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Author Topic:   Let's Talk About- Lilith-The Dark Feminine
vertiver
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posted July 20, 2010 12:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for vertiver     Edit/Delete Message
I've tended to gloss over this asteroid, with no intention of delving deeper into the mythology of Lilith nor looking at transits of this Asteroid, that is until now. I found some interesting info that I want to share:

quote:
Psychologically, Lilith brings up deep and primal issues like unbound sexual power, repressed feelings of rejection and rage, and yet refusal to submit. In a ‘Lilith state’, we are very irrational, but sometimes it seems as if that’s what it takes to bring out the truth from underneath. Perimenstrual times can guide us women to Lilith’s realm. I would suggest acknowledging themes that come up, and finding a safe, creative and transformational outlet.

I'm currently going through a dual Lilith transit. T. Venus is conjunct my natal Lilith and T. Lilith is conjunct N. Moon. I must say that out of thin air this jealous and sex-crazed side has come out of me. I'm not much of the irrational and jealous type but lately its been obvious. I can only relate this to Lilith, Primal instincts are at the forefront at the moment.

Anyone else delved deeper into Lilith?

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Ami Ann
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posted July 20, 2010 01:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Ann     Edit/Delete Message
That is really interesting !
I have it as an exact conjunction on someone's sun.
That person brings up those deep primal feelings in me.
Honestly, I don't even know they are there.
I am an example of someone who repressed their "lower"side.
I became a head and no body---you could say.
This is not good and leads to all sorts of physical and mental problems lol
Now, I am TRYING to feel the primal, instinctual parts of myself but it is hard cuz I was programmed to think they were bad ,not human.

Ami

------------------
I am two with nature.

Eighth House Stellium

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iQ
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posted July 20, 2010 01:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for iQ     Edit/Delete Message
Read about Lilith in detail here: www.alloya.com, download the free e-book "Her Perspective".
Lilith is Pure Feminine Power which becomes dark for oppressors. In many ways Lilith = a less destructive form of Kaali.

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belgz
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posted July 20, 2010 01:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for belgz     Edit/Delete Message
I have all the liliths in my 5th!

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popcorn
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posted July 20, 2010 03:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for popcorn     Edit/Delete Message
I've BMl in house 5 conj my ceres, osc true in house 6 sextile my chiron and asteroid lilith conj my angel and DC in house 7.

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Glaucus
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posted July 20, 2010 03:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

are you talking about asteroid 1181 Lilith?

There is also black moon lilith which is the lunar apogee (there is numerous versions: mean, true, natural corrected)

there is also dark moon lilith which is a hypothetical object

asteroid 1181 Lilith in 9'37 Scorpio in 3rd
square Lunar Nodes in 10'30 Aquarius/Leo in 5th/11th

mean black moon lilith in 16'48 Libra in 2nd
conjunct Uranus in 15'17 Libra in 2nd

natural black moon lilith in 12'57 Libra in 2nd
conjunct Uranus in 15'17 Libra in 2nd
oppose Eris in 12'15 Aries R in 8th

true black moon lilith R in 5'42 Scorpio in 2nd
conjunct Ixion in 5'25 Scorpio in 2nd
conjunct Sun in 5'20 Scorpio in 2nd


I also checked the geocentric and heliocentric nodes of the asteroid lilith


Geocentric North 1181 asteroid Lilith Node in 10'30 Sagittarius
oppose/conjunct Midheaven/Imum Coeli in 11'14 Gemini/Sagittarius
sextile/trine Lunar Nodes in 10'30 Aquarius/Leo in 5th/11th
trine Chiron in 10'32 Aries R in 8th


no aspects to Geocentric South Lilith Node
no aspects to Heliocentric Lilith Nodes


if you take the astronomy into consideration

the lunar apogee has a lunar influence, and so has to do with emotions,feelings,sensitivity,intuition,nurturing,mothering....but its like the shadow side
after all, the lunar apogee is the furthest point of the Moon's orbit from the Earth


apogee = furthest point of an object's orbit from the Earth
perigree = nearest point of an object's orbit to the Earth

aphelion = furthest point of an object's orbit from the Sun
perihelion = nearest point of an object's orbit to the Sun


therefore, logically
if lunar apogee is the black moon
then Mercury apogee/aphelion is the black Mercury
then Venus apogee/aphelion is the black Venus
then Mars apogee/aphelion is the black Mars
then Jupiter apogee/aphelion is the black Jupiter
then Saturn apogee/aphelion is the black Saturn
then Uranus apogee/aphelion is the black Uranus
then Neptune apogee/aphelion is the black Neptune


then Pluto apogee/aphelion is the black Pluto
same with the other transneptunians

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind. http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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popcorn
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posted July 20, 2010 03:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for popcorn     Edit/Delete Message
.

