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Author Topic:   About suicide
Shulia
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posted September 23, 2017 03:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Shulia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok sorry to post again a very unpleasant topic... but its difficult to find information about those things and I would like to know about it.
In most of religions there is big punishments for people who kill themselves. I believe there must be a reason why all religions say the same about it.
But on the other side I find it a very uncompasionate way to see it and I don't understand it.
Because usually people who does it are really good people who falls into deep depression and doesn't see a way out.
Why would God punish that?
It makes sense to me that that person would just encarnate again and have the same problem he or she was trying to scape from.
Because probably there was a lesson behind that problem.
But more than that... why to punish that soul?

Does anyone knows about it?

Also, what may be the bad karma for it?

Thanks a lot in advance and sorry for the sad topic

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PixieJane
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posted September 23, 2017 10:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, there is a reason why it's so common to say it will be punished: because it's about exploiting people. No cattle rancher wants the cows to be able to end themselves when they decide to for themselves, that's to be the choice of the ranchers that enslave the cattle. Only in this case the cattle are human beings. Even when the people of the religions aren't the ranchers, they serve the rulers, or are eliminated (especially historically, which means those shaped modern religions in our more enlightened times, and therefore such harmful and false messages linger).

There is a bit more to it than that...many want convenience, and suicide is often inconvenient, and may make people feel bad. People say that those who commit suicide are selfish, but I think it's more likely that those who say that are the selfish ones who didn't want to have to think about what happened, didn't want the pain and guilt, but also didn't want to help and keep on pretending things were fine. Killing one's self does not strike me as a selfish thing to do unless one is in incredible pain, in which case expecting someone to continue to exist in agony for your own comfort strikes me as more selfish still.

And then there's the effect where people spout whatever they think will get them approval (including the most likes on the internet). They don't actually care about what they're saying, only how people react to it, and that encourages them to follow the standard line. After all, the dead can't give them a thumbs up, while those who dealt with a suicide can give them a thumbs down.

(It's like how many thoughtlessly ask about when someone is having children, heedless as to whether such a person cannot or has experienced miscarriage and the like. The person asking doesn't really care, just to seem like caring, and will become extremely uncomfortable to learn that they have caused someone distress by bringing this up, because they weren't thinking when they spoke, only saying what they thought they should say like a robot for the likes.)

It's like how arbitrary lots of things are depending on whether you do them for yourself or your masters (the state, etc). Kill for your gang colors and you're branded a villain, but kill for your nation's colors and you're a hero with parades, as just one example. Generally speaking, anything you do for yourself is evil, but at the same time you're to be obligated to do the same type of deeds that are then celebrated when the ranchers who own people command that they be done, including in actions that result in the end of your life for your masters (though it will be phrased as "for your nation" or "God" or some such). Technically, even the elderly aren't allowed to kill themselves to spare themselves pain and their families money, because there's money to be made (meanwhile, hospitals and hospices are notorious for abuse to the elderly in their last days, as long as they keep cashing in on that matter, getting some of that Rancher actions for themselves).

However, actual NDEs don't show that those who commit suicide are especially prone to negative NDE's, and may face lots of compassion in the spirit world than they ever got here. Sure, people looking to confirm their own biases will cherry pick the data to make it appear otherwise, but those without an axe to grind (such as the IANDS) don't show a difference. In other words, it's a lie that suicide means punishment.

NOTE: I don't mean to promote suicide, and though I strongly believe doctor assisted suicide should be available (but not encouraged) I'd want safeguards because plenty of other selfish people would gladly kill off their elderly parents if they could for their own selfish benefits. We humans are not a pleasant species, but we have the most amazing ability to rationalize all that we do to make it appear righteous somehow, and typically even believe our own BS.

ETA: I just looked up a music vid...I couldn't recall the name of the song, but luckily it was the first choice meaning this song is frequently looked for! Though a bit extreme, it touches on some of what I said above, though this poor guy isn't allowed to die:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM8bTdBs-cw

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Randall
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posted September 24, 2017 11:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Karma certainly complicates the discussion.

