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Author Topic:   THOSE horrific photos!
ozonefiller
Newflake

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posted May 12, 2004 04:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
why am I not supprised Randall? It seems to me that those "few bad apples" are as big as pumkins!

It's only a matter time that will tell which exactly are those who were in command at the time that these incidences took place.

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jwhop
Knowflake

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posted May 12, 2004 04:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So Ozone, are you attempting to say Clinton was not fined $90,000 for perjury. Are you attempting to say Clinton didn't pay Paula Jones a settlement of $850,000. Are you attempting to say Clinton wasn't stripped of his Arkansas law license for 5 years?

You have a lot of nerve Ozone. Posting an article from The Middle East Media Research Institute as though anything from that flea infested group could be taken for truth. You apparently aren't prepared to believe the Iraqi front line commander who told the British he had personally seen chemical weapons on the front lines in the days just before the war. That doesn't seem to be good enough for you but you will accept the words of Saddam's supporters who say that the yellow cake was for peaceful purposes. What peaceful purposes Ozone. We're talking about 500 tons of refined Uranium. Iraq has no nuclear power plants, no nuclear battleships, aircraft carriers, destroyers, submarines or nuclear anything else. Nor was Iraq building any. What they were doing was trying to refine yellow cake into plutonium, bomb grade plutonium for a nuclear weapon.

Yeah Ozone it's all in the Yellow Cake!

Anyone here want to get sick to their stomachs. Just click on the link to the source of Ozone's article he posted, click around and read a few of the types of articles posted on the MEMRI site.
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sr&ID=SR2804

I didn't call you a liar Ozone. I said you post lies, not quite same thing. From the lips of America's enemies straight to your ears, eh Ozone?

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jwhop
Knowflake

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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted May 12, 2004 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So Ozone, how do you feel about terrorists beheading the American contractor in Iraq.

Is that the same, worse or not as bad as putting women's panties on the heads of terrorsts, putting a collar and leash on terrorists, arranging terrorists in embassassing positions, etc?

Is murdering a non combatant the same, worse or not as bad as embarrassing terrorist combatants?

jwhop

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LibraSparkle
unregistered
posted May 12, 2004 04:55 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Let's say, hypothetically, this article is true, and these orders are coming from higher up (which I tend to believe).

If the lower ranking military person (sorry... I am ignorant of military lingo) refused to follow a command from a higher up like these (s)he knows to be morally wrong, what could the repercussions be for such a soldier?

I honestly don't know, but I'm guessing they woudln't be rewarded for bravery in a state of adversity.

------------------
*~We could learn a lot from crayons: some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors... but hey all exist very nicely in the same box.~*

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lalalinda
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posted May 12, 2004 05:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lalalinda     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Its called insubordination and treason

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lioneye68
unregistered
posted May 12, 2004 05:15 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What that group of mongrols did to that young man was not even parallel to taking an eye for an eye...If that's what they were trying to achieve, then wouldn't humiliating Coalition POW be the equivelant? At least to sane people it would be. And how would the world react to that news story? I'll tell you how. "Oh, big deal. Their egos will recover".

If the shoe were on the other foot, would coalition forces sever the head of an Iraqi contracter, who's only reason for being there was to offer up his technical skills to the rebuilding effort? Of course not. They're not blood thirsty monsters like the Al-Quidua (sp?)and it's supporters.

You know what I think about the humiliation games those soldiers were playing with their prisoners? Big Deal. Their ego's will recover. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for the young contracter.

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ozonefiller
Newflake

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posted May 12, 2004 05:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
AMMAN, Jordan (Reuters) - Jordanian state television aired Monday what it said were confessions by captured militants tied to al Qaeda who said they had planned deadly chemical attacks that could have killed thousands of people.


Authorities had already reported the plot earlier this month, but the confessions shown on a prime-time broadcast provided further details of the planned attacks.


The arrested militants, who included Syrians, said they were ordered by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, accused by Washington of being a top al Qaeda supporter, to attack targets that included the heavily fortified U.S. embassy and intelligence headquarters.


The head of the group, Azmi Jayousi, said that he first met Zarqawi during his training in an al Qaeda camp in Afghanistan and met him again in Iraq without giving any dates.


"I pledged allegiance to Zarqawi and after the fall of Afghanistan I met him again in Iraq," said Jayousi, who had clearly identifiable bruises on his face and palm.

