posted May 12, 2004 08:21 PM            

You still want to step up to that plate JW?

posted May 12, 2004 08:32 PM            

I don't like the pictures personally. They look posed and they are definitely intended to embarrass the prisoners and perhaps be used on other prisoners to soften them up too.

Yes, we hold ourselves to a different standard and it's well we do but indicting the entire military, the entire country, the entire war for the actions of about 10 people is akin to saying Americans are murderers after looking at the murder statistics for Los Angeles County. It's absurd. Some people need to get a grip.

Some here can't seem to draw any distinction between terrorists beheading a non combatant and military personnel stripping prisoners and taking their picture. One seems to be just as bad as the other in some minds. Again, get a grip.

I agree with Randall, time for the gloves to come off. Fallujaha should be a pile of rubble now and Najaf too. Every mosque being used to store ammunition or arms or being used to fire at coalition troops should be leveled. Every person in Iraq with a weapon in their hands who is not part of the coalition force or Iraqi security force should be an immediate target wherever they happen to be.

posted May 12, 2004 11:11 PM            

Where did you see any story about Arabs being beaten to death in the US after 9/11. Please post the story.

Who wants us out, the terrorists, those who hope to seize power and bypass the election process that's coming where Iraqi citizens will decide their own course?

Inhuman actions by the United States? Removing a murderous tyrant is inhuman, freeing 26 million Iraqi citizens from murder, torture, rape and oppression is inhuman. I don't know where you're getting your definitions from alchemiest but certainly not from any dictionary I've ever seen.

I've heard the "you go fight the war" crap before. We have a professional voluntary military force. They do a great job using only the force necessary to do the job. Further, they take exceptional care and risk their own safety to not injure civilians. Yet you accuse them of inhuman acts. I reject your characterization of the military and by extension, the United States. Your moral equivalence doesn't fly in the real world. Perhaps in a fairy tale world but not here and not now.

Restore order in Iraq using whatever force is necessary to clear the terrorists out so free election can proceed on schedule.

jwhop

posted May 12, 2004 11:22 PM              

They never asked for help...so, who said they wanted ?
Why not pursue the true blamed for Sept. 11?
Why not " flexing American muscles " with the true terrorists?
Don't you think that the suffering caused to the these people by Sadam was not enough?

Lesson # 1 *to make war is sooo easy, yet, to bring Peace is being almost impossible...

posted May 12, 2004 11:43 PM              

also- http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/05/12/internat ional1832EDT0777.DTL

posted May 13, 2004 12:26 AM            

Look at the last three posts that he POSTED! All in favor of banning Ozone,say I!

posted May 13, 2004 01:17 AM            

quote:

---

Certainly TINK, deadly force is not being used against those detainees--with the exception of those who attack the guards of which there are several who have been killed by prisoners. You may think atrocities are being committed against the detainees but I most surely do not. The prisoners depicted in those pictures are in the most secure and isolated part of the prison, reserved for the most hard-core terrorists in captivity. They have not been tortured physically, not been denied medical treatment, food, water, shelter or anything else that threatens their life.

---

That's a lie,or were you there in Abu Ghraib doing the torturing of those detainees and got first hand experience and you would know for sure? Otherwise, you never been there,so what the hELL would you know?

quote:

---

I don't like the pictures personally. They look posed and they are definitely intended to embarrass the prisoners and perhaps be used on other prisoners to soften them up too.

---

That's a lie and we all know it! **** ! You probably creamed your pants everytime they flashed the pictures on TV!

quote:

---

Yes, we hold ourselves to a different standard and it's well we do but indicting the entire military, the entire country, the entire war for the actions of about 10 people is akin to saying Americans are murderers after looking at the murder statistics for Los Angeles County. It's absurd. Some people need to get a grip.

---

Yeah what's wrong with you,how can you not think that this kind of stuff goes on in the United States as well,get real already folks,killing people is NOT as bad as you are led to believe from some Pinko Leftist telling you this!

quote:

---

Some here can't seem to draw any distinction between terrorists beheading a non combatant and military personnel stripping prisoners and taking their picture. One seems to be just as bad as the other in some minds. Again, get a grip.

---

Again this is true,JW has some friends on the inside that gets to take some snap shots(for personal use) and sends them through his e-mail! They know what's going on!

quote:

---

I agree with Randall, time for the gloves to come off. Fallujaha should be a pile of rubble now and Najaf too. Every mosque being used to store ammunition or arms or being used to fire at coalition troops should be leveled. Every person in Iraq with a weapon in their hands who is not part of the coalition force or Iraqi security force should be an immediate target wherever they happen to be.

---

..and that's why we need to start waking up folks,getting ourselves back on track and start a new Arms Race! We'll take Bullsh*t from nobody that doesn't agree with Hitler's plan,right JW? Prove to those Muslims that they were right all along about Americans wanting to wage war on God! Your going to hELL JW!

quote:

---

I've read some absurd comments the terrorists are somehow fighting for their country. Nonsense, the Coalition is handing over civilian authority to the Iraqis in less than 2 months. Freedom isn't something they need to be fighting for. It's being given to them. The fighting is about power and who will have it in the new Iraq. Those who are attempting to thwart a representative government, establish an Iranian theocracy or a Syrian dictatorship must be crushed, totally crushed if there is to be a free Iraq.