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Lexxigramer
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posted October 02, 2017 06:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lexxigramer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shulia
Oh no; not an unpleasant topic;
just a very human one folks are reluctant to talk about.
As a person who has attempted it and thinks about it every day;
I understand muchly the reasons and motivations of it all.
The reasons and motives are many to say the least.
I will try and get back to these topic as soon as possible.
I do not view suicide as anything bad;
at least not anything worthy of punishment from anything.
I am an Atheist;
so no God.
I have had NDEs under a few circumstances.
No negatives experienced.

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Lexxigramer
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posted October 02, 2017 06:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lexxigramer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
PixieJane
Love your reply!
Will try and get back soon to comment!

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Lexxigramer
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posted October 02, 2017 06:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lexxigramer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
Karma certainly complicates the discussion.

I think perhaps in the case of murder suicide; or unintentional murder suicide too;
like when someone kills themselves in such a way that kills or injuries others in the process.

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mirage29
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posted October 09, 2017 03:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mirage29     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shulia ...

I had a coworker (long ago) whose brother had committed suicide. She knew I was a Christian who is still in touch with Humanity.
.. She shared that a minister had told her that her brother went to hell. That is sooo narrow-Hearted, uncaring, unchristian, and repulsive.

I Believe in God... and refuse to think that the God I know would be so cruel... He Knows us. He Understands our frailties, and that those souls are greeted with Love and Compassion.

He also sends Comforting spirits (and human angels), to stand with us and help Heal the Wounds of those who are left behind...

Pixie-Jane... ALWAYS very well-spoken

Lexxi ... You ARE a VERY courageous soul. Don't give up hope. You never know when medical innovations explode with sudden answers that will bring miracle cures for your body (and your hubby's).

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Randall
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posted October 14, 2017 12:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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Randall
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posted October 15, 2017 06:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You are always very supportive, mirage.

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Randall
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posted October 16, 2017 10:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mirage29:
Shulia ...

I had a coworker (long ago) whose brother had committed suicide. She knew I was a Christian who is still in touch with Humanity.
.. She shared that a minister had told her that her brother went to hell. That is sooo narrow-Hearted, uncaring, unchristian, and repulsive.

I Believe in God... and refuse to think that the God I know would be so cruel... He Knows us. He Understands our frailties, and that those souls are greeted with Love and Compassion.

He also sends Comforting spirits (and human angels), to stand with us and help Heal the Wounds of those who are left behind...

Pixie-Jane... ALWAYS very well-spoken

Lexxi ... You ARE a VERY courageous soul. Don't give up hope. You never know when medical innovations explode with sudden answers that will bring miracle cures for your body (and your hubby's).


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Randall
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posted October 16, 2017 10:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lexxigramer:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Randall:
[b]Karma certainly complicates the discussion.


I think perhaps in the case of murder suicide; or unintentional murder suicide too;
like when someone kills themselves in such a way that kills or injuries others in the process.[/B][/QUOTE]

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Gundahar
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posted October 19, 2017 05:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gundahar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Im honestly afraid that there might be a punishment, that stopped me from killing myself a while ago, something broken my spirit.
Last week i was in a coma from a bad case of septicemia that damaged one of my kidneys. I came back and now im in the hospital. I still sufer a great deal inside, i wished i did not come back, but in the same time in happy that i am alive.

Its an interesting subject, i will come back with a deeper reply.

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mirage29
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posted October 19, 2017 04:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mirage29     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
{{Gundahar }} I'm glad you pulled through!!

You might be feeling a kind of natural shock or boomerang of emotions (hang-over) from that extreme experience. You need to be gentle on yourself and allow these to process.

Quite shocking to suddenly be subjected to thinking you're dying. Shifts life into a new perspective...

Plus, those astral skies have felt a bit stifling for a while, too...

You talked about your kidneys...

Venus just entered Libra around the time your kidney had a problem.

Venus Libra ...
Libra is kidneys.

Where is your asteroid 8311 Zhangdaning in your chart?
What is it doing?

{{{BTW, You don't have to look it up, if you don't want to. I'm 'making conversation' with you here.}}}

Get some good rest.... Be gentle with yourself.

