posted February 20, 2003 10:50 AM              

The fact that we're talking about "casualties" as being acceptable I now find abhorrent.
You tell the Mom who watches here child or husband die that those are "acceptable losses".
As I said, I can't even rationally argue for the viability of any war any more. I'm disgusted, shaking and nauseous now by it.
I don't know what happened. I could calmly discuss this before. No longer.

posted February 20, 2003 12:13 PM              

That's why people need strong people in power to make the REAL decisions for them when's there's no easy or "right" answer.

prox, how about the thousands of Iraqi mothers & children that have watched all the men on their family be killed or kidnapped by Saddam's regime?

posted February 20, 2003 02:50 PM              

Milosevic, as Saddam, tried to promote an ethnic cleaning, he even created concentration camps as we saw in Second World War.
You remember of the bloody attacks and the massacre of Srebrenica.
The coast of Croatia, was bombed with grenades for thousands and thousand times, for no reason, except for intimidation .

No, Milosevic was not a threat to United States, for this reason, the military intervention was made by NATO with the command of United States and not just by the United States.

quote:

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If military intervention was justified against Milosevic why isn't it justified against Hussein?

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quote:

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There is no disagreement between Saddam and Bin Laden, they both hate the US.

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Jwhop,I'm posting my last considerations on this issue...

Vice president Dick Cheney interrupted his seclusion and appeared in public in two occasions to promote the invasion of Iraq, under the excuse that Saddam Hussein is a murderous dictator. I don't make restrictions to the choice of his vocabulary to define the president of Iraq, in fact dictator, in fact murderer. However, when Cheney was CEO of the oil company Halliburton, he made profitable commercial transactions with Hussein, ignoring noun and adjectival use.
The same Hussein that, - according to President Bush, represents an intolerable threat to the civilization, - was a customer of the Vice.
Okay... business is business and national interest it is another conversation.


This makes me conclude that conscience is not a monolithic sense. The human conduct is commanded by a malleable logic, that modifies under each event...that's why NOW, Dick Cheney wants the head of the president of Iraq .

Condaleezza Rice, when reminds the war between Iran and Iraq, said that in that occasion , the murderous dictator used suffocating gas against the Iranians.
"The Times", ("Officers Say U.S. Aided Iraq in War Despite Use of Gas," 8/18/02) reveals that, during the Reagan administration , the United States supplied decisive attendance to Iraq during the war of Saddam against Iran, and the intelligence agencies had full knowledge that the Irakis would use chemical weapons.

Confidential documentation of export' control of the Trade Department, obtained by Newsweek, display an extensive list of material correspondent to Baghdad. On the list of purchases of Saddam Hussein we have equipments of chemical analysis,satellite intelligence , helicopters, surveillance cameras, and numerous bacterium shipments, addressed to the Commission of Atomic Energy of Iraq.

Later the helicopters are used to disseminate a fog of poisonous gas on the Kurd.

Now we see the great scenic resources: the limelight indignation. Before the cameras and the microphones, Colin Powell, - at that time National Security Advisor of Ronald Reagan - condemned Hussein, twitched of revolt, because Saddam used poisonous gas against the army of Iran...yet, who gave these weapons to Saddam ?

Saddam Hussein is a monster created by the gov. of the United States that now intend to destroy him. The gov. of US gave him weapons, ammunition, personal computer, intelligence support ... and a handshake.

You must remember that the American nightmare in the beginning of the eighties was that the Iranians would occupy Iraq, follow Saudi Arabia, and, finally, to take control of all the fields of petroleum of the Arab desert.

Bin Laden is another Frankstein produced by the American gov. under the inspiration of a seasonal pragmatism of cold war when Soviet Union occupied Afghanistan. There were a complete lack of criteria , as maybe there is still today: enemies of the Soviets were friends of Washington.

It is the old history of the permanent interests and of the transitory friends...

Now, another murderous dictator , and besides "a communist", president Kim Jong II of North Korea, was so diabolical sincere ... he is developing an atomic bomb with the collaboration of Pakistan... President Musharaf, the most recent proselyte of the war against terror , hurried in rebutting the declaration.

The United States will try to solve this issue with diplomacy. Translating: this is a problem of China, South Korea, Russia, and Japan, the dictator's neighbors.
A typical case of two weights and two scales, some would say : to Iraq bombs; to Korea diplomacy...

