posted May 07, 2003 08:25 PM              

I hope I did misunderstand! But all I saw was someone saying "Why" and then you responding "I'm not even going to dignify that with a response". Well, that was a response in itself.

I enjoy what you ahve to say. I just noticed some defensiveness...which seems to happen a lot with these topics. Some people feel it's because they're arguing something they believe in; others may feel it's a mechanism to deflect opposing thoughts. Religion is particularly tricky, since it would mean (for many people), questioning their entire lives.

Anyhoo..

posted May 07, 2003 11:33 PM              

I value prayer very much personally. It has helped me thru many tough times and is helping me now.

If we wanna get technical, I spose it imposes religion on people. If we look at the world around us today, is that such an awful thing? Maybe and maybe not. I have seen religion (mormon) do some horrible things mentally to gay people. I emailed them my two cents because they even tell their own gay teens that they are better off commiting suicide, God will have more mercy on them. And then they encourage shock treatment (I'm not talking about little shocks either) to the gay people in hopes to change them. Boy does religion get twisted by man so much. Seems people can either turn it to something good or something very bad- like terrorism.

But I do beleive in every person's right to their own beleif and no one should have to recite something they don't beleive or were brought up to beleive differently.

Why can't everyone just say their own little thing of the golden rule, which works all around if you ask me

posted May 08, 2003 09:33 AM            

Personally, I feel that neither science or religion are sufficient, but for some reason, this life includes both. And both are a quest to explain life. But here's the rub: life transcends both science and religion. Neither can answer the big question: Why are we here? They can tell you how you breathe, and how you should live your life, maybe, but we have a very small understanding of the cosmic game of life.

I eschew religion, it's a personal choice. But I love life, and even on the days that is sucks I can go home to my three kitties and be happy for the joy they bring me. And I believe in some higher power, some order to the world, I just can't buy that it's a cosmic accident. Look around, be amazed that the sun rises each day, the flowers bloom each year, that we breathe in, and out, and in again, that we have the capacity to love and hate, that we can taste chocolate, that the earth goes 'round the sun...that you can experience an orgasm but you could never describe it to another, just as you can't explain to anyone what it is to love, at least not sufficiently, one has to experience it. So it is as well with hate, one must experience it.

Science can pick it apart as much as it wants and tell you how it works, but it still can't tell you why. Big Bang? C'mon.

Anyway, didn't mean to go off ! Just been reading these posts, and I've noticed a lot of the posters on this board are in a bit of a down-swing and doing their best to lift themselves up...and, sometimes it's cool to remember that there is joy in life, but in the Yin and Yang of everything, we have to experience balance...which kind of means embracing even your down periods...if that makes sense! Hey, it's early and I don't drink caffeine! LOL

Oh, off subject for a sec...wondering if any of the previously mentioned posters are experiencing that last of Saturn in Gemini? I know Fajita is Aquarius, and proxieme Pisces, might Saturn have been squaring you, proxieme?

Back on subject...gotta say kudos to Oxychick for being unafraid to open up big cans 'o worms! Religion always seems to polarize people, but open forums like this are wonderful, they help us think and crystalize our personal beliefs.

posted May 08, 2003 12:22 PM            

I was in no way being defensive in regards to NW. I just chose not to go into detail because I had already addressed communism as it relates to the individual. I also know that NW likes to throw out comments to get things stirred up, but that is what is so great about him.

Now, I did get defensive over Lost Leo making a judgement concerning his knowing God's will or if there is Free will according Lost Leo. I started out just making a flippant / funny statement about me being in need of direction...etc... as a way of breaking the tension. Then Lost Leo pounces on religion and those who subscribe to it as being somehow less of a person / less intellectual.

Of course I will defend my principles and those of the people that I know regardless of what religion they adhere to. I would do the same in defense of someone who believed in one of many of our Worlds religions because that it their choice and we do not have the right to correct their beliefs.

I also feel that it is quite ironic to that an astrology forum, that gives host to people who believe in planetary influences as giving form to the personality and events, could actually scoff at a belief system, such as Christianity, when astrology itself has come underfire by so many so called Intellectuals.

Lost Leo brings up science as being a part of astrology, well that is his belief. Most scientists will at least give a nod to Christianity but completely downgrade astrology. I watched a TLC program that hosted physicists, astronomers, biologists and psychiatrists that all not only laughed at astrology, but also rolled their eyes in contempt that anyone with a brain would subscribe to such nonsense.