"Zarqawi commissioned me to go to Jordan to wage military action," Jayousi said in the 20-minute broadcast where he calmly recounted how he carefully planned with his accomplices the chemical attacks using trucks.


A narrator, without any detailed explanation, said at least 80,000 people would have been killed in the attack by toxic fumes spreading over a radius of more than three miles. The high figure cited was symptomatic of the high tension prevailing in the kingdom, with wide media coverage of raids and street checks.


Jayousi said he set up a chemical factory near the northern city of Irbid, close to the Syrian border, and received $170,000 in financing and logistic aid along with fake passports and forged banknotes from Suleiman Darwish, an alleged Zarqawi aide living in Syria.


The broadcast showed graphic pictures of the location of the alleged chemical plants and the trucks that were to be used in the attacks. It did not say what type of chemical explosives were being prepared.

Another captured militant shown on television was a Syrian national, Annas Sheikh Amin, 18, who said he went to Afghanistan where he was trained at a Qaeda camp before heading to Jordan.


Jordanian Hussein Sharif said he was driven by a fervent belief that the attacks would promote the cause of Muslims.


"I agreed to this operation because I thought it would serve Islam," a bearded Sharif said.


Security sources said al Qaeda had sought to punish Jordan for supporting Washington's efforts to pacify post-war Iraq, and was incensed over covert aid Jordan had given to the U.S. military campaign there.


Jordanian officials said ten days ago they had found explosive-carrying cars believed to have been loaded by an underground group linked to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network.


Jayousi said he planned the attack with trucks laden with 20 tons of explosives. King Abdullah said after the arrest of the group earlier this month that it had had saved "thousands of lives"


Jordanian intelligence officials have often boasted in recent years that their efforts have foiled plots by al Qaeda-linked militants to launch deadly attacks on Western targets and government installations.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GENEVA (May 11) - Up to 90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested ''by mistake,'' according to coalition intelligence officers cited in a Red Cross report disclosed Monday. It also says U.S. officers mistreated inmates at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison by keeping them naked in dark, empty cells.

Abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers was widespread and routine, the report finds - contrary to President Bush's contention that the mistreatment ''was the wrongdoing of a few.''

While many detainees were quickly released, high-ranking officials in Saddam Hussein's government, including those listed on the U.S. military's deck of cards, were held for months in solitary confinement.

Red Cross delegates saw U.S. military intelligence officers mistreating prisoners under interrogation at Abu Ghraib and collected allegations of abuse at more than 10 other detention facilities, including the military intelligence section at Camp Cropper at Baghdad International Airport and the Tikrit holding area, according to the report.


The 24-page document cites abuses - some ''tantamount to torture'' - including brutality, hooding, humiliation and threats of ''imminent execution.''

''These methods of physical and psychological coercion were used by the military intelligence in a systematic way to gain confessions and extract information and other forms of cooperation from persons who had been arrested in connection with suspected security offenses or deemed to have an 'intelligence value.'''

High-ranking officials were singled out for special treatment, according to the report, which the International Committee of the Red Cross confirmed as authentic after it was published by The Wall Street Journal on Monday.

''Since June 2003 over a hundred 'high value detainees' have been held for nearly 23 hours a day in strict solitary confinement in small concrete cells devoid of daylight,'' says the report. ''Their continued internment several months after their arrest in strict solitary confinement constituted a serious violation of the third and fourth Geneva Conventions.''

It did not say who the detainees were, but an official who discussed the report with the Red Cross told The Associated Press they include some of the 55 top officials in Saddam's regime named in the deck of cards given to troops.


The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said detainees held at Baghdad International Airport include many of the 44 ''deck of cards'' suspects already captured. It was not clear if Saddam was at the airport, but the Red Cross has said it visited him in coalition detention somewhere in Iraq last month.

The high-value detainees were deprived of any contact with other inmates, ''guards, family members (except through Red Cross messages) and the rest of the outside world,'' the report says.

Those whose investigations were near an end were said to be allowed to exercise together outside the cells for 20 minutes twice a day.

The report says some coalition military intelligence officers estimated ''between 70 percent and 90 percent'' of the detainees in Iraq ''had been arrested by mistake. They also attributed the brutality of some arrests to the lack of proper supervision of battle group units.''

The agency said arrests tended to follow a pattern.

''Authorities entered houses usually after dark, breaking down doors, waking up residents roughly, yelling orders, forcing family members into one room under military guard while searching the rest of the house and further breaking doors, cabinets and other property,'' the report says.

