posted December 26, 2007 12:25 PM            

Of course, it's just possible...barely, that whoever said this is grossly ignorant.
My bet is on the total lie though since that's what some do best.

quote:

---

Healthcare (we have some of the worlds best hospitals, equipment and professionals but these are inaccessible to a great percentage of our population);....Mannu

---

Utter horseshiiiit!!! US law requires treatment of everyone...anyone who needs medical care....whether or not they can pay for it.

posted December 27, 2007 06:44 PM              

Absolutely it happens. I've had two dislocated ribs for 5 years now. The company I was working for when it happened, told me to fill out Workman's Comp papers..then became my enemy when their insurance company told them to. They decided to fight it and deny that I was injured.

They knew that with no job because of the injury and an average of 3 years for a Workman's Comp Case to get through the courts, it was highly unlikely I'd be able to go without working for long (which would destroy my case. Yay!)

They were right, my family became semi-homeless and I had to go back to work to keep things right.

Sure enough, my case was dismissed.

No insurance, a workman's comp case on my insurance record. Guess who wasn't a very attractive commodity in the labor market anymore? So guess who went to the doctors with no money..and no insurance?

Here's what they told me:

One doctor called it "muscle strain." (Presciption? Vicodin..my cost.)

Another referred to "trigger points."
(Absolutely, trigger points brought about by an underlying problem..dislocated ribs.)
(Prescription? A saline and lidocaine injection on the spot. Lasted 3 hours. The doctor's visit took 2.5.)

A third doctor said that there was a "build up of nitrogen bubbles in my muscle tissue" and that it was causing my intense pain.
(Prescription? Vicodin.)

But no docs..it's dislocated ribs! My son is even able to pop them in occasionally! Come on guys!

Ohhh I've told them. But they "tut tut" me and go on about their mindless experiments for the purpose of making sure the billing works out right when they try to collect. (Which really means sell the debt to a collection agency.)

The only correct diagnoses I've received came from a chiropractor in the States, and 2 separate physicians in Mexico. They all three knew what the problem was after a brief examination, performing X-Rays to be sure (doctors..chiropractor took them beforehand.)

It's money man. And there is ALWAYS a way around the laws. And there is always a reasonable excuse for sending someone away without proper medical care.

Your arguments are based on a false perception, created by your absolute isolation from the experiences that you claim to know about. You don't. It's almost glaringly obvious that you're older..probably ex-military, I'd venture a guess (correct or not) that you may have even served your country in conflict. Here's a salute if that's the case. I love my country too. But it isn't like it was anymore. It's not strong, and talking about its "strong" GDP is like bragging about our increased tendency toward greedy behavior. We're not producing more, we're just figuring out new ways to make more profit.

What's really hard, is that I don't think you have any idea of what an out-of-touch loudspeaker for anachronistic ignorance you are...very often JW.

And I mean it's REALLY sad..because you're so intelligent and well informed about so many other things. You're just yelling now...nothing intelligible, just yelling.

And your words, although they may speak for many others...sound really silly because they are so out of touch with the way things are.

(Different points of view taken into account. Libra here..)

Roar away.

posted December 28, 2007 12:16 AM            

Normal procedures for a doctor (not a chiropractor) would be to prescribe pain killers, muscle relaxants, etc. Generally, if a manual manipulation is to be attempted, it should occur soon after the displacement (within 6 hours) to avoid shock. After that time, you generally have to "wait" it out. Ie, apply heat and/or ice and avoid exertion. It takes at least 6 weeks for ligaments to heal up, etc. And then you can begin your physical therapy, usually a simple at home exercise program designed to restrengthen the area or even slowly getting back into your old program. I'm sure you know all this. Bless the net even if your doctors suck and all.

But I can't imagine how you'd stand dislocated ribs for 5 years, especially as this comes with breathing difficulties, severe pain, possible visible deformities, general tenderness to the area often accompanied by swelling and/or bruising, and a host of other serious symptoms.

Are you sure you're not experiencing a subluxation? Chiropractic treatment might be able to help, as might massage therapy esp. if these two are joined. But unless you have a rare insurance company who covers these treatments, the cost will be out of pocket. MDs just don't know how to do these things. That's why we have chiros and LMTS. I really don't know what you'd expect an MD to do about this besides prescribing meds and rest for something that isn't very serious (ie, life threatening). This is why people seek out chiros and LMTs and many doctors will even suggest one or two of those options to people experiencing long term symptoms, possibly even physical therapy. Surgery for this problem is rare and only generally used when there is serious damage to tendons and ligaments due to the dislocation. People who require surgery wouldn't be able to function at all due to the excruciating pain they'd be in constantly, plus other complications.

posted December 28, 2007 04:27 AM            

Docs rely on our information and a list of our symptoms. Still, I have had to deal with some pretty incompetent human beings in the med profession. I had one nurse, with my chart in hand, ask me the same question again and again. I pointed to my chart and said "I'm here for this and have been for the last 3 months".