Hoping you'll feel better soon...

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Lexxigramer
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posted October 19, 2017 11:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lexxigramer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
mirage29 Agreed.
Never know what cures will come.

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Lexxigramer
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posted October 19, 2017 11:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lexxigramer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Gundahar {{{hugs}}}

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Lexxigramer
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posted October 19, 2017 11:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lexxigramer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Randall.

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Gundahar
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posted October 20, 2017 08:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gundahar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you both for the good thoughts, this was comforting

I am sure i suffer from depression, induced by my own expectations of people and events, my problem is that i care too much and tend to be very selfless, when i love, i love with all my being, to the point i put my life on a plate for that someone. Its nobody's fault but mine, i was always a crazy optimist and still am, its weird to have depression and still feel love and smile naturally. Im a Cancer with Leo ASC, but this was not a problem, i could control my emotions in the past, until i got into drugs with the people i grew up with, they did quit but i was hooked up and i was so hardly judged by everyone to the point i broke in shame and regret, the people i loved the most hurt me the worst. And this was a shock for me. I isolated myself for a while. And then my burnout started. I got dermatitis, things on my skin, teeth problems and many more. I did quit the drugs, i went trough 2 withdrawals alone, and trough depression also alone. I know i should have asked for help. But i was too lost, to the point i depersonalized. This coma changed something in my core and im rediscovering myself and the purpose of life. By no means im cured, but its better than before. I had an interesting experience in my coma, i woke after a few days, had amnesia, i spoke latin fluently, i could play guitar, i talked things about metaphysics that i had no idea of. I want to write a book now and im grateful for all my traumas, depression, everything bad that happened to me because i can understand the human condition better and maybe this will lead me somewhere, maybe i can help people, save lives. Its weird because, even tho im aware of how amazing life is, and that overthinking killed my vibe, i still went trough the blues and i still do. It will be cured eventually.

So im not an astro-wiz, but here is my natal chart mirage, if you know how to look it up and maybe tell me more about me and my life regarding the downs i went trough and still do.

https://www.astro.com/tmpd/cs36fileqTLgIn-u1284753192/astro_w2gw_andrei.43762.13579.gif

Thank you again, you guys are too kind <3 I wish you all good fortune and be blessed for showing humanity, i almost forgot how it is to feel the warmth of a person. Sorry for the long reply, im rediscovering everything and get excited about small things :P

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Gundahar
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posted October 20, 2017 01:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gundahar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To be ontopic, suicide is truly a delicate matter. It seems complicated to me because i have to look at it from 2 perspective, the one of pure reality and the spiritual one.
Reality: We are our own masters. We own ourselves. Acording to this view, we should be free to do whatever we wish with out life, even if it means to end it. Now, even in the real plane, there are repercusions. We hurt people by doing it. Understandable. The fact to the matter is, they actually hurt themselves, but we can't expect everyone to be nonattached or be ok with our decision because we are constantly learning, and most people do not reach this kind of tranquil mindset of nonattachment and acceptance. The problem is, what if this is the least apropriate way of thinking about suicide? (because there is no right or wrong, just more or less appropriate in my opinion)
Spiritual: We are tiny bits of divine creation, hence we are divine ourselves. As souls, we are sent here to experience things and ascend to higher beings. If we kill ourselves, its like quiting a test before it ends. Not very wise My question here is, if we commit suicide, do we get a second chance to the test? Do we descend on a spiritual scale so bad that we are unable to progress further?

And also theres the bible point of view wich is more tragic than the rest.
So many versions of the truth, but wich one is correct?
What if all of them are just a psychologic pillow for our own comfort?

Because honestly, all have truths in them, but in different colors.

So many questions, so many answers. I personally feel that is wrong to kill yourself, and maybe i've been mind conditioned by society that is wrong, that i should fight till my last breath, but it feels right. Even tho my mind pushes me to the edge sometimes, i don't act on it.

So guys, what do you think? Wich one feels the most appropriate to you? Because i personally feel like and observer, i always did. I found that is liberating to not get attached to any of these views, but also hard to master, because we are beings that work better as a core, not solitary, so then its a natural instinct to rely on something. Weird world we live in.