''Sometimes they arrested all adult males present in a house, including elderly, handicapped or sick people,'' it says. ''Treatment often included pushing people around, insulting, taking aim with rifles, punching and kicking and striking with rifles.''

It was unclear what the Red Cross meant by ''mistake.'' However, many Iraqis have claimed U.S. forces arrested them because of misunderstandings, bogus claims by personal enemies, mistaken identity or simply for being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

One former detainee who claims he was abused, Haider Sabbar Abed, said he was arrested in July when the driver of the car he was in was unable to produce proper papers at a U.S. checkpoint. He was not released until April 15.

In one operation, U.S. special operations troops detained nearly the entire male population of the village of Habbariyah, ranging in age from 81 to 13, apparently to prevent terrorists from slipping across the border from Saudi Arabia. The 79 men were held for weeks.

Language problems sometimes led to detainees' ''being slapped, roughed up, pushed around or pushed to the ground,'' according to the Red Cross report. ''A failure to understand or a misunderstanding of orders given in English was construed by guards as resistance or disobedience.''

The report says that in coalition prisons ''ICRC delegates directly witnessed and documented a variety of methods used to secure the cooperation'' of the inmates ''with their interrogators.'' The delegates saw detainees kept ''completely naked in totally empty concrete cells and in total darkness.''

''Upon witnessing such cases, the ICRC interrupted its visits and requested an explanation from the authorities,'' the report says. ''The military intelligence officer in charge of the interrogation explained that this practice was 'part of the process.'''

This apparently meant detainees were progressively given clothing, bedding, lighting and other items in exchange for cooperation, it says.

The report says the Red Cross found evidence supporting prisoners' allegations of other forms of abuse during arrest, initial detention and interrogation - including burns, bruises and other injuries.

Once detainees were moved to regular prison facilities, the abuses typically stopped, it says.

The report also cites widespread abuse of power and ill-treatment by Iraqi law enforcement officers under the coalition, including extorting money from people in their custody by threatening to hand them over to coalition authorities. Under the Geneva Conventions, the coalition is responsible for the Iraqi officers' behavior, the report says.

The Red Cross has emphasized that the report was only a summary of its repeated attempts in person and in writing from March to November 2003 to get U.S. officials to stop abuses. Those earlier interventions by the Red Cross far preceded the Pentagon's decision to investigate after a low-ranking U.S. soldier stepped forward in January.

The Geneva-based organization gave its report to coalition forces in February. The prisoner abuse erupted into an international scandal in recent days after the publication of disturbing photographs from Abu Ghraib.

The Red Cross said it wanted to keep the report confidential because it saw U.S. officials making progress in responding to their complaints. Still, the American reaction was far slower than that of British officials, according to the report.

It says the Red Cross informed the commander of British forces in April 2003 of ''ill-treatment'' by military intelligence personnel in interrogating Iraqis at Umm Qasr in southern Iraq. ''This intervention had the immediate effect to stop the systematic use of hoods and flexi-cuffs in the interrogation section of Umm Qasr.''

--------------------------------------------

A Times Editorial
Published January 23, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A year ago, President Bush used his State of the Union address to sound a frightening alarm about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The president told the nation that Iraq had amassed 25,000 liters of anthrax, 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin and 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve gas. He also charged that Saddam Hussein's regime had sought to acquire "significant quantities" of refined uranium and special aluminum tubes whose only practical use was as part of a program to develop nuclear weapons.

And he offered a chilling warning that only one vial from those vast stockpiles of weapons could "bring a day of horror like none we have ever known."

That dire, detailed warning of a looming threat to our national security served as the Bush administration's justification for war in Iraq. Of course, no weapons of mass destruction of any kind have been found there. No anthrax. No botulinum. No VX. In fact, U.S. weapons inspectors have not even found significant evidence of programs that might eventually have led to the development of weapons. And the allegations concerning Iraq's efforts to develop a nuclear weapons program were proved to have been based on fraudulent evidence.

Yet, having staked the reputation of our government on his allegations against Iraq, President Bush hasn't even tried to explain, much less apologize for, the utter lack of evidence to support the stark charges he made a year ago. Instead, the president talked in this year's State of the Union address of Iraq's "weapons of mass destruction-related program activities."

Would the nation have been so quick to support the president's call to war on the basis of vague references to Iraq's "weapons of mass destruction-related program activities"?