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iQ
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posted July 20, 2010 03:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for iQ     Edit/Delete Message
Popcorn,
Your experience of BML conj CERES is spot on.
After plenty of grappling with BML and Asteroid Lilith [1181], I have come to understand that BML is Lilith Energy played out from the subconscious Mind and Asteroid Lilith is conscious manifestation of SUBTLE characteristics of Lilith, these will magnify if conjunct a planet, especially Venus.


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Glaucus
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posted July 20, 2010 03:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

I think Lilith has more to do with social issues

it's an asteroid that orbits between Mars and Jupiter


------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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Glaucus
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posted July 20, 2010 03:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
LILITH AND THE BLACK MOON
by Juan Antonio Revilla

I. The True or Osculating Black Moon.

The true or osculating Black Moon is "a new arrival" into the pile of astrological "bodies" or sensitive points. It arrived in the early 90's, when it began to appear in published tables, at the same time than the centaurs. Like the centaurs, it requires research, hard work, and time. However, it is often neglected in place of the "mean" value, either because a lack of understanding of how fictitious the mean Black Moon is, or from the empirical evidence that validates it.

The Mean Apogee or Black Moon is an artifice, like the "fictitious Mean Sun" used by astronomers for the measurement of time. It moves very regularly, describing a perfect circle around the earth/moon barycenter (not the earth). Its movement is actually as round and regular as the hands of a clock and it is very easy to calculate. This roundness of its motion is not a good representative of the nocturnal and magic demoness Lilith; roundness and steady motion belongs to the Sun; it is alien to the world of the Moon.

The Osculating Apogee, on the other hand, represents the shape of the lunar orbit at one specific instant of time. It is not averaged as the mean apogee, and it is already geocentric, unlike the mean apogee. Some people reject it because it doesn't make any sense to them to have it swing as much as 30 degrees from the mean position and have abrupt and irregular changes of velocity and direction, but I think it is precisely this erratic behavior what makes it the best representative of the irrational, instinctive, and primal symbolism of Lilith.

This True Black Moon does not have the decades of astrological and interpretative elaboration that the Mean Black Moon has. It has been available only after 1992. You won't find simplistic formulas to make its interpretation easy. It requires research and willingness to try the new. It needs not receive the conventional meanings given to the round and astronomically featureless Mean Black Moon; but, as far as I am concerned, is the best symbolical representative of the demonical, nocturnal, and primal Lilith.

NOTE: for a long and detailed discussion of the astronomical difficulties and alternatives involved in the definition of the Black Moon, see my old compilation "An Astronomical Discussion of the Black Moon Lilith". For an answer to the common objections to the use of the osculating apogee, see my latest essay " Variants of the Apogee".


II. Astronomical Symbolism.

One important distinction is that the apogee/perigee axis is very different from the ascending/descending nodes axis, because at the nodes there is an intersection of 2 planes, like a meeting, or a door from one level to another, or a confluence of 2 worlds (the lunar and the earth realms).

But the apogee or the empty focus of the lunar orbit is a purely lunar realm. It is not in contact with anything. It is only the Moon per se, in isolation from everything else... therefore they are different concepts or orbital symbols. The apogee/empty focus (="kenofocus") is really like a womb, a receptacle, an accumulator, a point of emptiness...

As part of the "emptiness", this empty focus is also the place of dreams, the garden of desires, the pot at the end of the rainbow, the "impossible dream", the "primal mate", the twin-soul, etc... but this place is very, very dangerous... it can devour you like a whirlpool!

NOTE: everything here refers to the osculating lunar apogee, not the mean apogee. If astronomical symbolism must match astrological symbolism, then the mean apogee is very alien to this symbolism.