* I could talk so much about the reality and spirituality regarding this matter, but i also have work to do and i like to ask myself questions, since we all are constantly learning. I will come back with another reply

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PixieJane
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posted October 20, 2017 05:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think that your questions are overlooking and assuming too much even as they're being asked. For example, you talk of suicide harming others, but you don't talk about the harm that is done to suicidal people, nor the harm that one's life may inflict. As if it was on the one struggling with thoughts of suicide to care about everyone else while no one cares about her or her comfort anywhere as much, as if to be suicidal is to be selfish, whereas to expect a person to live on in pain for your own comfort and benefit is not.

And then there are extreme cases, like where a man who sought help repeatedly for his suicidal feelings was given false compassion with a metaphoric (and meaningless) pat on the hand and then ignored (with promised followups by professionals not forthcoming) until finally, perhaps feeling jerked around on top of everything else and feeling as if he wasn't being taken seriously as people (including professionals and hotlines) brushed him off again and again, shot up a McDonald's, slaying several others as well as himself, and now many wished he had killed himself earlier as he planned--not that they wished they got to him before that point when he was still seeking help, and while an extreme example there are many others not quite as extreme like it.

You also assume, for no reason that I can see, that life is a test and suicide wasn't an option to "pass" it, or that people couldn't choose to experience what surviving a suicide is like, or learn their own lessons from it. That is, maybe people have important lessons to learn from suicide, and also about death itself and its acceptance, rather than enabling others to pretend that life is better than it is. Furthermore, suicide could be an experience and teaching moment that others need, as suicide causes people around them to ask hard questions that they never would otherwise. That is, maybe they'd "fail" the test if they didn't--though maybe the test is doing so after you're led to believe it's wrong and "unwise," that the entire life was learning to make one's own choices with suicide the culmination and graduation of that. (And maybe the ones who failed were those who lived on who didn't do enough to stop it, not by shaming, but by compassion. There are so many ways to see it.)

If you want to say all the views have truth in them, then you shouldn't dismiss this as one more possible truth. Technically, Jesus committed suicide for a noble purpose (if you want to say that doesn't count as others did it to him, are you also going to say it doesn't count if doctors, or others, assist in suicide? Or use of venomous snakes and wild animals which a suicidal personally merely fails to resist in order to die?).

And do we "descend" after? I see no reason, based on afterlife experiences which show suicides are just as likely to have a positive NDE as other forms of death, to think so. However, some people who did not commit suicide lived to deeply regret that fact, perhaps being unable to do so later (like being in a hellish hospice in which everything they had was being sold to pay for weeks to months or even years of horrible abuse and neglect). We could explore the ways people ruin their lives and relationships as well, as a type of suicide that doesn't end in literal death, but are just more lessons to learn or experience.

I think I'll add more later, but I want to think about it first. (Maybe I'll add about the other cultures and religions that have made room for suicide as well.)

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Randall
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posted October 20, 2017 05:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lexxigramer:
Randall.

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mirage29
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posted October 20, 2017 10:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mirage29     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Gundahar, Wow. I was really very deeply touched reading your posts.
Acknowledging for now.
I'll come back soon.

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mirage29
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posted October 22, 2017 10:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mirage29     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lexxigramer ...
Medical miracles happening more each year now.
Astonishing finds...

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Randall
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posted October 23, 2017 08:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mirage29:
Lexxigramer ...
Medical miracles happening more each year now.
Astonishing finds...

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PixieJane
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posted October 23, 2017 09:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There's a long, long story I don't want to go into as I think most wouldn't appreciate it anyway. So long story short, I did have a spiritual experience when I was suicidal, though I do see many psychological (and other) reasons why this was (but also have solid reason to believe it was paranormal in nature). If anyone wants an analysis of that then ask, and I'll probably share.

I think it's worth noting that I was not dealing with depression, though there was some genuine despair. I was a 15-year-old runaway on the streets, and part of what was motivating me is to be with my best friend who had just died, since the primary reason I was on the streets was to be with her (however, there were other reasons, and I didn't go back for months after her death when I was essentially scared into returning home--and as should be obvious, it was a pretty big scare since being a homeless kid outside the law isn't for the faint of heart).

