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Author
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Topic: In a world without evil
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Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 59535
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted December 20, 2012 02:57 PM
  
You have to separate these two things or you are going to squish the whole Bible to the point where it will not make sense.Prophecy is events that WILL come to pass. There is no stopping them. No man can stop them.
These are on a more global stage. There will be 144, 000 Jews who will witness to the world in the last 3 years of the Tribulation.The Doctrine of Predestination is between each person and God. It is this. There is no time in God's world. The past, present and future is happening all at once. hence, God knows who will accept Him and who will not. Each person has a choice.God just knows what it is. This is very important to remember, as each person chooses his path. God does not eschew anyone, ever. People do this to themselves. The issue is personal choice. God never throws anyone away, but people must humble themselves to do it God's way and not their own. Lack of humility is man's biggest problem ------------------
Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal
http://www.mychristianpsychic.com/
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Faith
Knowflake Posts: 10035
From:
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted December 20, 2012 03:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
The 144,000 are ONLY in the Tribulation in the last three years
I see. Predestination only applies in the Tribulation years. Once all 144,000 seats have been filled, no one else can just choose to have a seat. Makes perfect sense.  IP: Logged |
Faith
Knowflake Posts: 10035
From:
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted December 20, 2012 03:22 PM
Everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe from the Bible. To say all the verses that point to predestination and election are totally invalid ("whacked") is to criticize what you take for God's word. I don't expect you to learn anything from this long list of verses that support the doctrine of election, or even to click on it, because your mind has been made up.
http://www.albatrus.org/english/theology/predestination/verses_concerning_predesti nation.htm But there it is. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure... How do you interpret that? What are you supposed to give diligence to if you elected yourself?
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Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 59535
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted December 20, 2012 03:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
I see. Predestination only applies in the Tribulation years. Once all 144,000 seats have been filled, no one else can just choose to have a seat.Makes perfect sense.
Predestination is between EACH person who ever lived and God. prophecy is God's plan which WILL happen. It is God's plan for the world. No man can change it, one way or another. each man can decide if he will submit to God, only.
Prophecy comes into play when no one could( or ever will) destroy the Jews although many people have tried and now many countries want to wipe out Israel. It will NEVER happen--ever. This is prophecy. Predestination is the choice of every person, ever born, if he will submit to the one true God and His Word--the Bible. That is the story, friends, whether you like it or not  ------------------
Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal
http://www.mychristianpsychic.com/
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PhoenixFire
Knowflake Posts: 1398
From: The Crossing
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted December 20, 2012 04:03 PM
If salvation comes from following Jesus Christ as savior, then what of all those souls born before the birth of JC? Are they all condemed to hell? How do you explain/rationalize salvation through JC as choice, when those people did not choose when to be born? For modern day, how do you rationalize following Christ as a choice for people who did not choose to be born in isolate areas of the world where Christianity doesn't exist? IP: Logged |
Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 59535
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted December 20, 2012 04:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixFire:
If salvation comes from following Jesus Christ as savior, then what of all those souls born before the birth of JC? Are they all condemed to hell? How do you explain/rationalize salvation through JC as choice, when those people did not choose when to be born? For modern day, how do you rationalize following Christ as a choice for people who did not choose to be born in isolate areas of the world where Christianity doesn't exist?
No, that was the Age of the Law and people got salvation from faith. After Jesus' death, people got salvation from faith in Jesus' sacrifice for their sins. After Jesus' death began the Age of Grace. That is why you have to look at dispensations, which are time periods with different relationships of different groups to God. ------------------
Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal
http://www.mychristianpsychic.com/
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juniperb
Moderator Posts: 8760
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted December 20, 2012 04:34 PM
It is tangled up (by man not God)and only makes sense to the believer. ------------------
We need to listen to our own song, and share it with others, but not force it on them. Our songs are different. They should be in harmony with each other. ~ Mattie Stepanek IP: Logged |
Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 59535
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted December 20, 2012 04:56 PM
Oh well. I am called to explain the best I can when people ask. Other than that, there is nothing I can do  ------------------
Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal
http://www.mychristianpsychic.com/
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Faith
Knowflake Posts: 10035
From:
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted December 20, 2012 05:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixFire:
For modern day, how do you rationalize following Christ as a choice for people who did not choose to be born in isolate areas of the world where Christianity doesn't exist?
They were predestined to hell, that's how it's explained.