Astronomically, the Black Moon is an isolated point, a point of neglect, repression, fermentation, and "magical" transformations that belong to a phantasmal, nocturnal, and instinctive/erotic world. It contains all the more instinctual energies (including the atavistic wisdom and clairvoyance, which is dependent on bodily functions) deep within the psyche, of which sexuality is of course paramount, and which manifest themselves in fairy tales and in primitive lunar symbolism: the night, the mystery, the magic, the danger, the secret, the fear, that which is forbidden...

There is a dynamics between the 2 foci, they are seeing each other, like 2 twins, although one is physical and has weight while the other is absent and ghostly. It represents an absence, a ghost, an emptiness, like the emptiness of the womb or an unattainable ideal. Seen dynamically, there will be important differences between men and women... which is part of the dynamics of the 2 foci seen each other and getting polarized, fighting against a ghost and against emptiness, or trying to attain its invisible and ideal part.

One way of seeing its more negative manifestations, thinking on the "neglect" and "emptiness" of the empty focus of the Moon's orbit, is that the Black Moon is a reaction against the "reproductive" and mothering role which "chains" women and leaves them "empty" as individuals. Lilith can be seen as the polar opposite of this kind of woman, which, in turn, is a reaction against all sorts of forces that try to castrate a person.


III. The Psychological Realm of the Great Mother.

Pshychologically, the symbolism of Lilith belongs to the Mother Archetype, especially in its manifestations of the Terrible Mother. Let me make a few short quotes from Jung in "Psychological aspects of the Mother Archetype":

<<Evil symbols are the witch, the dragon (or any devouring and entwining animal, such as a large fish or a serpent), the grave, the sarcophagus, deep water, death, nightmares and bogies (Empusa, Lilith, etc.)...>>

<<On the negative side the mother archetype may connote anything secret, hidden, dark; the abyss, the world of the dead, anything that devours, seduces, and poisons, that is terrifying and inescapable like fate.>>

<<The effects of the mother complex on the son may be seen in the ideology of the Cybele and Attis type: self-castration, madness, and early death.>>

The following quote by another Jungian (Eric Neumann, in "The Origins and History of Consciousness") can almost be read as some modern astrological descriptions of Lilith:

<<Thus the Great Mother is uroboric: terrible and devouring, beneficent and creative; a helper, but also alluring and destructive; a maddening enchantress, yet a bringer of wisdom; bestial and divine, voluptuous harlot and inviolable virgin, immemorially old and eternally young...>>

Jung divided the "mother complex" as it manifests in women in 4 different types (which I always related to the 4 "big four" traditional asteroids). Lilith incarnates several aspects of what Jung calls "the overdeveloped eros", which can manifest like, for example, a tendency toward "the unscrupulous wrecking of marriages". It often is the reaction against the purely instinctive and all-devouring "thrall of nature" mother:

<<The reactive intensification of the daughter's eros is aimed at some man who ought to be rescued from the preponderance of the female-maternal element in his life...>> (id.)

NOTE: for an illustration of the "terrible/castrating mother" astrological role of the Black Moon, read the material on "Tchaikovsky and the Black Moon".

The Black Moon takes hold of our emotions. It is a reactive point, never a point of integration. As such, it can cause strong identifications or very powerful projections of unconscious emotions which may not be recognized as such. My feeling is that the Black Moon always works at this reactive level.

Many of the characteristics of the Black Moon --and of the character of the legendary Lilith-- can be explained with the principle of "reaction formation ", defined as "an internal defense mechanism in which a no longer gratifiable motive (or one gratifiable only under threat of punishment) is replaced by a motive at the other end of the existing continuum" [ref.: "Dictionary of Psychology", Vol. 2, p.907, ed. Eysenck, Arnold and Meili, Fontana/Collins, 1975]

[The authors give the following explanation: <<Primitive manipulation wishes (e.g. daubing) no longer satisfiable as formerly are released through violent desire for contact (which occurs much more often because of its minimal satisfaction value), prodigality through thrift, obscenity through extreme politeness, disappointed love through malevolent pursuit of the beloved. Characteristics of reaction formation are the lack of ordinary, average forms of motive satisfaction and the inability to take advantage of the many possibilities of satisfaction as circumstances change, except by rigid adherence to extreme forms of gratification.>>]