The worst insurance I had was with a veterinary diagnostic corporation. I was sick as hell and they sent me to what amounted to a free clinic. There was at least a 4 hour wait and the waiting room was jammed with people. I left.

The best insurance has been what I have now with the Military. Still, I don't count on the Military docs to be completely on par so I go in with all my relevant information, med file in hand and I always make copies to take to the next place.

We have to remember that the medical staff is also made up of human beings. They are at the mercy of some of the worst insurance companies that always screw with them on payments.

Also.. ALWAYS get a second or third opinion. Had I not followed that advice I would have ended up with a total hysterectomy by the first specialist I saw for my fibroid. He was convinced, without doing any tests, that I had cancer and would need immediate surgery followed with chemo or radiation. He was 100% wrong.

posted December 28, 2007 10:36 AM            

The issue about correct diagnosis is a different issue.

The issue over who pays and how much they will pay for a particular procedure is also a different issue.

Throwing Workman's Comp into the argument is a red herring.

The statements on this thread are that there are those in the US who cannot access healthcare. Even those here illegally have access to necessary medical treatment. Everyone in the US has access to necessary medical treatment....AS A MATTER OF LAW.

This leads me to believe there are those who do not know the difference between healthcare and health insurance.

posted December 28, 2007 01:02 PM              

quote:

---

This leads me to believe there are those who do not know the difference between healthcare and health insurance.

---

Agreed. Some do not. My point is that heathcare is unduly influenced by heath insurance, sometimes to the detriment of the patient.

quote:

---

The issue about correct diagnosis is a different issue.

---

No, it's not. Unfortunately, its very often the crux of the problem. The financial interests of the insurance company should play no serious part in a medical diagnosis. If a doctor believes a procedure is in the best interest of a patient and the insurance company disagrees, guess who wins?

posted December 28, 2007 04:51 PM              

Absolutely my friend, the fact that the law is there should be an assurance to us all. But greed has been finding loopholes since there have been laws. Although to some extent I have to agree with TINK that the doctors hands are tied. What's sad, is that they can't even really give me a proper diagnosis without opening themselves and the hospital up to liabilities if the insurance company finds a way to worm out of the debt.

Eleanore: Yea..5 years now. That old song by the Police - Every Breath You Take has an entirely different meaning for me anymore. I go through approximately a case and a half to two cases of beer per week (muscle relaxant and liver eradicator) and well..a bunch of medicinal herb. I've stopped asking for back rubs anymore. Everyone's tired of it..including me. I try to take hot showers in the morning, avoid taking any meds til at least NOON-1PM so I can gauge my dependency..see if I need to take a vacation. (Which I've had to do twice now with the beer.)

I've only heard one person ever explain correctly how this works with people that are in severe pain. (Montel Williams) Basically, I'm not high, or drunk mentally. (Yes coordination suffers with beer, I won't drive after drinking.) It takes me a certain dosage to get to "normal."

A really good indicator of this, is when my son manages to pop both ribs in. (It's very difficult, one is under my shoulder blade.) As soon as the ribs are in, the high/drunk effect kicks in instantly and I am REALLY high then. But while the ribs are out..I'm just trying to get to normal. Strange really..it should be noted that pain provides all sorts of mental benefits, including resistance to other pain. I had my jaw dislocated a couple of years back, and it was actually a relief until it got popped back in!

Anyhow, thanks for your concern. I'll get along. Pain and I are old friends come a looong way together. We'll make it.

posted December 29, 2007 11:21 AM            

Insurance company personnal or government bureaucrats...neither of whom are members of the medical profession do get involved in limiting medical procedures. They also get the hell sued out of themselves in civil courts.

Most of the disagreements come over medical procedures or drugs which are non standard treatments for specific injuries of diseases.

posted December 29, 2007 06:08 PM              

Who do they get sued by? And how does that work out? Do most dirt poor people who can't afford medical insurance have the money, time or resources to fight that sort of litigation battle?