---

...and that goes for any country,I mean any country, that dares to stands in our way,when we blightly intrude into there "Homeland" and lay down the rules from us for them to follow! And if that means the use of WMDs,then so be it!

This is all propaganda blaspheme, people!

DON'T LET THIS SONOFABITCH FOOL YOU!

posted May 13, 2004 02:50 AM            

What cruel, sick b*stards .
Indeed, you can't get much more barbaric than the filmed beheading of 26-year-old Nick Berg that splashed across a terrorist group's Web site yesterday.

posted May 13, 2004 07:29 AM              

Two men on a motorcycle pulled up next to Sikh woman stopped at red light, and yanked open her door, shouting, "This is what you get for what you've done to us!" Then, "I'm going to slash your throat!" The woman raised her elbows to protect her neck and hunched over. She was slashed in the head at least twice before the men, hearing a car approach, sped off. (San Diego Union-Tribune, 10/5)

In San Mateo, CA, a three year-old Sikh child was hit in the head by gasoline bomb thrown through the window of her home. The bomb did not explode. (San Francisco Chronicle, 9/18)

Five public high school students were sent home for their safety after a note was found at their school in Palmdale, CA threatening World Trade Center attacks would be avenged September 18 with a "massacre" with their names listed beneath. (AP, 9/20)

Two men attacked, robbed and cut the penis of an Indian man, calling him an Arab and saying, "to be an American you must be circumcised," in Fort Wayne, IN. (MSNBC.com 10/1)

FBI agents in Boston, mistaking her fiancé's last name with that of Mohammed Atta, dragged veiled Saudi woman down the corridor of Westin Copley Place Hotel, handcuffed and beat her leaving a six inch scratch across her face. She had accompanied her family on numerous visits to Boston for her father's medical treatment. Media reports of the incident did not refer to error or include a public apology by FBI. (Boston Globe, 9/16)

Muslims Condemn Attack on Sikh Family in New York
8/7/03
By Editor
Courtesy of CAIR
(Washington, D.C.) - The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today condemned an attack on a Sikh family in New York that was apparently motivated by religious or ethnic bias. The Washington-based Islamic civil rights and advocacy group said preventing bias-motivated attacks must be a "top priority" for American political and religious leaders.

According to media reports, three men attacked the family - a married couple and a relative - when they were returning to their Queens, N.Y., home on Sunday evening. The victims, who are immigrants from India, were allegedly punched, spit on and told "bin Laden family, go back to your country." One of the victims wore a Sikh turban, a religious head covering that has in the past prompted attacks by perpetrators who believe it is part of Islamic attire.

SEE: 3 Indians Attacked on Street and the Police Call It Bias

"Bigots and hate-mongers know no boundaries between people of different faiths or ethnicities," said CAIR Executive Director Nihad Awad. "Preventing and prosecuting bias-motivated crimes must be a top priority for our nation's political and religious leaders."

Awad noted that a Sikh man who may have been mistaken for an Arab was shot recently in Phoenix, Ariz. Just after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, another Sikh man in Arizona was murdered apparently because the killer mistakenly believed the victim was of Middle Eastern origin.

Since the beginning of this year, CAIR has received reports of physical assaults against Muslims or those perceived to be Muslim in California, Georgia, New Jersey, South Carolina and other states. One incident in Yorba Linda, Calif., left a Muslim teenager badly beaten by a group that allegedly included white supremacists. In Illinois, an explosive device destroyed a Muslim family's van. And just last month, a New Bedford, Mass., pizza delivery man was kidnapped, beaten and stabbed, apparently because his attackers thought he was Muslim. Two weeks ago, two Pakistani students were shot to death in the same county as the cross-burning. FBI investigators are looking into the incident to determine if bias was a motive.

Just last week, two teenagers were arrested for allegedly burning a cross outside a Maryland Islamic school and mosque. In response to that attack, a Sikh American group issued a news release to show solidarity with the American Muslim community.

SEE: http://www.sikhmediawatch.org/press/pressdetail.asp?pressid=48

The article I referred to in my last post is not included in this list, cause I have lost the link. I will post that on here as soon as I find it, probably some time this weekend since I have finals this week, Be patient.

Ozone, it's dudette

posted May 13, 2004 12:25 PM            

This is not a perfect world nor a perfect country. We can also find black on white hate crimes, white on black, black on brown..etc..so what we need to look at is if there is a higher number of cases AFTER an event or if it is still within the statistics.

People look for an excuse to cause harm- because they are SICK. There was a fair number of people worried that attacks on Catholic churches or priests would occur due to the pedophilia scandel. Where was the outrage on that? What about the destruction of Catholic churches?