IV. Atavistic wisdom and clairvoyance.

The astronomical counterpart of the earth is the Sun, not the empty focus of the lunar orbit. Integration is always in the direction of the Sun. The astrological Moon is where the unconscious emotions may become conscious, but the Black Moon, isolated and hot/cold, fire and ice, Unicorn-like, is like a place where there is never light, where it is always dreamy, like the dark side of the Moon. For this reason it may be a point where "consciousness" and energy may concentrate, but it is a slumber type of consciousness, an "entrance" into a world where knowledge is acquired by dreaming, not by thinking...

The way I'm using "magic" regarding the Black Moon is in the more traditional sense, related to occultism and "ancient" magicians like the legendary Merlin. This is to me the realm of the Black Moon, which we can see full-blown in legends, myths, and fairy tales. They all talk of things that are very "real" but not physical, or belonging to a time when the Earth itself was not as physical as today, and when people lived more in the astral than in the physical plane. In a nutshell, it is the "astral" or imaginative world, where things do indeed change shape constantly.

I believe that, today, we misinterpret many of the ancient --even medieval-- traditions and legends because we expect them to refer to a world like ours, while the truth --to me-- is that pre-enlightenment people had an atavistic clairvoyance and wisdom, which in occultism is related to the dark Moon and dark Sun forces-- that allowed them to perceive many things that people today do not perceive any more. The Dark or Black Moon, because of its astronomical symbolism, is for me the best tool there is to represent this "occult" level of reality, the world that is at the other side of the mirror, or, if you want it, the "Twilight Zone".

They had access to levels of perception that we don't have today, or only few people have what was common for them: atavistic wisdom and clairvoyance. Becuase of this, we "explain out" what looks as fantasy for us, ignoring that it was real experience for them. For example, succubi and incubi ("evil" Lilithian spirits) do exist today as they did back then, but because we do not normally perceive or "see" them (they can be perceived and seen in action under abnormal circumstances), we *believe* they are just "childish" explanations of their fears or lack of psychological and medical knowledge. There is a fashion today of "angels", which looks quite shallow when we realize how much the dark side of the spirit world is ignored, making it more powerful.

Bats represent this very well, for example, or gargoyles, among many other things The demoness Lilith and her different guises --putting aside the modern feminist approach which pretends to wipe the "demon" part-- is to me a very good mythological figure for this.

Like Hekate, the Black Moon is a "Queen of the Night", and negatively it is demonic (black magic) and vampiresque, while positively it is related to sexual initiation and transformational magic, a symbolic and oniric/artistic/imaginative world of primal wisdom that resists rationalization.


V. Lilith and the demon world.

Often, regarding Lilith, the traditional negative or "demonic" associations are rejected as being the result of the judeo-christian "male superiority" and "ego" ideologies. But this doesn't change to me the fact that there are still many demons inside of both men and women, and that the world of the night with all its mystery and magic still exists, although in areas and in ways different from those of the past.

Neither "castration" nor "sexuality" are limited to genitality. Especially from the mythical Lilith point of view, associated with the Genesis story, where sexuality marks the beginning of consciousness. I still feel that Lilith is strongly related to a woman's man inside, and man's woman inside, and how one deals with that. "Demons" are treated differently today, seen more as social and psychological projections, but they are still at work in man and in woman, and are strongly related to sexuality, like consciousness. We all have our nights, our night-world. I would personally never loose sight of the symbolism of the night regarding the Black Moon. In my book, Lilith is never fully alive and awake. That is the Sun. A Lilithan person can become solar, but Lilith must remain Lilith.

"Demons", "castration", "darkness", psychological "vampirism", "succubi" and "incubi", and all the other "terrible mother" manifestations associated with the demonic "evil" aspect of Lilith are all part of the psyche of men and women, appearing today in different guises, and the "Black"/"Dark" Moon are excellent astrological and astronomical symbols for them. To me, the Black Moon belongs to the world of the dark and the womb, in both its terrible and its more positive transformational magic aspects.