What about hospitals and insurance companies..do you think they have those sorts of resources? I mean money for lawyers, and the ability to go to court for years without losing their job..or starving to death. I bet they do.

I'm willing to bet David gets stomped to a pulp by Goliath in the court system, PARTICULARLY since civil litigation puts the burden of proof on the plaintiff..and the defendant has all of the evidence.

daf

P.S. Your faith in the system is admirable..if not waaaay out of touch.

You don't trust politicians, bureaucrats or government agencies but claim that:

1. the legal system (from whence come politicians)
2. writing letters to our politicians and
3. choosing from among various politicians
at election time

will save us all..

I couldn't have done a better job of summing up the flaw in your philosophy if I'd tried.

I'm guessing that you are in the uncomfortable position of having too many "things" tied up in the current establishment to despise it thoroughly, as you probably would if it weren't for your other interests in its preservation. Money, property..whatever. I would imagine that material success within the system would boost your faith in its tenets..having succeeded within the lines it had drawn out for you. Congratulations.

It's coming soon to a point where you're going to have to make a choice. Not between your ideology and your things. No your things are yours..of course. No you're going to have to realize that the system is only working on figuring out how to get more of everyone's things..including yours. The system ITSELF is the problem. Supporting it AND hating it at the same time just eats away at your overall credibility. A shame when you're such an intelligent, articulate and powerful voice for change.

I honestly believe that you've already realized that things need to change. The problem is, you're still very sure that it can be resolved within the system.

I don't completely disagree, but first..the system, and it's way of operating and choosing leaders..needs to be revamped. We need to discard this stupid two party political process which is only one-party away from a communist election.

(Oh I'm sorry..make it the occasional 3 when we need to dilute the vote. Here's a trivia question: what percentage of Congressman have been Independents? It's a tiny fraction of a percent in the last 100 years.)

posted December 29, 2007 11:00 PM              

Yes, I understand medical doctors make mistakes. Upon close inspection, the god-like veneer soon crumbles.

quote:

---

Insurance company personnal or government bureaucrats...neither of whom are members of the medical profession do get involved in limiting medical procedures. They also get the hell sued out of themselves in civil courts.

---

Oh but I beg to differ. Insurance company personnal are most definitely made up, in part, of members of the medical proffesion. In fact, it is these enlightened ones who decide whether a procedure is medically (read financially) warrented. And the doctors, answerable to a hospital's board of directors (read Mammon), who are consequently put in that ethically precarious position of altering their diagnosis or recommendation based on the advice of the insurance company.

posted January 01, 2008 05:36 AM            

I didn't have horrendous experience with health insurance so far because I didn't have any claims so far. But of late it was a hassle when I filed a claim for my car accident. I had to go to the local insurance office first. Get an initial estimate. Cost cutting negotiations from the officer like "no need to replace bumper, it can be patched". etc...
Too much hassle and bickering. And after six months post fix, I realize that the bumper started sticking out. Now I have to go back to the body shop and check if they guarantee their work. I heard that the only time the guarantee is available is if I went to a preferred body shop of the insurance company. Before it was :
-Turn in your car in to the body shop on an appointed date,
-rent a car (all paid for ofcourse) and
-pick up your car after repair

Now I noticed that I am spending more personal time, the insurance premium has not gone down, and the hands of the body shop people are tied. They will not suggest whats best for car but what's best for these insurance companies.

==========================

Tink and I'm glad that you noticed a change in me. Osho is awesome. He complements me because he is firey. I need more of fire as I am watery a lot per my horoscope LOL

daf, jwhop - great observations. sorry was on vacation and need to collect my mind where I was. Later.

posted January 02, 2008 11:48 AM            

You sure have a lot of issues for someone who disparages voting. Why the hell should anyone listen to a word you have to say....when you refuse to lift you smallest finger to elect those to office who are dedicated to the improvements you espouse?

I'm not a big fan of anarchy.

You could have gone to John Edwards...a tort lawyer...ambulance chaser...who would have filed a lawsuit on your behalf...for about 35% of whatever the settlement happened to be.

If you don't want attorneys in Congress...then you should sure as hell stop voting for them...not just you but everyone.

TINK, sure insurance companies have some physicians on staff or on retainer but most rejections of treatment procedures are made by non medically trained personnel...from a list of "covered" injuries or diseases and from a list of "medically approved" treatment options. If your injury, disease or treatment option isn't there..found on the list(s)...you get an automatic rejection notice.

posted January 02, 2008 01:58 PM              

quote:

---

TINK, sure insurance companies have some physicians on staff or on retainer but most rejections of treatment procedutes are made by non medically trained personnel...from a list of "covered" injuries or diseases and from a list of "medically approved" treatment options. If your injury, disease or treatment option isn't there..found on the list(s)...you get an automatic rejection notice.