Everything it's a game, and it is necessary to understand the rules.
How many barrels of petroleum we can find in the Korean underground ?
A rhetoric question doesn't request answers, only conclusions.

I close my case.

posted February 20, 2003 07:12 PM            

It is no more sloppy than one stating that America is fighting only for big oil companies. My statement is geared towards those that spew venom when one talks of eating meat as though we were committing a cardinal sin, yet they are the same people who would rather turn their backs on the children and women in Iraq.

I also find it totally insane that people would quote Iraqi and pro-Iraqi news / publications as truth while saying that anything that is anti-Iraq must be a lie.
I do thank you for the back handed compliment though.

One more thing, I know that I sometimes come across as terse or defensive, but in reality I do enjoy the debates and learning other people's views and beliefs ESPECIALLY when they are rooted in deep thought and introspection. I cannot tolerate idiots that jump on a bandwagon because it is popular to put down America or Americans. I especially think the Americans in this country that serve to only promote hate of our society and apologize for being Americans should leave.

I can see why so many people hate us. We have our freedom, we live in a beautiful country populated by mostly great and generous people and we stand together when things get rough. So, maybe I am sentimental, but I am damn proud to be here and to be an American.

Ahhh, I feel so much better now!! Oh yeah, Sun is transiting over my Mars so pardon me if I come across as too fiery.

posted February 20, 2003 07:30 PM            

Please tell me where you get your information? You seem to make blanket statements regarding the wealthy and upperclass but I have yet to see your allegations backed up with any facts other than from your mind.

jwhop,

I agree with the points that you have made. You are also right in that no matter how justified the war is (whenever it does take place), the communists and anarchists will always have a reason to hate America and promote the anti-war speech. They will used the tired North Korea argument (NK will sit still because they have Russia and China breathing down their necks as well), they will use loss of civilians as casualties as reason not to fight for the Iraqi (because it is better to see Saddam experiment on them than lose any through liberations) and when all else fails, they will say "It's just about big oil".

Whatever!!!

posted February 21, 2003 12:06 AM            

I'm going to let you and Ruby Red have the last word and not point out to you that the suffering citizens of Iraq that Saddam is torturing, murdering and raping on a daily basis aren't nearly as concerned about American motives for liberating them as you are. Any more than a woman being raped would first inquire if someone trying to drive off her attacker was pure of heart.

I also won't point out to you that taking chemical and biological weapons out of the hands of a brutal madman is, in just about anyone's book, a good thing.

Would you take the point that Iran was the bitter enemy of the US and also the enemy of Iraq. Would you also understand that Iraq was seen as the lesser of 2 evils--so to speak and also that the US did not give biological or chemical weapons to Iraq nor encourage their use. We gave Iraq tactical assistance and if you have any proof to the contrary, you could post it because unless you're a mind reader, you can't know what our intelligence agencies knew. Besides, you're mixing up your timeframes over a decade.

Your point that the US created a monster is off point. Saddam and Saddam alone is responsible for his behavior, as we all are, Bin Laden as well.

Since I agreed you and Ruby Red should have the last word, I won't leave you with the concept that sometimes the US intervenes just because it's the right thing to do, and we can.

jwhop

posted February 21, 2003 12:39 AM              

You remind me of my Saggie best friend. We love debating, just for the sake of debating, whether or not we agree, lol. And you have good form in your argument, a true academician (I just read your other post in the Alcoho/Drugs thread)

I'm done with this topic too y'all, I've said my peace.

I do appreciate everyone's thoughts and find it EXTREMELY stimulating to hear opinions from across the world.

Hearing views from across the world is a sobering effect for us Americans, a true reality check, free of American spin.

Once again I'm thanking LindaLand!

PS-
"I can see why so many people hate us. We have our freedom, we live in a beautiful country populated by mostly great and generous people and we stand together when things get rough. So, maybe I am sentimental, but I am damn proud to be here and to be an American"

posted February 21, 2003 12:55 AM              

Some of the anti-American jokes are funny. I admit to laughing at some of them. But there gets to a point where it gets really demeaning. I'm an American and I end up getting lumped into this ******* stupid category by the rest of the world and all the jokes just make it worse and worse.

I can hardly even visit one of my favorite band's board anymore because they are German and so many of the members there are so Anti-American that anything I say is put under a microscope. If I say anything in favor of war I get attacked.. if I say anything in favor of peace I get attacked.