I am not saying that the Black Moon is *only* this. All the modern psychological interpretations of ancient demonical and magical lore, are another face of the same thing, which can be both very "good" and very "evil". By ignoring our shadows we make them more powerful.

Powerlessness and abuse suffered in early life can create very strong reaction formations that make people "hate" their own vulnerability and feelings, and this can manifest outward as feelings against those that show these traits. All this can be very complicated, "twisted", and dark. Sexuality is often the playground of unconscious reactions of this type, and the more negative or demonic traits of the Lilith legend can be (and are often in the literature) explained this way.


VI. The Emancipation of Women

I feel the Black Moon is also related to the emancipation of women from their "womb" destiny, their sexual liberation. But the Black Moon is a reactive point astronomically, a point where a lot of energy can concentrate but which cannot "integrate" or "bring liberation" by itself. It is more like a pot, or a pit... it cannot be "an integrated woman". That is why I think the modern "redemptive" transformations of the Lilith figure are probably better seen in other bodies capable of transcendence (unlike the Black Moon), such as the centaurs

A girl may have a reactive defense mechanism against the mother, and refuse to submit to "nature", especially if she doesn't feel loved by his father. A loving and strong father will make her use her masculinity to fight integratively in a harmonious assertion of her womanhood. Then probably other feminine asteroids take over, those that deal with a woman's creative role in the community (the main belt), or with transcendent excursions into the prohibited or illicit regions of the centaurs (and to a larger extent, of the Damocloids). These are the ones that break the rules and jump fences and tabus.

The Black Moon is not a dynamic point. It is only reactive, an accumulator or attractor. If it becomes too strong, or if the woman identifies with the Lilith archetype too much, then it becomes a point of rejection and negation, like a no-Moon, an anti-Moon. Perhaps it could be seen as the point where a woman's "destiny in chains" consequence of her "womb" or of her enslaved sexuality is trying to engulf her, and the result may be either the acceptance of her own and ancestral past and its creative transcendence by "jumping" into the more dynamic world of the (also dark) asteroids and centaurs, or the surrender to the neurotic identification with an archetype (in this case, Lilith).

The Lilith archetype, then, can be found in several different astronomical bodies or points, each expressing a different aspect of the archetype according to its astronomical and orbital symbolism. I have often expressed my opinion that there are Lilithian overtones in the centaur Chariklo, for example. Recall my keywords for Chariklo:

matriarchate, the Queen of spades, mature passions sadness, widowhood, illicit love caring for the sick, the dying, the weak sober celebration, moral emancipation and freedom .

There are probably many Lilith associations of the Black Moon that belong more properly to the asteroid 1181 Lilith or to centaurs like Chariklo. Astronomically speaking, 1181 is a social asteroid, but the Black Moon is not a social point. I think a separation is useful, and perhaps sexual equality issues are better measured by the asteroid or by the female centaurs, since it has to do with the (changing) values and costumes in a society.

The Damocloids (1999RG33, 1999LD31, etc) for example, not yet named and more assertive (and with better calculated orbits) than the centaurs, look as very good candidates to incarnate the more tabu and prejudice-breaking aspects of Lilith's modern (good and evil) transformations.

The level in which the Black Moon (not necessarily Lilith!) works is very primal and stemming from sexuality and body-energies --which is not the same as genitality-- while the asteroid 1181 Lilith is (or should be from its astronomical characteristics) more concerned with community or more social issues. The Black Moon is more related to the past, to the origins, to the "uroboric mother".


VII. Conclusions.

When I first started to visualize the centaurs, because of their orbits which can be associated with jetsam, chaos, and fragmentation (also, mythologically, with what is "raw" and wild), I felt that the "shadow" aspect of our personality, memory, history, etc., could be related to them. I still feel that way, but as my mind began to settle about what of the alternative "Black Moons" to use, I am beginning to incorporate its symbolism, which, obviously, works at a different level than the centaurs, the level of the Lunar world in the "occult" way, i.e., more a function of the womb-mother-body energies, including atavistic wisdom and dream-like spiritual perception.

With the centaurs, as with the Black Moon, something similar happens when dealing with the idea of "fragmentation" which they --among many other things-- represent. Their action CAN result in a further and higher integration of the individual, but this integration, at least in my opinion, is no longer them, but other planets, especially Jupiter and the Sun. It is the Sun what represents the spiritual individuality. Lilith --the empty focus of the Moon-- could never represent that.

