posted May 06, 2003 05:36 PM              

Ah, religion and politics...

The two things I vow never to argue about. lol

posted May 06, 2003 10:04 PM              

Low blow Pid!

Sounds more like you're attacking me, and you are making the attacks PERSONAL...... most unbecoming..... especially for an academic like yourself

posted May 07, 2003 10:57 AM            

I am sorry about what I said. I will take it off. It was rude of me and I really didn't want to hurt your feelings. I did want to demonstrate that using "word" can hurt, which is what you did to me. So, I guess you can say that this Sag made a mistake and I do apologize for the thorn in your paw.

posted May 07, 2003 11:52 AM            

You totally misunderstood my statement. I have already addressed NW on the issue of communism and individualism / free will on another thread. That is why I directed my response to him. I am entitled to answer a question in any way that I desire aren't I? In the past I have even responded to e-mails sent to me regarding communism to NW. I am sure that if he wanted an more explanatory answer he would have asked me again.

posted May 07, 2003 12:18 PM              

And in true fashion of religious conservatives,
The threat of scientific & logical evidence that surmounts in an indisputable challenge to church doctrine is met with illogical and even fanatical defense.

posted May 07, 2003 12:57 PM              

*shrugs* but like i said, have it your way, but tread on people in your persuit of your own personal and expect to get bitten.

posted May 07, 2003 01:00 PM            

You first insinuated that the following:

A wise man once told me,
"Religion is for people who need direction"
I think it holds some merit.

Then you responded to my saying God give us free will with the following:

God DOES NOT give us free will, where did you get that from?
I don't understand why people have to buy into flawed man-made institutions that try to control every aspect of their life to give it meanng?

Since I am: 1) A Christian 2) Follow a religion you attacked my beliefs and choice.

I am also a scientist and I do look at things objectively, but with many concepts there is a leap of FAITH that we must take.

There are people that believe in Shamanism, Magick, Hinduism...etc...are they all misdirected? What about those that uphold Astrology? Are they / we just a bunch of misdirected, mislead souls in need of answers?

Maybe that is it and we ARE all looking for answers. I never said one religion is better than another. I do take issue to those people that say to subscribe to a religion that follows Scripture or the Bible is some how demeaning and that we are somehow "less intelligent" than others. Other what? Others that believe and follow a political, social or other "spiritual" philosophy?

posted May 07, 2003 01:10 PM              

As for Astrology, I hold true the principles of planetary (magnetic/gravitational) forces more than anything else religiously in this world, and kinda combine it with a Karma-type belief. Planetary forces, although very little is truly understood of them by man, are probably a more significant factor in the effects of our lives and of our world than we really know.

posted May 07, 2003 01:22 PM            

Science is not hard fact. It is always changing and evolving. There was a time when through science we discovered DNA but it was Science that said proof indicated it was not valid. Hmmmm, now we hold genes and DNA to be the "be all end all".

Science was told us and proved to us that a cell is a cell and cannot be changed. Now we are using recombinant DNA to splice the genes from a a firefly into e-coli to light up plate of agar.

To be a Scientist requires that one has the most faith of any other discipline. Faith that your theory will hold true, faith that the tenant are real and faith that it will all be blown away with another discovery.

Science is ALWAYS proving it self wrong. That is why I love it, because it is like wearing a blindfold and trying to paint a picture of life.

By the way Lost Leo, you did squash your own argument. You believe that no one gives us free will as it is our own, therefore you cannot say that God does not give us free will because it is not of your belief system PERIOD.

posted May 07, 2003 03:49 PM            

If you do not believe in God, then free will or the argument of free will is obsolete. You said "God does not give us free will". That is because you do not believe in a God that can or cannot grant free will. The argument is pointless.

For those of us that are Christian we DO believe in a God that gives us free will. We use the Bible and the fact that everyone has a choice to believe that they want without repurcussions. As I stated before, if I chose not to believe in God, would he strike me dead? One can say, well no, because there is no God.

posted May 07, 2003 04:14 PM              

The fact you base your argument on one unproveable premise (God exists) and a second premise that is infactual (Bible is truth), makes a conclusion that is without merit (God gives us free will)

In all honestly,

(theoretically) If have no PROOF of a God

God only exists on your faith

Otherwise stated, God exists if you make him up and believe what you make up,

If you make him up, you could make him up however the f**k you want,

So if you're making a mystical being up,

You could make him up to be whatever the hell you want,

Saying he gives you free will,

He gives you a destiny,

He gives you superhuman powers that no one else can see but you

So my child, you unfortunately have an argument based on a fiction,

A fiction that is formed by you, for you,

posted May 07, 2003 04:28 PM            

Prove it!

posted May 07, 2003 04:31 PM              

"The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad"
-Nietzsche

"Faith is a euphemism for prejudice and religion is a euphemism for superstition"
-Paul Keller

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich"
-Napolean

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
-Carl Sagan

"The doctrine that the earth is neither the center of the universe nor immovable, but moves even with a daily rotation, is absurd, and both philosophically and theologically false, and at the least an error of faith"
-Church's decision against Galileo

"If the Bible and my brain are both the work of the same Infinite God, whose fault is it that the book and my brain do not agree?"
-Inglenook

"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind"
-Albert Einstein

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit"
-Thomas Paine

"At present there is not a single credible established religion in the world"
-George Bernard Shaw

Not EVERY SINGLE one of these great minds can be wrong...?

posted May 07, 2003 05:19 PM            

We live in a country that affords us a lot of freedoms, those are protected by the Constitution that some very enlightened men set up for us.

Whether or not I choose to take part in a religious service is MY choice, protected by my country, so I think it was very important that they intercede.

What if...you or your child went to school tomorrow, and the new principal was a Muslim, or Jewish, and decided that everyone must pray according to the Koran, or anything else that you don't particularly subscribe to as a faith. Aren't you glad that your right to choose is defended?

posted May 07, 2003 05:21 PM            

It just demonstrates that some great minds think alike...but then, some don't!