posted June 26, 2009 08:11 AM         

quote:

---

I am not talking about american classifications necessarily

classifications are like Caucasoid,Negroid,Mongoloid. those aren't american classifications

even arabs fall into the Caucasoid group
I once checked out and read a book about the human race and racial groups. it wasn't just europeans that were classed under the caucasoid group. certain afroasiatic people are listed under the caucasoid group.

Negro was actually Spanish,Portuguese for Black.

---

Okay but still, in Africa we rarely ever classify ourselves by race like here in the West....especially not by those parameters. Our ethnicity is/has always been more relevant to us.

posted June 26, 2009 10:00 AM         

I understand Benedict Moon

it was the Westerners that did come up with the classification labels

so yeah...I agree

posted June 26, 2009 10:11 AM         

I am anti-caste system

I am anti-racism

I am anti-treating Dalits/Untouchables and any other people like crap

Even in USA,
I am anti-racism
I am anti-treating people like crap

even in any other country in the world

if I was living in the days of my father and stepfather when they were kids in USA

I'd definitely be anti-racism, anti-segregation
and anti-mistreatment of others

so don't even go there with the anti-India stuff.

I am not anti-India nor anti-Indian

I am not anti-Hinduism either

I am anti-the treatment of the untouchables/dalits there
obviously a lot of people are there
That's why the Dalit Freedom Network is founded. Dalits converting to other religions because they find Hinuduism to be oppressive. That Dalit with the Ph.D talked about his feelings about hinduism which he refers to as Brahminism and sanctified racism. Why don't you chew him out? how about chew out the Dalit Freedom Network? chew out all those Dalits that complain about their suffering and mistreatment in India?

I am anti-the sanctified racism in that country in the form of disguised religion in the form of
so-called karma,dharma

that stuff doesn't fly here in USA

If they pulled that stuff here, man...I would be rebel like crazy. I am sure that a lot of people would. We would have other Frederick Douglas's and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's leading the way.

another thing

A lot of people suffer and starve in Ethiopia and other African countries as well as other 3rd world countries

why isn't that they are not viewed as some old soul countries. Africans have their own deep spiritual traditions
the same with people of other cultures like the Native Americans

who decides whose soul is young and whose soul is old

btw my full ancestry from what my mom told me is Black(not sure African countries),Portuguese,English,German,French,Italian,Puerto Rican,Native American (mom said Cherokee)

I had 3 half Japanese stepsisters. I have 2 half Filipino first cousins. My stepgrandmother is Mexican and Puerto Rican, and a lot of family on that inside include my aunts/uncles (my mom's paternal halfsiblings),cousins, and relatives by marriage.

my grandfather once referred to our family in a picture as the United Nations

interestingly, the asteroid, United Nations is 17 minutes conjunct my antivertex/oppose my vertex.

so diversity is a big theme in more ways than one.

Raymond

posted June 26, 2009 10:36 AM         

I am surprised now. I always thought Africans were considered an old spiritual nation, too?
I mean, egypt is in Africa, isnīt it?
And of course there are other states there with their own spiritual roots. wELL;I at least have always thought of them as having very deep spiritual roots.

But then i tend to see a difference between the spiritual origin of a nation and their current political state. Of course sometimes one leads to the other.

Anyway, I think for me it works best to not generalize things too much.
Not all Indians are bad people and not all Americans hate the Black, and not all Germans are Nazis.
I am not saying it doesnīt exist, because to the shame of many nations, racism DOES exist in many forms and guises.

But as I said I donīt like generalizations. And sometimes it has almost seemed to me, like the Indians may have castes and call them like that (and I am not saying I think this is okay, but I have never been there or lived there, so I donīt want to judge something I do not really know), but that other nations also have their castes. They just don`t call it like that.

Yet, I still can see how differently people are treated EVERYWHERE in this world, depending on which upbringing they had, if they are rich or poor, employed or unemployed and so on.

The beggars on the streets in many big cities, arenīt they treated like "outcasts" in mayn cases?

posted June 26, 2009 10:57 AM         

quote:

---

A lot of people suffer and starve in Ethiopia and other African countries as well as other 3rd world countries

why isn't that they are not viewed as some old soul countries. Africans have their own deep spiritual traditions
the same with people of other cultures like the Native Americans

---

Actually, all of the cultures you mentioned are viewed by many in the West as very spiritual places. But I think DD makes a good point.... there's a difference between the spiritual roots and the current political situations of today and there-in lies the problem: some people over-romanticize these places but totally gloss over the current issues that exist there. I never saw Carl doing that in this thread though.

posted June 26, 2009 11:08 AM         

I hardly ever read anything about deep spiritual traditions/enlightenment,old soul in regards to Africans or heck...for even Native Americans for that matter.