---

what can i say? apparently we've had vastly dissimiliar experiences.

my last experience - a kind letter from my insurance company denying payment for a cerebral angiogram. the insurance company felt it would be imprudent to do the procedure now and would prefer to wait another 6 or so weeks when results would more likely be forthcoming. in other words, why pay for a very expensive procedure twice? according to the insurance company, a "physician" made the call. makes sense if money alone is the bottom line. nevermind that the neurologist, primary care physician and several others all felt differently.

oh and ... needless to say i didn't drop it

posted January 03, 2008 01:06 PM            

quote:

---

oh and ... needless to say i didn't drop it....

---

Well, I didn't expect you would drop the claim or fail to pursue your options with the insurance company.

So.....did they cave in and pay for the procedure anyway? Or did they just stall until the date was past which would require them to pay for 2 procedures?

posted January 03, 2008 01:53 PM              

It is a typical tactic of those who have no actual points in favor of their position to resort to name calling. The fact that you believe it to be so does not make it so.

I'm afraid it'll require something more than a few mudslung treats like "anarchy" and "guru" to back your claims that justice can be achieved by most Americans, at practical cost of time and money..within the current system. It'll require a damned good argument, which, after examining the facts myself, I honestly don't believe you'll find. There isn't a story of success within this system that doesn't seem to defy the odds. That's sad.

So what else do you have? I mean conceding the fact that I'm a poopy butt and that I pick my boogers..

posted January 04, 2008 12:18 PM            

How far do I have to go to spell it all out for you?

There is an army of ambulance chasing lawyers, tort lawyers..out there who will take cases...cases they believe have merit...and are therefore winnable. They will take those cases on a contingent fee basis.

Yes TINK, the old...I'm totally in your hands so you better pray nothing bad happens to me...ploy.

posted January 12, 2008 08:02 AM              

"Indian employers, especially the large employers, do continue, despite their views that they do not rely on the caste factor for employment decisions, to have preconceptions or stereotypes about applicants in the labour market that reinforce caste as a source of employment discrimination," Newman said."

can u tell me what u mean by " large employers " ?
the largest employer in India is the indian Railways, owned by the Govt.
they have a 50 % reservation for Lower castes.
infact , like in lot of third world countries, most economic and industrial sectors comprise of companies, industries and organisations owned and controlled by the government.
mining, transport, communiations, banking, infrastructure , u name it.
all these govt, outfits have a 50 % reservation for lower castes as prescribed by the first Plan.

the Largest Employer in India is the indian Governmet that practices a preferntial policy towards lower castes as an attempt to bridge the economic gap caused by the caste system
this economic gap come into being in the last 300 years only, when we were a British Colony.

as for the private sector, meaning industries and offices not owned by the govt.
its a jungle and only the fittest survive.
only someone with the ability to do the job, not merely the required qualification survives.

90 % of school educational facilities are either owned or heavily sponsored by the Indian Govt.
which means every child irrespective of caste or even mental faculties has the same resources.
when it comes to college , the graduate level of college education is also heavily government sponsored so the same college facilities are available irrespective of caste.
however when u come to the post - grad levels, all management , science and tech institutes and the like that really are the requisite of any profession have a 50 % compulsory quota for lower castes.
do u honestly believe that any " Large Employer " in a third world economy with economic growth as its primary objective has any other rewason for business except " Profits"
no one is in business to live their prejudiced caste ideas.
everyone from the clerk in a smal office to the employers have money on their mind.
so the requisite for any sane employer when it comes to employing you is how much cash u can generate for him. Period.

do try to find which large employers ur sources are referring too.

posted January 12, 2008 08:04 AM              

where does MY crap come from

... wipes tears..

are u really asking that question, after all the pearls u post ?
the scandal made it to newspapers but was quickly snuffed.
the prosecutor was a vietnam veteran, republican senator ,who watched the splinching of the legal system.

his book about this case is still available on amazon.com
he has his own website
he wrote a book about the trial represented by him, where a man , erstwhile child paedophile victim , one of those 500000 missing, got away with a million dollars of taxpayer money without the case being heard.

the defendents ? a paedophile ring involving political perverts all the way to the white house, a local kingpin, and country music celebrities in nexus with them.
the book " The Franklin Cover up " tells the story ur " Free Media " failed to do so.
it was the only bestseller that didnt get the new york times list

this crap is the fact u dont know.
why not post some " Pearls " on his website telling him he's scum.