And is it any wonder that even those Iraqis who bitterly opposed Hussein are suspicious of U.S. motives now? Leaders of the Shiites, who suffered from decades of oppression under Hussein, don't trust the U.S. plan to select a new Iraqi government through a series of regional caucuses later this year. They demand direct, transparent elections. Leaders of the Iraqi Kurds, who were our allies in the battle to topple Hussein, don't trust U.S. assurances that they will receive an acceptable degree of autonomy under a new constitution.

When the Bush administration's prewar justifications collapsed, its postwar promises were inevitably called into question as well. The president and other administration officials now justify the war on humanitarian grounds: Hussein's horrific crimes against his own people demanded his removal from power. That is a compelling argument, but it is not the one the White House made prior to war. Nor is it one the White House has extended to other repressive regimes, including the other members of the "axis of evil" singled out in last year's State of the Union address. And North Korea and Iran really do have dangerous weapons programs.

The president made it clear Tuesday night that he doesn't think he owes the American people or the world an explanation for the exaggerated claims he made a year ago in building a pretext for war. Since then, hundreds of Americans and thousands of Iraqis have died in that war, and Iraq's future remains uncertain. American credibility has been a casualty, too.

As the president himself said with no apparent sense of irony: "For diplomacy to be effective, words must be credible."

[Last modified January 23, 2004, 01:32:51]


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ozonefiller
Newflake

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posted May 12, 2004 05:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's not eye for an eye,Lioneye! It's war crime for a war crime now and that's why I think that it's gonna get even worse if this kind of crap continues.

This country can lose everything (including NATO) for the support of war criminals under the Geneva convention!

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ozonefiller
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posted May 12, 2004 05:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
You have a lot of nerve Ozone. Posting an article from The Middle East Media Research Institute as though anything from that flea infested group could be taken for truth. You apparently aren't prepared to believe the Iraqi front line commander who told the British he had personally seen chemical weapons on the front lines in the days just before the war. That doesn't seem to be good enough for you but you will accept the words of Saddam's supporters who say that the yellow cake was for peaceful purposes. What peaceful purposes Ozone. We're talking about 500 tons of refined Uranium. Iraq has no nuclear power plants, no nuclear battleships, aircraft carriers, destroyers, submarines or nuclear anything else. Nor was Iraq building any. What they were doing was trying to refine yellow cake into plutonium, bomb grade plutonium for a nuclear weapon.

JW,you'll believe anybody that tells you anything that you want to hear and that's were I think that supporters of the war are getting a fair share into being concidered as breeders of fascism of this country seen by the rest of the world,because people here want to believe anything that intels them to think that America can do nothing wrong,well your wrong!

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Jaqueline
unregistered
posted May 12, 2004 05:48 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times,
it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness,
it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity,
it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness,
it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair,
we had everything before us, we had nothing before us,
we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way--in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only..."

"A Tale of Two Cities",
1859
Charles Dickens


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ozonefiller
Newflake

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posted May 12, 2004 05:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
AMEN!

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ozonefiller
Newflake

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posted May 12, 2004 06:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
So Ozone, how do you feel about terrorists beheading the American contractor in Iraq.
Is that the same, worse or not as bad as putting women's panties on the heads of terrorsts, putting a collar and leash on terrorists, arranging terrorists in embassassing positions, etc?

Is murdering a non combatant the same, worse or not as bad as embarrassing terrorist combatants?

jwhop


90% JW 90, we mistaken them into being insurgents JW, innocent men,women and children involved JW! Are you saying that it's OK for our troops to be like the GESTAPO onto these people JW?

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jwhop
Knowflake

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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted May 12, 2004 06:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So much for getting a straight answer out of you Ozone. One must assume that cold blooded murder is the same thing to you as embarrassing someone.

The rest of your posts don't speak to anything. Anyone can copy and paste a general whine by any of the whining groups that you seem to want to declare credible or knowledgeable.

The Middle East website you referenced is as bad as it gets for lying anti American content and why wouldn't it be. It's straight from the thugs who are oppressing the people in the region.

Thanks for helping me get it straight Ozone. In your mind everything is morally equivalent.

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ozonefiller
Newflake

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posted May 12, 2004 06:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You want to make this personally between you and I JW? Is that what your saying,so your such the hero to all? And you just try not to rile me up? So far you've been saying that I'm not an American,would you like to stand up to that plate,JW!

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pidaua
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From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
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posted May 12, 2004 06:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think Lioneye voiced what many of us are thinking.