I don't believe any country is any spiritually advanced as another.

with that type of logic of about the suffering,poverty and the karma,dharma involving India

the same could be said for USA
because of all the suffering that Native Americans and Blacks suffered there. many native americans wiped out and later forced on reservations, and ultimately minorities in their own land. many blacks that were slaved,whipped,with their families split up and sold. Blacks don't known their own original family names. Why do you think so many blacks have European names? It's because they are the names of plantation owners. They call them "slave-names". That's why Malcolm Little dropped his last name, and changed it to X. He later took on a muslim name, Shabazz.

"Not all Indians are bad people and not all Americans hate the Black, and not all Germans are Nazis.
I am not saying it doesnīt exist, because to the shame of many nations, racism DOES exist in many forms and guises."

I don't need an education on that because I didn't generalize. I never said that all Indians are bad people. I didn't say that all Americans hate blacks. I never said that all Germans are nazis.
I never generalized about a nationality,race,ethnicity......especially as mixed as I am. One of the reasons that I believe that there should be unity and that we should all love each other, believing in Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's dream is because of being,growing up as multiracial person.
Is it any wonder that I incarnated with the Moon in Pisces square Jupiter-Neptune in Sagittarius. My black father had Sun in Capricorn and Moon in Pisces combo like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., and he shared the same idealism in regards to Unity,Universal Love like Dr. King did and I do. My white mother with her Sun in Gemini in 12th trine Neptune in Libra in 5th really loved him for that.

I was talking about the caste system and the way the Dalits (oppressed) are treated like crap in India,and many of them are fighting against it in numerous ways including like I said converting to other religions.

also there are a lot of links of videos about the Dalits ...I posted that in this thread. There were over 20 of them.

I don't just say stuff and not back it up. That's not what I am about.
I do post links of sites,etc to back up what I say. I definitely do that with Astrology.
I don't expect nor do I like people to take my words for granted. I prefer that they see it for themselves.

there are also link to the Dalit Freedom Network too. That organization was founded to help deliver the Dalits from oppression that they face in India under the so-called karma,dharma,reincarnation that made caste system possible.

this stuff is not made-up crap nor delusional

if people really care and are curious, they can go see for themselves, check out the videos, and read up on the history of the Dalits.
or better yet take their butts to India and go live among the Dalits and see how they live and how they are treated.

I just see that the way venusdeindia is talking is no different from how a white southerner before 1964 (the year of Civil Rights Act) or 1865 (the year of end of Civil War/slavery) about the treatment of Blacks under segregation and slavery. they get angry, and say "how dare you criticize us...you don't know us..you don't know our way of life...so shut the hell up and mind your own business" as far as I am concerned.

doesn't it ever occur to people that maybe the karma,dharma,reincarnation concept set up in India was used to keep certain people in their place?

the same kind of stuff happened in other countries. Christianity was used in the same way. Many Europeans believed in Christianity,Bible taught them that blacks were inferior to whites. That they can even give them a better life through Christianity. They could "save" them. Be a good n'word, and you will find heaven. Be a bad n'word, and you will find hell. Some black slaves bought that,and so they were seen as good. Some blacks fought against it,and they were seen as bad and beaten severely and even executed. One of the most significant blacks that led a slave revolt but ended up executed was Nat Turner.

Even in segregation laws and intermarriage bans

many people use the bible,Christianity to excuse
saying that God meant for the races to be separate.
they are using the bible to condone gay marriage bans.

I was never really into organized religion regardless of the religion.

that's why it finally took me to this year to join an interfaith unity church. I like the diversity there.

my activist,advocate spirit when it comes to mistreatment of others doesn't rule out my own spirituality.
that goes for many others. I think that's where my affinity with Unitarian Universalism comes in. Social Justice is big part of it. They were involved in absolutionism (freedom from slavery), the civil rights movement,and women's rights. Quakers were also involved in absolutionism.

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. the main leader of the civil rights movement was a Christian Baptist minister. As a black man born in/growing up in the South, he knew what it was like to experience segregation,Jim Crow laws in the South. He went to jail many times for civil disobedience of the Jim Crow laws. For all his nonviolence, his life ended from violence. Civil Rights leader Medgar Evans who was also black ended up the same way.

in a way, USA had their own caste system. It took people like former slave, Frederick Douglas (who was half black and half white and had a white feminist woman for his 2nd wife) and Dr. Martin Luther King and many others that experienced slavery and segregation laws to fight and lead to the abolishment of slavery and racism.
Of course, many whites were involved too....especially people like Abraham Lincoln and Lyndon B. Johnson. I and many other people of color owe them our gratitude for the freedom and desegregation of our non-white ancestors.

if there was belief in karma/dharma in USA that made caste system prevalent, many blacks would still be under segregation laws and even be slaves.
They wouldn't be able to mingle with whites....so I and many other mixed people would not even be born.