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Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 59535
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted December 20, 2012 06:32 PM
No, ALL people will be told of Christ. We, with our finite minds, do not know how. It could be in dreams or visions. I don't know but EVERY man will make a choice to go to Heaven or Hell. I know you don't like to hear this. I don't like to say it, but it is the truth. Every man will bow his knee to Jesus. It is just a matter of if it is on the way to Heaven or Hell. Your bowing your knee to Jesus is not a choice. That, you will do!------------------
Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal
http://www.mychristianpsychic.com/
IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 8760
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted December 20, 2012 07:04 PM
Ami Anne, I sincerely know what your Faith means to you. It makes sense of your life, explains suffering and promises reward at the end Knowing this encourages me to create a balance. One between mankind, their creations and God`s. I have as deep a Faith that you have. It simply is not based on human writings conjoined and interpretations. I am as certain as you are, that sharing my Faith is as important to me as it is you. This does not mean I am belittling or dismissing yours. Sharing has the capacity to enrich others by seeing both in a different light. I stand as strong as you do in my Faith and I hope our conversations provides fruit rather than causes divisiveness. ------------------
We need to listen to our own song, and share it with others, but not force it on them. Our songs are different. They should be in harmony with each other. ~ Mattie Stepanek IP: Logged |
Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 59535
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted December 20, 2012 07:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by juniperb:
Ami Anne, I sincerely know what your Faith means to you. It makes sense of your life, explains suffering and promises reward at the end Knowing this encourages me to create a balance. One between mankind, their creations and God`s. I have as deep a Faith that you have. It simply is not based on human writings conjoined and interpretations. I am as certain as you are, that sharing my Faith is as important to me as it is you. This does not mean I am belittling or dismissing yours. Sharing has the capacity to enrich others by seeing both in a different light. I stand as strong as you do in my Faith and I hope our conversations provides fruit rather than causes divisiveness.
Jesus did not die that awful death for "prettiness' and niceties, Juni.
Things that are lies which are "made nice" are NOT nice. They are not loving. Truth is loving. Anyway, I know you were trying to be gracious and I appreciate that ------------------
Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal
http://www.mychristianpsychic.com/
IP: Logged |
PixieJane
Moderator Posts: 5830
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted December 20, 2012 10:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by juniperb:
It is tangled up (by man not God)and only makes sense to the believer.
I mentioned Jasmine in my OP, and I just saw that arc again with 2 kids. Now the kids didn't get the many Christian references to it (as their exposure has been minimal, and when one girl got exposed to fundies they alienated her really fast), like "slouching toward Bethlehem" (technically a poem by Yeats on the Christians call the Second Coming, but still) and things like The Beast being very much like a Christian Devil, the earthquakes, rain of fire, and sun turning black (described in the Bible, especially Revelations), and also Jasmine had been on Earth before and now She'd returned to judge the guilty and bring love and peace in a world without sin. And then scenes like this where those mind controlled by the Higher Being Jasmine (and all sin/free will removed) talk to those who have yet to fall under the Higher Being's spell (and thus seeking Her to destroy Her in order to save the world), those with an asterisk not yet "saved": "No. No kill."
* "Since when?"
"Since we've all been Saved."
* "Oh...well that's...crazy talk."
"They don't understand."
"No."
"We don't want to kill her, we just want to find her. So we can worship her. That's all."
"She's amazing. You'll go nuts."
* "That will definitely help us relate better." Of course those who have fallen under her spell understand...while those who have not, and refuse to, are "not of the Body" and must be purged. And she comes off as so benevolent, and she makes people so happy and loving to each other (even if they're mind controlled and compelled to worship her, no longer with any free will of their own), she really is going to bring world peace, it's pretty close to what the Christians who long for the return of Christ pray for. (I also wonder if JW had to use "Jasmine" as the producers would've never allowed an olive skin guy with crucifixion scars on his wrists and feet to be the Higher Being returned to take over the world...) Interesting that such mind control is often viewed as horrific once you take the religion out of it, for example Invasion of the Body Snatchers, The Invasion, The Faculty, The Puppet Masters, the Borg of Star Trek, etc...even in Angel where she was truly bringing world peace (if also devoid of free will) she was a creature of horror, the Big Bad to be defeated (but funny how the demons reward the heroes for "ending world peace" after  ). There's one fundie group that loved to nitpick Buffy & Angel, and they got mind boggling ridiculous (offhand I recall they complained Buffy sacrificing herself to save the world "encouraged suicide" unable to see if that was true then so did the story of Jesus), but I wasn't able to find what they had to say about the Jasmine arc...I suspect they tried very hard not to see how the character was inspired by Revelations and the Second Coming. Btw, for anyone who saw the arc years ago here's a tribute music vid someone made of it which might help you remember it better (though if you never saw it then it won't make any sense):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uzJ46lRyYk ETA: IMO, this is an awesome tribute to s4 Angel, so even though it only touches on the Jasmine arc I'm including it for fans (or former fans) of the show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tOCahSVVN8 ETA II: someone made an awesome trailer for Angel season 4 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a9vKroNzAE IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 48885
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted January 12, 2013 02:50 PM
*bump*------------------
"Fall down 100 times, get up 101...this is success." --ME IP: Logged |
juandreschacin
Newflake Posts: 3
From:
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted January 12, 2013 04:56 PM
to answer your question PixieJane, you're better off asking yourself. There is a lot of noise in this thread, and the noise will continue. Pay attention.IP: Logged |
PixieJane
Moderator Posts: 5830
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted January 12, 2013 09:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by juandreschacin:
to answer your question PixieJane, you're better off asking yourself. There is a lot of noise in this thread, and the noise will continue. Pay attention.