Those pictures are terrible - but the fact is - you cannot identify the prisoners due to the facial coverings - well unless you can "place that dong"

On the other hand -you CAN identify Mr. Berg, you CAN see what happened to the 4 civilians that were blown up in the car and their bodies taken out and ripped apart.

Humiliation is terrible, but they WILL get over it - heck they probably don't even know the pics were taken and being used in other interrogations to show what "could" happen if the suspect doesn't spill the beans. Rape or torture is wrong and anyone implicated in those deeds needs some serious justice.

I didn't see the Arab community raise a Hue and Cry over our civilians and journalist being killed, tortured or raped.

Ozone, you still have yet to make any sense.

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Harpyr
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posted May 12, 2004 06:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just want to point out that what we might consider embarassing, some people find threatening to their immortal soul. I mean, compare how sexually repressed some of these Moslem cultures are with how our culture is in the western world. They are so mortified of sexuality that these prisoners would have probably rather died than endure that. Not that I'm defending the retaliation of beheading that man. I am utterly appalled and disturbed by such an atrocity.

I just think some people's perspective is alittle skewed if they think it was just some humiliation that took place in that prison. Culturally speaking, for those Iraqi prisoners death likely would have been better than sexual abuse. It's awful all around.

------------------
The role of religion is to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. :::P.T. Barnum

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ozonefiller
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posted May 12, 2004 07:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Pidaua, why don't you mind your own damn business?! I DIDN'T ASK YOU, NOW DID I?!

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TINK
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posted May 12, 2004 07:04 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Embarrassing?? Jwhop, certainly you wouldn't label what happened to these prisoners as just "embarrassing"? It seems to have gone a tad bit farther than that. And what's all this fuss about? Why the compare and contrast essay? Do we not hold ourselves to a higher standard than these terrosits? The truth is the military is a cold, hard, brutal force. As well it should be if it is to do its job properly. But it's a wild, bloodthirsty animal we've created to defend us and although it's in chains we need someone strong(and w/ a mind of his own) to hold the leash. It requires constant surveilence. And when we see things like this we need to put a stop to it pronto - not trot out the ole' "but they're our boys and the other guys do it too" excuse.

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Randall
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From: The Goober Galaxy
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posted May 12, 2004 07:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What Pid said. America was outraged at what was done. I don't see the Arab community apologizing for this or any other act their religious extremists take against our civilians. This is a war that will not be won with respect. They have no honor. We need to stop going to a knife fight with our hands tied behind our backs. If they hide in holy shrines, then bomb the holy shrines. Sorry, but it's time to start flexing American muscles.

------------------
"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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LibraSparkle
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posted May 12, 2004 07:05 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well said, Harpyr.

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Randall
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posted May 12, 2004 07:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is an open public Forum, Ozone. She doesn't need anyone's permission to respond to anything on here.

------------------
"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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jwhop
Knowflake

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posted May 12, 2004 08:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your comprehension of what you read seems faulty Ozone.

quote:
So far you've been saying that I'm not an American,would you like to stand up to that plate,JW


Please post right here any comment I made where I said you were not an American.

jwhop

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ozonefiller
Newflake

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posted May 12, 2004 08:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well maybe I don't like her snide, abusive, cruel, and petty mouth talking any crap to me, Randall!

What is it,is because YOUR a REPUBLICAN,that you not find a problem of having someone shove they're views down my throught and at the same time talk some crap to me?

If you wanna stress your views that way,why would you put them on a site like this Randall,why couldn't you put up some right wing political site or something?

What, you got your buddies all putting they're imput of hatred for the left and yet that's what makes up the majority in this site for?

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ozonefiller
Newflake

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posted May 12, 2004 08:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh yeah?

quote:
There are some people in America that wish our country ill and I'm beginning to form the conclusion you're one of them. Please tell me Ozone, just what is it you love about America. Certainly none of that ever shows up in your posts.

sound like fighting words to you? Please explain!

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ozonefiller
Newflake

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posted May 12, 2004 08:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
You sure you're ex-military as you claimed Ozone? I can't remember more slanderous indictments of the military forces of the US being made by anyone on this site.
Or are you speaking from personal experience Ozone. Are you one of those who screwed up and got your buddies killed, passed intel to the enemy or came home to become a drug dealer?

You're sounding a lot like John Kerry, a man who will never be President and a man almost universally despised by men and women who wear or ever wore the military uniform of the United States.

Bring back the draft. You sound like someone who needs to be run through basic training again.


REALLY?

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