I thank God that I was born in a time in the USA that there is no slavery and Jim Crow laws. I would have hated it and would really feel like how the Dalits feel.

I desire and pray for all types of segregation,racism,bigotry,unequal treatment to be abolished in every single nation on the planet. not just USA...not just India...not just Saudia Arabia. all nations

if there is real karma,dharma,reincarnation, then lets use them to treat people nicely and as fellow human beings

"treat others like you want to be treated" is something that was taught in first grade or maybe even kindergarten or preschool.
the simplest concept of all, but the most difficult concept to practice...it seems

lets not use karma,dharma,reincarnation to condone cruelty of others and think that it's ok because it's their karma,dharma.

like I said before, that idea of thinking would easily excuse racism,bigotry,and equality areas here in USA and other countries
many people would still be slaves and all generations that come after.

posted June 26, 2009 11:24 AM         

MVM,

exactly!

Definitely USA was just as bad as India.
If I was born in those slavery and segregation days in the USA, I don't know what I have done. I'd probably leave for some other country and not want to live in USA but where to....I don't know. I would probably run away too.

I have Mars in Aquarius and an unaspected Uranus that trines Midheaven. I also have North Lunar Node in Aquarius trine Midheaven with 45 minutes of arc. There is no way that I would put up with oppression in the form of slavery nor segregation. I'd definitely rebel! Heck..I rebelled against my mother and stepfather for being controlling and abusive. If I can do that to them, I could definitely do it to a society that practices slavery and segregation.

my Sun conjunct South Eris Node in Scorpio with 10 minutes of arc could indicate my going against the status quo,standing up for myself/others,fighting for equality but can be seen as troublemaking and controversial.

My Eris sextiles Midheaven in 11'14 Gemini with 1 degree orb

Sabian Symbol for 12 Gemini
A Negro Girl Fights For Her Independence In the City
"liberation from the ghosts of the past"

that seems like equal/civil rights,advocacy to me

the opposite point Imum Coeli in 11'14 Sagittarius

Sabian Symbol 12 Sagittarius

A Flag Turns Into An Eagle; The Eagle Into A Chanticleer Saluting The Dawn
"the spiritualization and promotion of great symbols of a New Age by minds sensitive to its precursory manifestations"

growing up, I fantasized living in other countries beside the USA. I even thought of marrying a foreigner.
always wanted to go foreign countries.
One of the reasons that I joined the navy is to see the world. One of my uncles was in the navy, and he talked me into joining.

I do have 4th/7th house ruler Jupiter in Sagittarius in 3rd conjunct Imum Coeli in Sagittarius. My 7th house ruler Neptune is in Sagittarius in 3rd. 5th house ruler Saturn is retrograde in Gemini in 9th,and opposes the conjunction of Jupiter and Neptune.

Raymond

posted June 26, 2009 01:26 PM         

I will never use karma,dharma,and reincarnation,nor any other religious/spiritual beliefs/concepts as an excuse to condone racism,bigotry,mistreatment,abuse,unequal treatment of others.

I say again, I wouldn't want to live in India. I also wouldn't want to be born here in the USA during the times they had slavery and segregation laws that my black ancestors/relatives on my father's side and my stepfather had to deal with. They knew what it was like to be treated like Dalits.
My stepfather was born in Boston,Masschussets in 1929. My father was born in New Orleans,Louisiana in 1941.
I was lucky to be born in San Francisco,California in 1971.

I will always speak out against the injustices,mistreatment,bigotry done to fellow human beings. I will always speak out against religious,self-righteous hypocrisy which does run rampant here in USA and other countries,and not just India.

I have called out some Christian Americans,and their self righteous hypocrisy when it came to gay rights issues too.

but I also spoke out against psychiatry in regards to the psychiatric misdiagnosing of neurodivergents but also blacks.

hence my life purpose as a neurodiversity advocate that wants to form a nonprofit neurodiversity organization and perhaps my life purpose is also as women's right advocate,and I am already a member of National Organization For Women.

Raymond

posted June 26, 2009 03:49 PM         

I personally neither believe nor disbelieve in soul choices of birth. To me it just is what it is.

I also think it's questionable to say that people are born in deplorable conditions at times because it's their Karma.
I'm sorry, it feels like saying someone got cancer because it was their Karma. It feels like a dangerous dismissal or explanation to suffering...it sounds like it trivializes others' pain and gets in the way of compassion.

posted June 26, 2009 04:41 PM         

I thought about going there. I want to know more about my black roots. I never knew my father,and so don't know any of my black family.
They are Black Creole (mixed Black,French,Native American).