What about the fear of a backlash on Jewish people due to the film "The Passion for Christ?" It was a member from the Anti-defamation league that stated people will attack regardless, but that nothing had occured that directly correlated to the movie...BUT I am sure we can find a story -if it was printed- concerning someone commiting a hate crime against a Jewish person while yelling "This is for killing Christ"

When will people figure it out? The media loves this stuff. They love whipping us into a frenzy - printing articles portraying a huge rise in hate crimes to sell papers when the true number of cases do not reflect a surge. That "truth" doesn't sell papers. Manipulation of the truth does tug on the heart-strings though.

People talk of peace as though everyone in this world is enlightened. Well that is just impossible. Humans have very primal instincts, we are very much like our animal counterparts. Ever watch a troop of Chimpanzees? Ever see how they kill their enemies young? Ever see a group of Lions where a new males comes into the pride and kills his enemies offspring? It all boils down to Food, Territory, Values and Idealogy (the last two directly affect humans)

The Iraqis did ask for help - not every single one of them (and I am sure there are some here that think we should have received a formal declaration of help from every last Iraqi citizen), but they sure are benefiting from their new freedom.

Yes there will be problems, but at least they are getting their country back to some type of normalcy. They can vote, go to school, shop and work without worry of being tortured by Saddam (and PLEASE do not be a smart alec and say "No..they are just being tortured by the meanie Americans")

If we apply the philosophy "Well they didn't ask for help anyway", then we are becoming apathetic. Do you help your neighbor in need? Would you turn your back on a child being beaten because they didn't ask for help?

posted May 13, 2004 12:57 PM            

No need to search for the article you were referencing. You've made your point that there was a backlash here for Muslims or some thought to be Muslims, after 9/11.

I think you would find almost universal condemnation for targeting innocent Muslims in America for terrorists activities here or elsewhere.

One of the references you posted, the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) is a problem however. This group is heavily involved in a lot more than promoting Islamic relations with America and Americans. This is what I found about this group and because it's there on the record, I wouldn't take anything they have to say at face value.
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/394

The Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations presents itself as just another civil-rights group.

" CAIR is something quite different. For starters, it's on the wrong side in the war on terrorism. One indication came in October 1998, when the group demanded the removal of a Los Angeles billboard describing Osama bin Laden as "the sworn enemy," finding this depiction "offensive to Muslims.

"The same year, CAIR denied bin Laden's responsibility for the twin East African embassy bombings. As Hooper saw it, those explosions resulted from some vague "misunderstandings of both sides." (A New York court, however, blamed bin Laden's side alone for the embassy blasts.

)In 2001, CAIR denied his culpability for the Sept. 11 massacre, saying only that "if [note the "if"] Osama bin Laden was behind it, we condemn him by name." (Only in December was CAIR finally embarrassed into acknowledging his role.)

CAIR consistently defends other militant Islamic terrorists too. The conviction of the perpetrators of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing it deemed "a travesty of justice." The conviction of Omar Abdel Rahman, the blind sheikh who planned to blow up New York City landmarks, it called a "hate crime.

" The extradition order for suspected Hamas terrorist Mousa Abu Marook it labeled "anti-Islamic" and "anti-American."Not surprisingly, CAIR also backs those who finance terrorism. When President Bush closed the Holy Land Foundation in December for collecting money he said was "used to support the Hamas terror organization," CAIR decried his action as "unjust" and "disturbing.

"CAIR even includes at least one person associated with terrorism in its own ranks. On Feb. 2, 1995, U.S. Attorney Mary Jo White named Siraj Wahhaj as one of the "unindicted persons who may be alleged as co-conspirators" in the attempt to blow up New York City monuments. Yet CAIR deems him "one of the most respected Muslim leaders in America" and includes him on its advisory board.

For these and other reasons, the FBI's former chief of counterterrorism, Steven Pomerantz, concludes that "CAIR, its leaders and its activities effectively give aid to international terrorist groups."Nor is terrorism the only disturbing aspect of CAIR's record.

Other problems include:Intimidating moderate Muslims. In at least two cases (Hisham Kabbani and Khalid Durán), CAIR has defamed moderate Muslims who reject its extremist agenda, leading to death threats against them.

Embracing murderers. CAIR responded to the arrest and conviction of Jamil Al-Amin (the former H. Rap Brown) by praising him, raising funds for him and then denying his guilt after his conviction for the murder of an Atlanta policeman.

Likewise with Ahmad Adnan Chaudhry of San Bernardino, Calif.: Disregarding his conviction for attempting murder, CAIR declared him "innocent" and set up a defense fund for him.

Promoting anti-Semitism. The head of CAIR's Los Angeles office, Hussam Ayloush, routinely uses the term "zionazi" when referring to Israelis. CAIR co-hosted an event in May 1998 at which an Egyptian militant Islamic leader, Wagdi Ghunaym, called Jews the "descendants of the apes.

"Aggressive ambitions. As reported by the San Ramon Valley Herald, CAIR Chairman Omar M. Ahmad told a crowd of California Muslims in July 1998, "Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran . . . should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth.
**Note, Islamic religious extremism isn't going to be tolerated here.

"CAIR's real record is one of extremism. North American Muslims themselves are beginning to discover - and the government, leading media, churches, and businesses should follow - that CAIR represents not the noble civilization of Islam but an aggressive and radical strain similar to that which led to the suicide hijackings last September.