But I'm not a mind reader. And since I don't believe the common maxim of "for good there must be evil" or that it's desirable for a messianic figure to return to take our free will away I have a hard time with understanding it. I especially have difficulty understanding the cognitive dissonance of simultaneously believing that there can be no good without evil but at the same time that God is going to reboot the cosmos and then there will be good without evil, and that it's evil to deprive us of free will and yet that's what they pray God (or other entity) to do by returning and removing sin/free will from them and all they exist with. If I were to simply answer it for myself then I'd say the many people who believe it simply haven't thought through their position and if they actually thought it out then they'd discard their beliefs. But I made the mistake of assuming that with others (on very different beliefs) and then coming to understand just how they figured it so I'm not prone to do that in this case. There's been so much written on it that surely someone has addressed these points. (Note, I'll read this thread in its entirety again later.) IP: Logged |
7thGuardian
Knowflake Posts: 1450
From: Transylvania
Registered: May 2012
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posted January 14, 2013 10:05 AM
A world without Evil, would be a world without Good - since this two go hand in hand... Such would should be a world without darkness - where things just exist... no purpose, no meaning, no nothing... well, there would have to be something, but something that bares a deep signature of nothingness compared to the world we live in, a simple existence based on light and only light - unlimited light from which you'd be part of - not brighter or lower in brightness - just the same as the rest, no room for inequality or originality... cause that implies difference - which can be regarded as a source of Evil . That's the only way - such world would be possible... I wonder how many of you would be really interested in such world... cause I presume that - your fantasy of such world was based on this one - whit what you consider Evil "locked in a box".  Good and Evil are terms intended as a delimitation between light and darkness (an ancient fear of the dark - regarded as the primary source of Evil - and it does bare some truth) - between what's considered moral and what's considered immoral... and more recently (last century), after more people had access to education (as in - advanced knowledge regarding the world we live in) we realized that there's a problem with so called morality as described by ancient traditions (like those on which many Religions are based) - being "subjective" molded by the minds of our ancestors, molded by primitive notions and understanding - some still stand (common sense related), wile others - tend to be treated with sarcasm - sounding so stupid for a educated mind... IP: Logged |
mirage29
Knowflake Posts: 3231
From: us
Registered: May 2012
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posted January 14, 2013 02:22 PM
Good? Evil?I say to skip the philosophy and religious talks, and simply observe the dynamics: look at "how" you've treated each other right here "at home" in Linda Goodman's Land... world without evil?..... Evil manifests itself RIGHT HERE - I've observed how your interactions can be spikes of utter "hatefulness"--- How can you discuss evilness in organized belief systems in the outside world when you're so "personally evil" to each other, right here?... Stripped BARE of your so-called "religions" and other cloaking disguises, you're ALL guilty here of evil and having no love... It starts HERE, at LindaLand, with YOU!! It's NOT philosophy. NOT religions--- (be they east or west or heavenly or hellish, or nothing existing at all). WHO are you, really... not "what"... IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 8760
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted January 14, 2013 04:35 PM
Mirage29, you sound frusterated, can you share more on why you hold these views?------------------
We need to listen to our own song, and share it with others, but not force it on them. Our songs are different. They should be in harmony with each other. ~ Mattie Stepanek IP: Logged |
mirage29
Knowflake Posts: 3231
From: us
Registered: May 2012
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posted January 14, 2013 07:56 PM
Thank you so much for the kindness of your respone, juniperb... I sorta feel like USA Abigail Evans did close to the end of the US presidential elections...