My father grew up with his grandmother. They believed in magick and spirits. Of course,they believed in Voodoo. My mother told me that my father's grandmother put snakes on the porch to ward off evil spirits. My father would always gather up his hair after a haircut to prevent anybody from using it magically against him. I am very sure that people don't believe in that stuff would call them "paranoid schizophrenics"
The DSM-IV-TR does say that they are supposed to take cultural beliefs into account when it comes to schizophrenia.

"Now THAT is one place in the US which has a lot of rich history. I know the term history is relative here, but I think it's important all the same."

Yeah...I agree. However, it's part of the South. Slavery was there, and so my black ancestors were slaves there. The culture is rather cosmopolitan though. New Orleans is predominantly black city. My mom told me that my father liked New Orleans food like crawdads and gumbo.

"I personally neither believe nor disbelieve in soul choices of birth. To me it just is what it is."

"I also think it's questionable to say that people are born in deplorable conditions at times because it's their Karma. I'm sorry, it feels like saying someone got cancer because it was their Karma. It feels like a dangerous dismissal or explanation to suffering...it sounds like it trivializes others' pain and gets in the way of compassion."

I believe in reincarnation,pastlives,and karma. I thought it was a great concept in that it could be that we've been there before. We all had pastlives as same races,genders,nationalities,etc.
Therefore, it can lead to a sense of unity and loving each other,and compassion because we share a common bond.

I believe that I had numerous pastlives as other races,other nationalities, and the opposite gender.

I never saw this stuff as to condone,tolerate,and accept things like racism,bigotry,slavery,segregation,cruelty,oppression,and mistreatment of others.

Of course, I don't use it excuse diseases. I don't see my mom's diabetes and hepatitis C as karma. I see it as a serious health problem that needs to be addressed and healed. Of course,use her experiences to motivate me to take care of my own health. Of course, have compassion for her. I feel the same about people with health problems in general. That even goes for psychiatric problems. I know what it's like to suffer from Anxiety and Depression. So who am I to judge others with psychiatric disorders. There are lot of bigots when it comes to people with psychiatric disorders. I am sorry to say...I see it not only among convervatives but also liberals...I see it not only among metaphysical disbelievers but also metaphysical believers. This bigotry is not excluded from any group. There are bigots in many groups. They just vary.

I have been thinking that maybe I incarnated as a multiracial neurodivergent person that doesn't fit male stereotypes in a country where I am a racial minority to have karmic lessons involving tolerance and acceptance of diversity. That doesn't mean that I should have to put with racism,bigotry,cruelty,and mistreatment from others. I feel that I should always defend myself and not let people walk all over me. My karmic past doesn't determine who I am today. Only my present and what I do now in this moment does. As a human being, I have the human,equal,civil rights to live a life that is successful that I possibly can. I believe that goes for anybody else.

currently both Jupiter and Neptune are retrograding, and they are in conjunction in the sign of Aquarius

right now, they are in conjunction to my 3rd/8th house ruler Mars in Aquarius which disposits my Eris-Chiron (both retrograde) conjunction in Aries in 8th and my Sun-Ixion-true Black Moon Lilith-South Eris Node conjunction in Scorpio.
That's using Mars and Pluto as co-rulers of Scorpio.

I am starting to believe that the transit has to do with me re-assessing my spiritual beliefs in regards to things in connected to human rights and equal/civil rights concerns.

I also feel that because of my neurodivergence/special education experiences and being multiethnic with being part black in a country that is predominantly white may have factored into my getting being involved in New Age,New Thought things at late age of 27 compared to some people that are deep into this stuff in their teens or in childhood. I feel that on the average,American blacks are probably resistant to New Age,New Thought beliefs compared to American whites. I have talked to some people about it,and there are agreements. I don't think blacks would like the idea of karma,dharma,reincarnation being used to condone racism,slavery,oppression,and Jim Crow laws. There are many blacks that actually sympathize with the Dalits in India which they see as the Blacks of India. That's what even the Dalit with the Ph.D said, referring to the black untouchables. In USA, Blacks were once untouchables themselves. Some of those were my paternal ancestors.

Even though I am idealistic in that I believe that we should all love each other and get along, I am also a realist in regards to that racism is still a problem in USA. I know from the experience of being called the "n'word" ,being told my hair is "nappy" and other things. I know that racism is a multiracial thing. I got annoyed with black racists when I was in the navy. I got furious when one black guy said that white women like black men because of sexual prowess stuff and big dicks. I wanted to kick his butt,and it took 3 people to take me down to keep me from hitting him. I felt like the relationship of my white mother and black father was invalidated.

so yeah...there is no way that I'd use karma to condone racism,bigotry,human rights issues,equal rights issues, and caste systems

if that makes me a young soul who is seen as unenlightened and has no spirituality to others, so be it.