I feel I should also point out that not all runaways are idiotic junkies selling the bodies because they don't like rules. I've thought long and hard about why people with certain backgrounds come a dime a dozen on the internet while others (such as hardcore runaways) are so rare online (despite being common in real life) that I've only met one other (and he was a guy) in over 10 years online. It's because the shows aimed primarily at women during the day are targeting mothers and such, and want to stay on their good side, and so view certain type of women favorably (and these will thus reveal their background with it online), while runaway kids unfavorably (who thus feel shamed into hiding it, knowing they'll get a different reaction). If you got your image of what runaway kids are like from talk shows like that then you have no idea what it's like out there (even if their cherry picked kids are true stories), nor what a great many kids on the streets are like or have to deal with.

x

So anyway, I was prevented from killing myself by a guy who held me, and I about cried myself to sleep (having gone about 3 days without sleep and little food can make that easy to happen), but I had an experience then that I'm sure is more than a dream. The culmination is that I met the goddess Freya on another plane of existence who "said" (it was all wordless song that worked like communication) that She Sang me into Existence to stand beside her to fight the giants of Ragnarok. She did not want me to be an "eternal child" or, even worse, to seek to "return to the womb that spit you out," as plenty of people in other religions seemed to want, but to become worthy to stand by Her side as a power in my own right, earned. All that I was enduring was being the sword tempered by fire and pain. If I broke then She'd sing a new Song (with no indication of what would happen to me) but if I broke now then She wanted me to "make an informed decision."

This experience transformed my life and my attitude, and though I've come to "explain away" a lot of it (enough to be agnostic about it, though I have reasons to believe there was a paranormal element involved) I was absolutely convinced that Freya was a real goddess. (I did not believe life was just and the universe loving, however, a near impossible belief to have in situations as I was in then.)

However, a well known aspect of Scandinavian paganism (though little solid is actually known) is that Ragnarok meant the end of most of the gods and the souls of the faithful, that is, people would die a doomed battle against evil forces. A teacher said he could not comprehend this belief (this was about 3 years before I experienced Freya, btw), but I said I understood it: it was better to die who you are then live on as someone you are not (he found me disturbing even when I was 12). And sometimes death, even when self-inflicted, can be a type of victory, or at least better than the alternative of letting the monsters get you, or allowing yourself to be changed into a monster (essentially killing the monster even though you know it will kill you as well).

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PixieJane
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posted October 23, 2017 09:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And in any case, our world is...well, to put it bluntly, filled with horrors, and too many who glibly say "suicide is always wrong" just aren't thinking of that.

If you want to go around saying suicide is wrong, then go out and make this world a better place. Volunteer at a food bank. Heck, fool a hospice filled with abuse that an inmate stuck there so their family could forget about them has people who care as that will get them better treatment (I did that when I was 14 with other kids, though I don't know how they work today with updated security protocols, security designed to protect themselves then the flies they got caught in their web, but even so, Granny Cam has proved effective in fighting certain abuses of the elderly, many of whom probably wished they had not been talked out of suicide years before this when they had that option). I've done both and more, and unlike many who can't be bothered, I'm not telling people that life and the universe is good, that there is always help (when I know there isn't), and that it's a moral failing to make others uncomfortable with one's own pain.

Too many obligate others to suffer for their own benefit and personal comfort so they can pretend to live in a loving universe, and want to brush people off without consequences (or at the most, put them on pills to shut them up), and the whole saying suicide is always wrong and inexcusable and selfish sounds like stock lies we tell ourselves that are pointless to many who are suicidal, whether they are suicidal from emotional reasons, or real life circumstances in which most others don't have a place in glibly telling them how to live their lives or to suck it up. Many who write off all suicide as selfish and deserving of punishment aren't just running from the dark truth of the horrors in the world, but even working to brush it under the carpet (which a suicide makes it very difficult for them to do).

And here's a thought: maybe it's not a person who commits suicide who is punished, but the rest of us for creating a world in which suicide becomes a viable option.

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