98% of Americans are ignorant and that same percentage goes for the rest of the world no matter what country you go to. Speaking 5 languages doesn't make you a saint and it doesn't even make you intelligent.

I'm sure if I said all French people smell like really bad B.O. and are damn rude there would be some upset French people and I'd be accused of stereotyping at best.

Ultimately, the US is damned if we do and damned if we don't. If we ignore the international community we're criticized and if we but our noses in we're criticized.

I think people also forget that the majority of Americans didn't even vote for Bush. Hell I didn't even vote for Gore. I voted for Nader.

Not ALL Americans are greedy, gas guzzling jerks. yes, a lot of them are.. but things ARE changing. There are those of us here that are trying to open others eyes and help them see the bigger picture. I don't think that'll be done by bashing and hurtful methods. I like to teach by example.

I buy organic when I can afford it, I use enviromentally safe anything I can get my hands on, I would NEVER buy and SUV unless I lived on a mountain and actually NEEDED it, I try to find out more about international news and issues.

I can't possibly be THAT weird.

OH and btw.. my American made car.. the Saturn.. is WONDERFUL.

posted February 21, 2003 01:43 AM              

'Now, I'm not opposed by the stance the American Government has taken. The only thing I oppose is the way you give your opinions to people here.' RRR

Is that nice and clear for you?

Now, why would you say you are going to let us have the last word and then dribble on with you argument? Especially when you obviously dont take any notice of what my argument actually is.

Lets put things into perspective here.

A. Some people want action taken against sadam and his alleged weapons of mass destruction. They want to protect themselves, their families and their country. They also want to protect the rights that men have already fought and died for. Fair enough.

B. Some people want peace. They want a civilised resolution. Maybe they dont actually believe in a threat from these weapons of mass destruction. (for which we have been shown no proof, so why blame them?)

All I hear on the news is taking weapons of mass destruction from sadam. I havent herd anything about liberating the people of Iraq??!! how can they be liberated if they are dead? Ok, so he may kill them anyway?? That does not justify putting their lives at risk. Are they going to be embraced by America and let into the country to start new lives? (I know the American people would but I doubt our leaders would allow it). Our country locks all the refugees that flee here into detention centers.....so our government wont help them.

Then again, if our leaders didnt take a stance then we would accuse them of having our blood on their hands.

Either way, both arguments have merit.

So please, just respect others opinions and dont try to act all macho intelligent by pretending to know more then you dont. We are all in the same boat. Our lives are all at risk. We are all a little scared deep down. We are all mushrooms, kept in the dark (by our political leaders) and feed Shiznit.

posted February 21, 2003 11:26 AM              

"We are all mushrooms, kept in the dark (by our political leaders) and fed Shiznit."

posted February 21, 2003 12:28 PM            

I`m reminded that opinions are like rectums, everyone has one , they`re useful, but not exactly flaunted about.

Isn`t diversity a wonderful aspect of the human condition?

posted February 21, 2003 04:46 PM              

Or maybe, we are all mind readers here...

posted February 21, 2003 04:53 PM            

Waging WAR for Peace is like F*CKing For Virginity.

One last thing (what is it that wants to get the last word all the time? My leo rising, perhaps?) ..
You called the suggestion to flood Iraq with weapons and human rights inspectors naive? Well it wasn't my idea..It's the proposal of France and Germany, so if I'm naive then the leaders of those nations are as well, hmm?
Of course, bush is brushing the suggestion aside saying "WE can't drag our feet anymore..blah blah blah...elections are coming up too fast...I need to be a war hero president NOW..WAAAAAHHHH. Otherwise they might start looking too closely at my connections with the CARLYLE GROUP (Oil company builing a pipeline across Afghanistan now that we've cleared the way with our military presence there..Daddy bUSH still works for them and they work closely with the bin Laden family) or Unca Dicks connections and dirty dealings within Haliburton..Gotta keep the masses distracted by the perpetual, distant, unseen enemy"

posted February 21, 2003 06:34 PM            

Thank you for the compliment. I do think that you have made some great points, not only on this threat but the Alcohol / drug thread as well. You were very honest about your experiences.

I also think that your Leo nature is starting to really come out, which is great. I do have a soft spot for Leo's though! LOL.. I think most Saggies do and like your friend I do LOVE to debate.

Take Care,