I wasn't born to please all people nor to for everybody to please me.

more and more, as I understand my Sun conjunct South Eris Node, I realize that no matter what I say or do, there will always be people that disagree with what I say,see even if I have good intentions like the advocacy. I know that I can be very controversial in how I express myself. Many other advocates were also highly controversial. I know that I have to work hard on developing a "thick skin" and resolve my insecurities and anger as well as keep my passion and intensity in check if I am to be a successful neurodiversity advocate with a nonprofit organization.

Raymond

posted June 27, 2009 01:25 PM         

However it's just that the point "I am anti-treating Dalits/Untouchables and any other people like crap" keeps being reiterated when it comes to your opinion about India. If we switch "India" to "America" and vice versa in this thread before posting, to consider that switch in your mind, and maybe it might lessen some of the negativity in this thread.

Even to a non-Indian person like me, it read like you were associating negativity with India/Indian things. Your aversion to Vedic Astrology stems from the caste system you read about, but Vedic Astrology is astrology, the caste system is the caste system. However, by association, you link the two together.

Venus, by association, also read your words negatively. I'm not trying to defend her nor attack you, but giving a bit of my opinion on a thread I've been reading. Perhaps, maybe there is a small chance that your words touched on sensitive issues and could have been phrased more sensitively? I read the same Natl Geographic articles years ago and was saddened by it too but it didn't repulse me from India.

I know you've mention that you posted in a detached, unemotional way, but might not that be the reason you didn't realise your words could have been a touch prickly if a native of India were to read them? Would you be willing to consider that point of view, Glaucus?

We all hope to express our opinions and be respected for them, freedom of words after all. But sometimes, that freedom has to be wielded sensitively. "With great power, comes great responsibility." Says the good old Uncle Parker in Spider-man

Well to be fair to India, other European countries do practice forms of classification. Dukes, Marquess, Earls, Viscounts and Barons? That's just the peerage, below that would be the bourgeosie and then the peasants.

Of course nowadays we don't have people who call themselves peasants anymore, it's not the 18th century...but the peerage still exists, with glamour intact.

Even in America, it's not overtly raised but among the different ethnicities (I prefer that word to race) there are also stereotypes/classifications. Stereotypes are not only projected but also internalised, so sometimes it would be difficult to detect.
I worked there for a few months and I could see this "pecking" system when "Whites", "Blacks", "Latinos", "Asians" and more work together, in that order.
I was like a Dalit in America lol. There were some discrimination against me, even unfair behaviour that I couldn't do much about, but that was part and parcel of the American life I led. I would say I even wouldn't have traded some of the experiences of being discriminated it felt bad but it opened my eyes.

So I don't even know if people will bother reading my post but my point is India has its draws and murkier aspects. It isn't just like every other country because each country is unique, therefore we can't judge it with similar standards, but instead try to understand the complexities and facets that each country has with regards to culture, history, people and more.

When I read comments about India like not being safe for "fair-skin women" it was saddening, if it were my country mentioned instead, I would have felt unfairly treated too. Love for the home place; you love its beauty and know its flaws, you would feel proud of it nonetheless and hurt if that birthplace was misunderstood.

To not divert from topic, in clairvision's intepretation of the natal chart, it is mentioned that "It is not rare for people with a strong Sun-Neptune aspect to feel a heart affinity with India, a country in which the values of these combined planets are extremely strong, for better or worse."

This would be an opinion of mind but if I compare my living experiences in America and in the Asian countries I've visited, spirituality (neutral, neither good nor bad) is more prevalent in the Asian countries. There is a higher degree of ambivalence in America.

However it should also be understood that what I mean by spirituality here, doesn't mean more evolved kind of thinking, just that added awareness of the non-physical. It's in the conversations peppered with mentionings of rituals and Gods, the little superstitious gestures, the belief in the afterlife or the transcendental that I see more in Asian countries.

posted June 27, 2009 04:10 PM         

Thanks for understanding that.

"However it's just that the point "I am anti-treating Dalits/Untouchables and any other people like crap" keeps being reiterated when it comes to your opinion about India. If we switch "India" to "America" and vice versa in this thread before posting, to consider that switch in your mind, and maybe it might lessen some of the negativity in this thread."

Hey....I already said that I wouldn't want to live here in USA when they had slavery and segregation laws? What do you expect me to say?

I wasn't slamming the India culture.
I was pointing out the Dalits,caste system issues. That's not slamming the whole India culture. That's like a huge leap of logic.

