posted March 17, 2003 03:38 PM              

eh, I'm too scared of Randall's wrath. LOL

posted March 17, 2003 06:01 PM              

Yet, on the matter of alternatives to war, there are many- and I for one do believe you can lead a psychopath by example. Of course, if you don't believe that, you don't... and probably won't be able to lead a psychopath by example . I don't believe that we have to either a.)war or b.)"turn a blind eye" to fix this situation.

We definitely should not turn a blind eye, we (the peaceful countries of the world) should get more involved in understanding and helping Saddam turn around his country in a way that benefits him and his people. And we should do it in a way that doesn't threaten him. The worst way to deal with an egoist or spiritually lost soul is to challenge them. Yes, I am suggesting helping Saddam, and as much as some may abhor the thought, I believe it would work. It would be more difficult and tedious, but we would transcend karma. But this is really an over-simplification of my thoughts and if you don't get it, you don't get it. That is all I can say about it really because it is not my desire to change views that are in place for a reason.

All in all I suppose it is a matter of what a person feels is their path or lesson in this Iraq matter. We are all on a different learning and teaching path....and none is better or worse. So it is just important to find out what you are getting out of every situation you are in and every belief you have. How strongly are you attached to your beliefs? Self-knowledge will lead to peace on Earth in alot of ways, so ultimately that is best.

posted March 17, 2003 10:30 PM              

quote:

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*sneakily toys with idea of using new super-human moderator-type power and locking evil thread*

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posted March 17, 2003 10:55 PM              

I understand what you are saying. I must say though, did he say he didn't want help? Also, yeah, his ego probably wouldn't respond too well if we said "Saddam, we want to help you..." We need to show him at least some respect so he feels some sense of dignity. Abusers generally dish out to people the exact things they fear. He is definitely fearful of being out of power, so he does horrible things to make people fear him... and so on and so on.

It is a terrible negative cycle and is hard to fix, understand and be compassionate towards, yes. But let's remember we are dealing with a man who has been in control of his country for upwards of 20 years and does not want to see himself as a loser. He is also in the minority as far as religious beliefs go (which actually may be good that he is not a radical religious leader) so he probably feels the need to exert extra control to keep it. On top of that, we destroyed 2/3 or more of his military power last time in the Gulf War and have serious embargos against him which is hurting his country and threatening his power even more. I feel that the vicious cycle is feeding itself... it is completely negative.

I mean, what has prevented us in the last 12 years since the Gulf War from making headway in the peace department with him? We could have been doing SO MUCH MORE. But what we choose to do is have embargos against him and not communicate. But I get the sense that some people prefer the instant gratification of the quick-fix called war. I mean it's easy, we're strong, right? All of a sudden we feel that his desire to have nuclear power is unacceptable. But how can we expect him to feel when we keep building up our nuclear weapons and get stronger and stronger. Maybe he is scared and thinks we want to rule the entire Earth and take his oil. Maybe his paranoid fears are getting the best of him. Whatever the reason, I feel like we (the peaceful nations of the world) haven't made a very strong concerted effort to communicate (like over the past 12 years) our true intentions, wishes and hopes for the future with him.

Obviously his psychological condition doesn't help and I believe we are making it worse by bullying him into submission and not allowing him to be part of the international clique just because he is running a communist country. Maybe if we accepted his views more, or tried to understand them, he'd be more willing to change them. I mean, it's not like a huge portion of Iraq's people don't enjoy and appreciate Western ideals anyway... including himself and his sons. It should be obvious that what he doesn't want is to be treated like an idiot....even if he is.

However, it is easy to feel that we are justified in destroying him, after all we are for peace, right? But can we really expect EVERYONE ELSE to trust that? We are talking about a 6,000 year old culture that is vastly different than ours that has been slowly but surely opening up to the possibility of having Western ideals in their daily lives. I am sure there are people there who want what we have, but to force it through war has serious consequences spiritually and physically in my opinion.

Well, that is about all I have left to say on this. I know our views differ, but again, I want you to know that I understand and respect what you are saying and I think it is safe to say we both agree that eventual world peace would be the best. May God bless the entire Earth.

posted March 17, 2003 11:33 PM              

Hmmm, yes this string is pretty long! I came in here late, I can only imagine what it's been like through it all!

One thing though, is it customary to lock long topics because they are long? I personally have found this topic quite enlightening... from both sides.

posted March 17, 2003 11:43 PM              

I know this stuff gets so heated in everyday discussions everywhere

posted March 17, 2003 11:53 PM              

But not everyone can be so spiritual & detached...

Some of us are rooted in a hardcore reality with disturbing facts that slap us in the face.

posted March 18, 2003 05:06 PM              

I am here, in this site, since May of 2002 and during this time, I saw a lot of people with different point of view , different ideias and ideals and no matter how much any discussion was more or less strong, I never saw prejudice in this site... what unhappily I see now, in this thread...

Your declaration is lamentable and a shame...

A war, or better saying, an attack to a country that can begin a world war and unchain terrorist actions around the world, it's a subject to all humanity, because in one way or another, the world will be affected by this war.

The American government justifies this attack saying that Saddam possesses chemical weapons of destruction in mass ...yet, nothing was proven, even because the inspectors of UN didn't have time to finishing their work and this is the reason why the WORLD is against this attack...