I have always argued for a differentiation or separation of levels when one is interpreting, i.e., an asteroid cannot be interpreted in the same level than the empty focus of the Moon's orbit (the true osculating Black Moon), in the same way than a centaur or trans-neptunian cannot be interpreted like a main-belt asteroid.

Perhaps it is here where the role of the Lilithian asteroids becomes important. They represent higher levels of the Lilith function, from the Hekates and Lilith-likes of the main belt working on the social-community level to the feminine centaurs breaking all the rules and transgressing the established moralities, giving the archetype Lilith the opportunity to be free from the emptiness of the lunar womb, and become really cosmic, a "citizen of the galaxy".


Juan Antonio Revilla
San José, Costa Rica, June 27, 2000
revised June 2003.

SUMMARY

1-) The lunar apogee or "Black Moon" and the archetype "Lilith" are not the same thing. Lilith extends beyond the lunar realm and transcends it, it can manifest in different asteroids/planets or astrological factors. Especially the more redemptive aspects of Lilith (the emancipation of women) cannot belong to the lunar apogee (NOTE: this is developed at length here)

2-) The symbolism of the Black Moon cannot go beyond what the Moon represents, and it is not the Moon but a "ghost", a point of its orbit that is isolated. It is not a planet in its orbit, but a reflection of it "that is not there", a point that is empty, a no-Moon.

3-) Psychologically, it is a point that represents how we react to its emptiness, isolation, and unapproachability. But we don't react with it, we react with what we are equipped with (planets, the Sun especially). The reaction can "make us free" from it or redeem us, or it can drag us towards it like a whirlpool.

4-) The Black Moon is totally lunar, it is the dark/oniric aspect of the lunar realm. Each astrological factor has its own scope, it belongs to its own sphere or realm. The "emancipation" of Lilith, symbolically, is Lilith being liberated from the Black Moon, which is its cage.


NOTE: see my recent essay "Variants of the Apogee".
http://expreso.co.cr/centaurs/blackmoon/lilith.html

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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DD
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posted July 20, 2010 04:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
I liked what the Forrests wrote in one of their books about the Moon.

"The Moon has teeth and claws".

It is shedding light onto a different shade of the Moon, where we usually consider Moon energy to be all motherly, cuddly, soft and caring and tender, we sometimes forget the "dark side of the moon", the raw, instinctual, edgy one. This "dark side of the moon" could maybe find expression in the Black Moon, too. Just a thought.


Personally asteroid Lilith is interesting in my chart.

Lilith on 6°38 Virgo
conjuncs
Hekate on 8°01 Virgo

trine

Venus on 6°07 Cap
Osiris on 7°50 Cap
Isis on 8°32 Cap

trine

Lucifer on 6°49 Taurus

I do agree with Glaucus though, I think the asteroid Lilith may be different from the Black Moon, not as much operating from an instinctual level, but more so about social causes, especially equality.

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popcorn
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posted July 20, 2010 06:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for popcorn     Edit/Delete Message
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vertiver
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posted July 20, 2010 03:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for vertiver     Edit/Delete Message
I agree Popcorn that Lilith is more a sexual energy than what has been assumed.

And Ami, I can relate to repressing the more primal side. As a heavily 8th house influenced person like youself (and myself), the 8th house is all about the primal and instinctual and a planet like Mercury has a hard time expressing its mercurian qualities in such an intense house. For the most part I am a very private person and it has taken me years to finally open up to others and truly manifest more leoine energy.

In my chart asteroid Lilith is exactly conjunct Vesta in the 9th house and trine Neptune (1st) and sextile Pluto (11th).

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DD
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posted July 20, 2010 06:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
I am really unsure about the differences between Black Moon Lilith and asteroid Lilith though.

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Benedict Moon*
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posted July 20, 2010 06:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Benedict Moon*     Edit/Delete Message
I have been trying to delve deeper into Lilith, as I realized a year and a half back that all three of her representatives (BML, True BML, and the asteroid) are conjunct my 8th house Moon. It would explain why most Virgo Moon descriptions totally miss the mark for me, and most Cancer Sun/Virgo Moon descriptions are much the same.