Dr. Pamela Boyd , a psychologist practising in Texas is another source that my crap comes from.

a college friend of mine who is one of her asistants told me how Dr. Pamela has helped to psychologically rehabilitate dozens of mind - control victims, the children who were programmed by CIA.

u can get her number from Information i guess.
call her and ask her if all this is true.
or send an email cussing her unpatriotism.

if are interested there is alot on the net about the " Franklin Credit Union " litigation.
it involved embezzlement of 40 million dollars.
the probe was infact ordered by the Nebraska legislature.
and it is fact not crap that an " accused " walked off with a million dollars

u can easily use government resources to check all this info, if u dont trust the internet.
the accused in this litigation also confessed to kidnapping children for CIA's mind control experiments, one of them is now a known secret CIA operative.

his mother has her own site , to find her missing son

http://www.johnnygosch.com/

posted January 12, 2008 10:53 AM            

quote:

---

BTW venusdeindia, where is the crap you're posting coming from. I'd like to see the source.....for the biggest scandal in the history of the United States.

---

quote:

---

u , JW dont want think u r a global citizen, but her pain is shared by the mothers of all those 500000 kids who disappear in ur country every year.

---

posted January 14, 2008 02:20 AM              

wow, i cant believe i actually spent all that energy to convince someone who is prejudiced about a problem , faced by a country not yet marked on his passport

okay, how do u define the caste system ?

when it WAS alive and kicking lower castes were not allowed to visit places of worship of the higher castes.

today they do , in the bigger towns and metros ,
as far as smaller towns and villages are concerned they now have their own places of worship.

when it WAS alive and kicking the lower castes were not allowed education, or employment in a field other than what was decided for them by the upper castes.

when it WAS alive and kicking, even then they had economic schemes by benevolent upper caste members who didnt share the nutty philosophy of their counterparts.

one thing every member on this board should learn from is Denial of what is staring U in the face.

not to mention an All- Knowing Omnipotence about issues far from ur range of uh.. mental capacity, since all ur posts are about is recycled junk coming from an inbuilt brain facility of denial.

take a BOW buddy

and for statistics, i have run out of masochism to do UR research.

i saw a CNN special on Oprah on the same .and most websites peg the number at betwen 500000 to 800000.

as for official statistics , can u really be that Naive

BTW which official source do u get ur numbers for caste victims from ???

also like i said the litigation that unveiled this paedophile ring was a matter of record, that is one thing u should be able to find out easily.
that one of the accused was paid a Million dollars of tax payer green, because he was accusing a lot of big names of crimes u cant talk about on cable TV
and all money was paid to an accused without the case the case being argued

all this is a matter of public record, that unfortunately u have to leave ur terminal to verify.

i mentioned a shrink who has helped childern programmed by the CIA, in Texas.
i even gave her name, why not find her number and call her ?
are u chained to ur terminal ?

posted January 14, 2008 02:22 AM              

unless u suffer from an inferiority complex there are multiplee ways to interpert the statement that U think is pointing fingers at ur country.

i would love to have a thread on the issues faced by my country.
but since the few indians on this board are not at present living in India there is not much they can contribute or even indentify with the issues.

also, can u assure me such a discussion would have contributions from other members for no reason other than Global Unity ?

or that no posts would be made that dont serve the purpose of discussion but vindiction and self- righteousness ?

that people would actually empathise and offer their point of views, not judgemental personal remarks on an issue concerning my country.

that such a discussion would have productive , intellectual insights rather than degraded filthy personal cat fights ?

THAT is the only reason to post on any of UR problems, A complete lack of choice

posted January 14, 2008 02:34 AM              

that is UR Conclusion, arrived at based on prejudice

just like u never uh.. hinted that its in my interests to fight battles i cant win.

or that I and all Indians are Third world barbarians not fit to post anything on any matter concerning ur country

or that u had assumed that mannu is not an american citizen

u can convince urself that i gain psychotic pleasure by pointing fingers ,to insulate ur view of reality.

that is one thing u most clearly communicate thru every single of ur posts , in response to every single member.

u can deny God does not exist even when he is speaking u .

we all have the convenience of acting like the child who throws a fit when his parents tell him Santa aint real.