I stood back of this thread before you appear because I was feeling some prejudice of another person, not from Alena, LL or Jwhop, they always exposed their ideas in a quite positive way, without personal attacks... but when a person don't get to maintain a discussion in a high level, she have to appeal for this prejudice type using this kind of declaration... a declaration that comes exactly from an American... a country admired all over the world by the ideals of freedom of expression... maybe you also agree with racial segregation...

But, as Pearly said, with so wise words " We are all on different learning and teaching path..."

I personally believe that the American government is using a hammer to break an egg... but as I had said previouslyin in another post, I don't intend to give no more opinion on this subject... in this post I just want to say that you are acting with prejudice and being obtuse, so, you're having a dictator's attitude, and it is exactly a dictator's attitude that the government of your country is combatting...

posted March 18, 2003 05:10 PM              

Love you guys

posted March 18, 2003 07:08 PM            

It could have also been me. I know I said something to the effect, that what would someone in another country do if they had been attacked or would it take Saddam or the terrorists unleashing a bioweapon on their soil before they would believe the evidence.

All this talk about proof is lame. That is so much like the criminal defense attorney that preaches to the jury that just because his client was not seen killing means there is no proof that he did it. Nevermind that there is DNA evidence, nevermind that there is the a witness to the defendant bragging about the murder is submitted into court.

So, now we don't have proof that there is a package containing weaponized anthrax that says "Property of Saddam the wacknut" or is wrapped in a nice little gift box saying "To my friend in Terror Usama Bin Rotten from your pal Saddam".

No we don't have a picture of Saddam in a lab coat posing for the cameras with a nerve gas dispenser gassing a dog.

What DO we have: We have 8500 liters of anthrax that was declared by Saddam as missing.

We have meetings with Al-Queada (sp) peeps and Saddam's peeps taking place in Iraq, Germany and England.

We have NSA chatter linking conversations between both countries and terrorists

We have paperwork found in Usama Bin Rottens cave palace with maps, blueprints and a "How to take out the Infidels" manual.

Would you like for me to continue? No, what you want is for Saddam to come out and say "Yep, I did it and Usama is my buddy" But, then again for some of the hardcore disbelievers you will say 'This is another American plot to overthrow a wonderful man by scaring him into making that confession'.

There is no amount of proof, there is no amount of justification for some people.

I ask you "Do you really trust Saddam NOT to unleash a chemical weapon?"

We know the following to be true:

1) He has done it before
2) He has murdered his own family members
3) He has killed his own people
4) He has killed people he hates
5) He has tried to take over Iran
6) He invaded Kuwait
7) He plotted to kill American Presidents (Bush and Clinton)
8) He set his own and other countries oil fields on fire
9) He uses rape as a form of punishment
10) He kills children to make thier parents confess.

So, based on that, wouldn't you want to stop him?
We will find his weapons and we will get rid of that idiot.

posted March 18, 2003 11:37 PM              

Jakie so much truth, sadly, in your sig. But thanks for the compliment

posted March 19, 2003 03:57 AM              

MARK MY WORDS!!!!

We will see where you are when we have overtaken Saddam's regime & recovered ALL of the nuclear/chemical/biological weapons that we knew he had...

You're gonna pull a France, right?

"If Saddam uses chemical munitions that will change everyhting for the French gov't, and it[France] would like to take part in supporting a campaign against his regime"

posted March 19, 2003 08:55 AM              

I was simply stating that some countries are not as fortunate as others to openly be able to express their views about government issues.

Sorry if you took offense to the post. Yes, threats are present and are going to be on a higher level now. However, (again this is my point of view only) the world is not the same as it was before... if we do nothing then the threats are still going to be looming.

posted March 19, 2003 09:04 AM              

I am someone that comes from Native American, German, Irish and Dutch descendant so would that make much sense of me to be that way??

I have many friends of different origins... also am close to others with a different viewpoint than my own.

posted March 19, 2003 11:15 AM              

I would like say that I never had any problems here with anyone and I would not like to begin to have now... not in such sad times for all of us...

I'm sorry for my last post... but when I read what 1scorp wrote, something larger than me made me write those words...

Anyway, I believe that this is not the moment for discussions.... yet, this is a moment for us to unite ourselves in prayers - as Alena said - for all the soldiers that are in the Golf, for the Iraquian people and to pray that Saddam understand that the only possible solution to avoid this conflict is that he goes to the exile...
If that happens, it will be a moment of glory for all to us...

I just saw on tv that the vice -prime minister of Iraq, Tarek Aziz, would have left the country and he is exiled on Saudi Arabia... this information it's from the press of the Arab language's countries . However, the news was not confirmed officially by the Iraquian government.
But, who knows ... maybe this is the beginning of the end of Saddam's regime...

I will pray... because now this is the only thing that remains for us...

I want to apologize with 1scorp, LL, Alena, Pidaua, and anyone else that I might have hurt.
You may not believe, but you are important for me as friends

Jakie

"Ah! Don't say you agree with me. When people agree with me. I always feel that I must be wrong."
Oscar Wilde

posted March 19, 2003 11:33 AM              

I agree this issue is really no longer up for debate, we will have to just sit back & watch now.