"Even to a non-Indian person like me, it read like you were associating negativity with India/Indian things. Your aversion to Vedic Astrology stems from the caste system you read about, but Vedic Astrology is astrology, the caste system is the caste system. However, by association, you link the two together."

Vedic Astrology wasn't created by the Dalits/Untouchables. They weren't even allowed to be educated,and so they weren't able to learn Vedic Astrology. Dalits/Untouchables didn't come up with the karma,dharma,reincarnation stuff. Vedic Astrology is a karmic based system.
Dalits/Untouchables had no part of it.

I want to point out that I have never slammed Vedic Astrology. I never said that it was a bad thing.

I just said straight up that I lost my interest in it because of the Dalit stuff and the caste system stuff. It's not necessarily slamming Vedic Astrology. It's just me saying that I am just not interested in it. It's not like I said "you should do this too" I don't do that. People should make up their own minds what to do.

Pointing out the issues of Dalit is not associating with India and negativity things. How is that logical? If somebody points out racism in USA, it's not saying that they are Anti-American.
However, it seems that when people do talk about racism in the USA,...especially a Black person they get seen as Anti-American and even Anti-white. Therefore, it doesn't surprise that I talk about the caste system in India, and I get seen as Anti-Indian. I believe that to be bullcrap. It's like trying to make a blanket cover accusation or stretching what I say to make something even bigger when I talking about a specific detail. I think there seems to be a problem with society with taking a certain detail of what a person says then stretching it that they mean something much bigger,and then slamming them for it.

"Venus, by association, also read your words negatively. I'm not trying to defend her nor attack you, but giving a bit of my opinion on a thread I've been reading. Perhaps, maybe there is a small chance that your words touched on sensitive issues and could have been phrased more sensitively? I read the same Natl Geographic articles years ago and was saddened by it too but it didn't repulse me from India."

"I know you've mention that you posted in a detached, unemotional way, but might not that be the reason you didn't realise your words could have been a touch prickly if a native of India were to read them? Would you be willing to consider that point of view, Glaucus?"

"We all hope to express our opinions and be respected for them, freedom of words after all. But sometimes, that freedom has to be wielded sensitively. "With great power, comes great responsibility." Says the good old Uncle Parker in Spider-man"

Like I said before,....if a Northern person was speaking out against slavery and segregation laws in the South, it would anger a lot of southerners. It wouldn't matter how they say it.

Do you think that there were a lot of Southerners angry with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's I HAVE A DREAM SPEECH speaking out against the segregation laws in the South. Hell yeah...there were. I didn't matter that Dr. King was calling for unity and wasn't saying that the South was all bad nor that all white people were bad. There were people that viewed him as not just anti-South, but also anti-American and anti-white. Some viewed him as a communist too.
In his later years, he spoke out against the Vietnam war. He was definitely viewed as being a communist by many. It didn't matter how he spoke whether it was "sensitively" or not, a lot of people were angry with him. It wasn't like he wasn't loved by all. The man was very controversial as many civil rights leaders were.

"Well to be fair to India, other European countries do practice forms of classification. Dukes, Marquess, Earls, Viscounts and Barons? That's just the peerage, below that would be the bourgeosie and then the peasants."

"Of course nowadays we don't have people who call themselves peasants anymore, it's not the 18th century...but the peerage still exists, with glamour intact."

but we're not talking Europe in the thread. It was about India. Furthermore, those classifications are more about titles,ceremonial stuff with no power. They might have a lot of money. They have no political clout. That can be easily said for European monarchies. United Kingdom easily comes to my mind.

"Even in America, it's not overtly raised but among the different ethnicities (I prefer that word to race) there are also stereotypes/classifications. Stereotypes are not only projected but also internalised, so sometimes it would be difficult to detect.
I worked there for a few months and I could see this "pecking" system when "Whites", "Blacks", "Latinos", "Asians" and more work together, in that order.
I was like a Dalit in America lol. There were some discrimination against me, even unfair behaviour that I couldn't do much about, but that was part and parcel of the American life I led. I would say I even wouldn't have traded some of the experiences of being discriminated it felt bad but it opened my eyes."

Just be glad that we don't have slavery here nor segregation laws. I am sorry for any discrimination that you have had against you. Discrimination can come in all kinds of forms...not just race,ethnicity, but also gender,sexual preference,religion,etc.

I already pointed out those issues in USA. I even said that I wouldn't want to live here in USA when they had slavery and segregation laws. I even said that I would even rebel against it. I already said that racism is still a problem here in USA.

"So I don't even know if people will bother reading my post but my point is India has its draws and murkier aspects. It isn't just like every other country because each country is unique, therefore we can't judge it with similar standards, but instead try to understand the complexities and facets that each country has with regards to culture, history, people and more."