[bronco bama girl] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFeQER_7rGQ
[0:22] when it comes to searching for spirituality topics... can't find what I need? I'm weary and sore of discussions that are couched veiled perpetual attacks, meant to inflict harm, and debase people over and over again. Conversation goes nowhere. I crave genuineness, human interaction-- not battery. Want to hear how it makes a difference in 'self's' life rather than how right or wrong other's belief systems are. Again, I thank you so much for your response, juniperb. I'm scanning through LL sections to "find" where I fit it. Saw the mystic theme.... I want to find those kinds of conversations... on awakening. We can't find peace until embrace evil and the good. (Remember StarTrek episodes when Captain Kirk got split into good and bad identities in the transporter. He wasn't 'competent' as captain of his ship until he embraced and synthesized BOTH identities within. They worked 'together' inside him.) If you have suggestions, please let me know? IP: Logged |
PixieJane
Moderator Posts: 5830
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted January 14, 2013 11:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mirage29:
Good? Evil?I say to skip the philosophy and religious talks, and simply observe the dynamics: look at "how" you've treated each other right here "at home" in Linda Goodman's Land...
You seem to have missed the point of this thread in that I'm not asking about how to create a world without evil or why evil exists, I'm asking for a seemingly contradictory idea to be explained in a way I can understand (I'm not looking to be convinced, either, I'm just looking to understand it). As an air sign I find seemingly unresolved cognitive dissonance (think of them as plot holes you could drive a semi through) drive me batty as I try to work them out in an often vain attempt to make sense of it (if I was much worse I'd be like those androids on a Star Trek planet where they broke down when presented with liar paradoxes). And I have come to understand concepts I found baffling in the past, and it makes me happy when I do (even if I totally disagree with it I'm still happy). And I KNOW, absolutely NO DOUBT, that others have asked the same thing (it's so glaringly obvious that I can't be the first to notice the incongruity) so that people have addressed it, and I'm sure at least a couple have done so with brilliance. The more brilliant explanations tend to be spread as well (eventually quoted in books) so it was my hope that someone who believed it (at least at one time) had actually read it (or at least heard a brilliant preacher or channeled spirit or whatever explain it so that they understood it), but I guess not. IP: Logged |
PixieJane
Moderator Posts: 5830
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted January 14, 2013 11:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mirage29:
Stripped BARE of your so-called "religions" and other cloaking disguises, you're ALL guilty here of evil and having no love...
Oooh, harsh. But remember Captain Kirk in the episode you referenced, however. When whole he was both compassionate and yet selfish, only when he was split in two could one side said to be guilty of "having no love." I don't argue that we're all (you, me, Jesus as portrayed in the Bible, everyone) guilty of evil to some extent (even by my definition which is that of malice as opposed to selfishness), but I wouldn't say anybody here is guilty of "no love." (Though I'm sure you meant that as a hyperbole to mean we don't have enough of it rather than completely bereft of it.) And btw, I see a lot of connection between hate & love. The people we love can (and probably will) hurt us the most, possibly without even trying, and that can lead to hate (even passionate love & hate for someone at the very same time, perhaps the most dangerous mix). And hate propaganda also exploits love, the love of children, of church, of nation, of self, it tries to make the object to be hated as a threat to the ones loved, and the more one loves that which is threatened, the more one can hate. The opposite of love isn't hatred, it's apathy. Granted, that's another topic, but it doesn't look like there's an answer to be had for my question anyway, at least not here. IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 48885
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted January 15, 2013 12:30 PM
That was a great episode.------------------
"Fall down 100 times, get up 101...this is success." --ME IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 8760
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted January 15, 2013 02:17 PM
quote:
I crave genuineness, human interaction-- not battery. Want to hear how it makes a difference in 'self's' life rather than how right or wrong other's belief systems are.
I understand your yearning Mirage.
It is difficult to accomplish on the internet as it is such a diverse media. One gets all kinds of people responding and we must clean our own filters and only respond to what we need not what irritates us. Make sense? Be selective in thread choices and know the posters. That is the only advice re the internet I have. I would recommend some peaceful and fullfilling reading to help you fill your yearning. Then start threads on your subjects choice and see where it will go.
www.sacred-texts.com is very divirse and wonderful place to browse. Sample of subjects:
Esoteric/Occult
Judaism
Bible
Mysteries
Search
Book of Shadows
Hinduism
Native American
------------------
We need to listen to our own song, and share it with others, but not force it on them. Our songs are different. They should be in harmony with each other. ~ Mattie Stepanek IP: Logged |
mirage29
Knowflake Posts: 3231
From: us
Registered: May 2012
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posted January 15, 2013 06:54 PM
PixieJane, I love the way you expressed yourself to me, (including links), in the two posts directed towards me, above. It really does clear up a lot of "noise" Love that definition of Cognitive Dissonance... that's a whole conversation in itself! I depth! Thankyou for such a kind response...
And I see now that others are revising their previous posts... better-- yes, there was a lot of "noise" in this thread (as one poster tried to point out... I understand what they meant...
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