

You have given an interesting interpretation of Neptune in the first house. This is just one POSSIBLE facet of Neptune in the first.

---

Neptune Transits Conjunct Ascendant
*You are more concerned with bringing high ideals and noble purposes into your life now than you are with gaining personal recognition or personal gain. You are more tolerant of others and less pushy. In fact, you are very impressionable at times and you tend to idolize others who exhibit the kinds of qualities that you aspire to.

+After this time, you will find it much easier to express and communicate your inner dreams and ideals to others. A sense of imagination and unity previously limited to your mind becomes a reality for you and is carried through to your person. http://www.cafeastrology.com/neptunetransits.html

quote:

---

According to your logic, the scales will not fall from our eyes until he has completed 2 terms. lol.

---

If we use a 7 degree orb for conjunction to Obama's Ascendant (as posted in the first post), his last Neptune conjunct Ascendant will be over on my birthday (12/26) 2010 (using this tool: http://grupovenus.com/astroreloje.asp?day=13/03/2007%209:26:10 (Astrodienst was down at the time). It will go on to start opposing Uranus [during and] after that.

quote:

---

Mercury in Virgo. Cool!! Hopefully, it's not conjunct Neptune.

---

posted June 29, 2008 11:01 AM         

From The Times May 16, 2008

Barack Obama: the new Great Redeemer
First it was Kennedy... now the US media are prostrating themselves before the saviour
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/gerard_baker/article3941450.ece

O'Bomber campaign slogan:

"We can save the world"

Gee, imagine that. Some of us thought O'Bomber was running for President of the United States. Now we find O'Bomber's really running for World Messiah.

Yeah acoustic, you say you championed Jan Spiller...but, you utterly refuse to take the advice she gave you to adhere to your Capricorn North Node.

MOON’S NORTH NODE IN:
Capricorn – 10th House
Using the metaphor of reincarnation, astrologer Jan Spiller says that in past lifetimes you were a central figure in the home, a householder who was completely identified with family or clan to the point of not venturing out into wider society. Your tremendous dependency on family and fear of venturing out on your own took its toll on your sense of competence and self-respect. You may feel alienated from one or both parents and blame them for making it hard for you to “leave the womb” -- keeping you perennially a child. You tend to be sentimental, emotional, and to have difficulty letting go of the past. In past lives you hated to hurt anyone’s feelings and even took responsibility for the emotional reactions of other family members.

posted June 29, 2008 12:51 PM         

Like all Pluto dominated personalities, Jwhop is not going to give up the bone he is chewing. Perhaps we should let him pepper this thread with his amusing and off the wall tirades. They can add color and comic relief to sometimes dour astrological discussions.