Yeah...I know...but my point was that India is not some spiritually advanced/old soul country.
Karma,dharma,reincarnation shouldn't be used to condone the mistreatment of people.
Dalits are being oppressed in India. Nearly 200 million Dalits in India. Also...Dalits also oppressed in other countries where Hinduism is greatly present like in Nepal.

"To not divert from topic, in clairvision's intepretation of the natal chart, it is mentioned that "It is not rare for people with a strong Sun-Neptune aspect to feel a heart affinity with India, a country in which the values of these combined planets are extremely strong, for better or worse."

I don't know why on earth they said that. I strongly doubt that my relatives that have Sun-Neptune aspects have any affinity with India.

"This would be an opinion of mind but if I compare my living experiences in America and in the Asian countries I've visited, spirituality (neutral, neither good nor bad) is more prevalent in the Asian countries. There is a higher degree of ambivalence in America."

"However it should also be understood that what I mean by spirituality here, doesn't mean more evolved kind of thinking, just that added awareness of the non-physical. It's in the conversations peppered with mentionings of rituals and Gods, the little superstitious gestures, the belief in the afterlife or the transcendental that I see more in Asian countries."

"Quite Neptunian I think."

It's all relative imho

I am highly Neptune myself

I am not in any organized religion.

I go to Spiritual Life Center, an interfaith unity church ....it's more about people that are spiritual instead of religious

any ways....I haven't really said anything harsh about the culture in India. I only pointed out the Dalit issues in India.

Many Dalits have harsh words to say about India and its culture. I already pointed that out.
Dr. Velu Annamalai definitely did, and he even said that Hinduism is sanctified racism. So maybe you should go write/email to him and tell him all that you said to me in regards to India?
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=4735E232A822C06C&search_query=black+untouchabl es

so if you and others want to lecture my butt on this India generalization stuff that I didn't really do,
then you should go and lecture to those Dalits...especially Dr. Velu Annamalai.

I'd think venusdeindia should be going off on Dr. Annamalai and not me. He is the one that has the really harsh words to say about India,Hinduism,and Gandhi.

you can even go and lecture to the Dalit Freedom Network about this stuff.

here is their site http://www.dalitnetwork.org/

Not everybody is going to like what a person says. That's just life.

posted June 27, 2009 04:34 PM         

I certainly didn`t want to "educate" you.
I don`t think you specifically generalize things; not at all.
I know I addressed my last post at you, but somehow I got carried away. So the point about generalization wasn`t directed at you personally.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that India is not the only country with social problems (of cousre India is the subject here, I know) and I wanted to state my personal opinion, that I can be deeply impressed by some spiritual aspects of a nation, even though I don`t agree with parts (or the whole) of their social or political system.
And I am convinced there are deeply caring, tolerant and open people living in India, like those people exist in every part of the world.
Having said that I also want to make it clear that I of course don`t agree with the idea of a caste you are born into.
BUT to be honest I don`t know enough about that system to really discuss it here.

Oh and yes I know there is not ONE Africa, but I didn`t want to make a long list of all possible countries. So this time it was me who generalized. Mea culpa.

posted June 27, 2009 05:41 PM         

Well there are numerous evil things done by many institutions across world which we associate in one or the other way like Vatican autocratic rule and their numerous atrocities done on people who were termed as mad scientist against god, witches, anti social and many other terms, then there are innumerable atrocities done by British rule in various parts of the world where the had ruled, Many nations had crossed the limits and done great damage to mankind in both world war 1 and 2, Apartheid policy in South Africa, Dictator rulers in Soviet, Wars fought by US in Vietnam, Iraq, so the more we search negative the more we find atrocities, inequality, bloodshed, deaths, killings, conspiracy, fraud, and so on....

If we search for positive then we will find people in love irrespective of their differences, people striving for uplift of poor, leading a simple way of living, creating opportunity for better world, strive strive strive then we will be inspired by many Avatar's and Guru's, look at positive and positive and only positive.

We are what we believe, we believe what we think, we think what we imagine...

Well The Four Vedas, Upanishads which include Vedic astrology, Yoga, Ayurveda, and many other subjects of knowledge, then we Zen, Tai-chi, Kung fu and many popular logical concepts based on nature and universe which were formed to understand the nature and universe, I don't think the intellectuals who had worked on these subjects had ever imagined that there work will be associated with hatred and negative stuffs. There are thoughts from two kind of minds : narrow mind and open mind. We need to keep open mind to discuss else it becomes argument.
Argument lead to fight and Discussion leads to understanding. So it's up to us to decide either of this.

posted June 28, 2009 03:41 PM         

Yes! I remember. Thanks for reminding me.
I watched the movie,"The Secret", and that same point was made.