I think they are entilted to their opinion, but they are way out of line in trying to speak for a subject that they do not understand. For the astronomer to say "Astrology is not a real science as you cannot prove that the planetary aspects have any correlation to events or personality".

The astronomer is making an assumption on a belief system without having the facts. The same is true to argue that God does not give free will. Many religiions that have a central God or Supreme being subscribe to the theory that the Supreme being in question give us the Choice or Free will to believe or not believe. Is that not true? If you pick up a book on Buddism, Taoism, Hindism, Islam, Christianity, or Judaism, even the Pagan religiions, aren't we given free choice to choose by that being?

posted May 08, 2003 12:38 PM            

You are so right. I like what you said and I had been thinking about the beauty in the world this morning. I can't help but attribute so much to a higher source especially when I see the beauty in nature. Just look at how complex we humans are or how amazing it is to see a flower bloom and even the tiny details within a single-celled organism. I am always blown away by what is around us that we take for granted.

I also think that religion polarizes, it is as though one cannot tolerate the other and the non-believers hate the believers and vice versa. It would be so much easier if we all just understood that it is not weak to believe nor is weak not to believe.

Yeah, I have been feeling the Saturn thing. It is directly opposing my Sun right now and has been causing a might oppression for the last 2 years. Combine that with Pluto sitting on my Venus and Sun and at times it just brings this Saggie down a step or two. Both planets are also squaring my natal Pluto and Ascendent.But, every day is new and things always get better.

posted May 08, 2003 01:35 PM            

Ya know...I was thinkin', and whether it's realized or not, a belief in Astrology is by its very nature a belief in a higher power of some sort. Astrology is not arbitrary, but a cosmic science based on specific order and plan, one that indicates (though does not compel) our personalities and how we live. Ergo, life itself is not abritrary.

posted May 09, 2003 11:57 AM            

You can say what you want. You may think I am so blinded by faith that I cannot fathom your opinion. That's not true. I understand where you are coming from and it's not like I haven't heard the arguments before. I am open minded to other faiths and theories. I would defend anyone's religion and would not think to tell them they are wrong, because I do not subscribe to that belief.

That is the difference. I love hearing about other religions and belief systems. I have a grandmother that used to practice the old ways or was considered a Pagan. I had a great-grandmother that talked to the other side, read Tarot and auras. At the same time I also have family that belongs to the Catholic, Lutheran, Mormon and Apostolic churches. Who's wrong? No one, I don't have that right to tell them what their God / Goddesses can and can't do in the form of free will. That is not my place and it's not your's either.

posted May 09, 2003 01:59 PM            

nooooooooooooooo... the Leo had to just keep pushing..so I had to keep pushing back.

We will just agree that you are the

and I am the

posted May 09, 2003 07:10 PM              

Usually they shut up or become so angered they fly off the handle like you did.

posted May 12, 2003 03:35 PM            

I think it is really funny that I have made the effort to apologize and to agree to disagree. You on the other hand, have made remark after remark about me, once again insinuating that I am one of the religious nuts that is misguided or that I "fly off the handle" in anger. Then, you have to throw the last little dig about me being wrong, when there is no wrong or right.

I even played this off in a joking manner, but true to your form you had to dismiss the jesture and keep pushing. So, believe what you want. You are just one person out of a lifetime of humans that will cross my path. You can think of me anyway you want to, but the fact remains, you will not be instrumental in my life in the scheme of things and you therefore mean nothing to me on a long term basis.

posted May 13, 2003 06:28 AM              

If for some reason, anyone can't access that article, I'll post it. Just that it's long.

But it generally just says that most U.S. schools still allow prayer in the classroom...ever so faithfully keeping up that separation of church and state. Grrr THIS is where it becomes fanatical-imposing beliefs on impressionable children who don't know any differently.

posted May 13, 2003 03:31 PM            

Fajita,

Yes, I do come off very strong and I am not ashamed of that. Lost Leo is also strong. What I was questioning was how he dealt with me concerning a certain matter about speaking on behalf of God in reference to free will when he does not believe that God grants that anyway. As I stated before, I don't believe that it is someone's right to step in and tell another what is right or wrong about their religion or belief system.

I can dish it out and I can certainly take it.

posted May 13, 2003 05:17 PM              

I think you both need to kiss and make up!
Even if you weren't "really" bickering...

Also, I think that it's actually pretty admirable of you "both" to be able to dig in to your beliefs. Not saying who I agree on a personal level with... as I "personally with myself" find religion to be something private with the individual.