I refrain from using anti as a pronoun and use pro as a pronoun for the desired positive term like anti-racism would be pro-racial harmony.

posted June 29, 2009 05:52 PM         

Thanks and Good to see your positive response.

posted July 02, 2009 08:01 PM         

Gay sex is just now being decriminalized in New Delhi, but not in other parts of India http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090702/ap_on_re_as/as_india_gay_rights

Gay Rights March in India http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090628/ap_on_re_as/as_india_gay_parade

posted July 04, 2009 01:32 PM         

Indian cuisine happens to be one of my fav cuisines, the spicier the better

Indian music, if you are sensitive enough to understand it's complexities has a way of infiltrating the core of your soul, if that's not mysterious enough then I dont know what is!!! (Ravi Shankar and the sitar, Zakir Hussein and the tabla?!!!)

Indian Cinema (Who haven't heard of Sharoukh Khan, Shammi Kapoor, the ever beautiful Rekha, Kamal Hassan and ofcourse, Amitab Batchan?!!!)

Inian clothes, fabrics, sari's, Kurtas and embroidery.

From a personal viewpoint, Indian people to me are are the most humble and down to earth people.

A country that has more than 17 languages and 8 religions and they all coexist has to have something special and different about it.

As to oppression, sexism and classism, which society doesn't suffer from these regardless how advanced and so called "Civilised" it may be termed under today's standards?

The problem with Americans is that they tend to look at the world from where they are sitting and compare it to their own country and way of life, Democracy may be the norm here but not necessarily the preferred choice and way of life in other countries, you talk about sexism and oppression like they dont exist in America, like society is not based on classes from your Elite to your Welfare recipent citizens ... If you dislike India due to how the Dalit's are being treated then you dislike China due to their treatment of the Tibetan's, and Russia due to their treatment of the Chechnians, you dislike Turkey due to it's treatment of Kurds, Armenians and Cypriots, you dislike Morocco due to their treatment of the Sahrawies if that's the case then you dislike the whole entire world!!!

(I wouldn't want to live there) I dont recall anyone asking you to live anywhere.

The most pathetic thing I have read was: (Many people have problems with education and that's why they are not employed and not everybody on welfare is lazy LMFAO)

It serves you right to defend them, I am not going to say more, it's crystal clear

As for not visiting because you are a fair skinned lady, I have never heard any bad reviews from people who visited India, they all enjoyed it because they obviously visited the safe and famous tourist places where you normally should go as a tourist.

VenusDeLionesse, I admire how you stepped up and defended your country against all the ignorance that was spewed here, I applaud you

posted July 04, 2009 05:47 PM         

I appreciate you words of wisdom regarding India and World.

There are certain people who are so occupied with their life, their roots, their region, their tradition, their religion that in process they for get about nature and universal truth that we all choose different ways which all lead to the one supreme.
We all have enough reason to be together in peace and harmony but we look at the few reason with which we waste our energy in hatred and fight.

posted July 04, 2009 05:50 PM         

We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made.
-Albert Einstein

If I were asked under what sky the human mind has most fully developed some of its choicest gifts, has most deeply pondered on the greatest problems of life, and has found solutions, I should point to India.
- Max Mueller (German scholar)

Mark Twain said: India is, the cradle of the human race, the birthplace of human speech, the mother of history, the grandmother of legend, and the great grand mother of tradition. Our most valuable and most instructive materials in the history of man are treasured up in India only.

The land of dreams and romance, of fabulous wealth and fabulous poverty, of splendour and rags, of palaces and hovels, of famine and pestilence, of genii and giants and Aladdin lamps, of tigers and elephants, the cobra and the jungle, the country of hundred nations and a hundred tongues, of a thousand religions and two million gods, cradle of the human race, birthplace of human speech, mother of history, grandmother of legend, great-grandmother of traditions, whose yesterday's bear date with the modering antiquities for the rest of nations-the one sole country under the sun that is endowed with an imperishable interest for alien prince and alien peasant, for lettered and ignorant, wise and fool, rich and poor, bond and free, the one land that all men desire to see, and having seen once, by even a glimpse, would not give that glimpse for the shows of all the rest of the world combined.
- Mark Twain

French scholar Romain Rolland said: If there is one place on the face of earth where all the dreams of living men have found a home from the very earliest days when man began the dream of existence, it is India.

When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous.
- Albert Einstein

India - The land of Vedas, the remarkable works contain not only religious ideas for a perfect life, but also facts which science has proved true. Electricity, radium, electronics, airship, all were known to the seers who founded the Vedas.
- Wheeler Wilcox (American poet)