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Glaucus
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posted July 20, 2010 09:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
"I am really unsure about the differences between Black Moon Lilith and asteroid Lilith though."

I think that's easy if you consider the astronomy.

Black Moon Lilith is the lunar apogee, and so it's based on only the Moon. Therefore, it has lunar qualities to it. The symbolism of the Moon greatly applies to it.

It doesn't even make sense to really view its opposite, the Lunar Perigree and name it Priapus after a god of male sexuality. After all, the lunar perigree is the point of the Moon's orbit nearest to the Earth. The Moon appears larger,brighter when the Moon is at perigree. If anything, the female symbolism would be much stronger for the Lunar Perigree.

so yeah, I scratch my head a lot when I read about the lunar perigree as Priapus.

It really ignores Astronomical reality.
After all, every object has its nearest and distant points in their orbital period. Therefore, all of them have a perigree,apogee,perihelon,aphelion.

I don't really see the black moon Lilith as having sexual overtones. I just see the strong female symbolism that include a strong shadow side that includes a nonconformist and rebellious when it comes to things of patriarchal nature. The equality thing. I'd think that sensitivity,intuition are things that can be associated with the black moon lilith.


the Lilith asteroid is located between Mars and Jupiter. Asteroids that orbit between the personal planet, Mars and the social planet, Jupiter would seem about bridge between the personal and the social.


I don't think the asteroids really contribute much on their own. I think that they are more like fine details like the chromosomes,genes that make up the body.


I think of Black Moon Lilith as the strong feminine feelings that lead to desire for equal rights for females.

I think of Lilith asteroid as the social issues themselves connected to desire for equal rights for females.


------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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vertiver
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posted July 21, 2010 01:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for vertiver     Edit/Delete Message
I just figured out how to find Black Moon Lilith on Astro.com.

My BML is in the 8th house at 22' degrees Leo, but its says it RX, how can that be? And the only aspect it makes is a sextile to my natal Venus.

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Glaucus
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posted July 21, 2010 02:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
"My BML is in the 8th house at 22' degrees Leo, but its says it RX, how can that be? And the only aspect it makes is a sextile to my natal Venus. "

You must be looking at the true BML aka osculating lunar apogee. It goes retrograde often unlike the mean BML aka mean lunar apogee.

I have my true BML retrograde in 5'42 Scorpio conjunct my Sun in 5'20 Scorpio.

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
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squirrel
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posted July 21, 2010 07:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for squirrel     Edit/Delete Message
Lilith is really fascinating.

Mine is in 8th house, exactly conjuncting Vertex in Gemini and trining Pluto in Libra.

I think that description of Lilith in Gemini is very true, at least in my case. I value mental stimulation more than anything else. I experience almost everything through my imagination where things are free and not serious at all

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DD
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posted July 21, 2010 08:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
Glaucus,

yes, I agree with most of what you said.

But on this I disagree.
" don't really see the black moon Lilith as having sexual overtones"
I do so. The Black Moon Lilith is a lunar symbol, relating directly to feminity, and sexuality is a part of feminity, too.
But of course Lilith cannot be reduced to that part.

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Ami Ann
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posted July 21, 2010 09:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Ann     Edit/Delete Message

quote:
And Ami, I can relate to repressing the more primal side. As a heavily 8th house influenced person like youself (and myself), the 8th house is all about the primal and instinctual and a planet like Mercury has a hard time expressing its mercurian qualities in such an intense house. For the most part I am a very private person and it has taken me years to finally open up to others and truly manifest more leoine energy.

Dear Vertiver
Did you read the 8th house thread. I just read that planets in the 8th have delayed development (if ever) to individuate i.e have a separate identity.
That describes me,unfortunately
You have to go through life for a period of time until something happens that your planets can express who they REALLY are.
Which planets do you have in the 8th?
I have Gem Sun, Gem Mercury and Cancer moon.


x o Ami

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I am two with nature.

Eighth House Stellium

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cpn_edgar_winner
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posted July 21, 2010 09:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cpn_edgar_winner     Edit/Delete Message
i agree with dd, definately power and sex if i had to describe in two words..

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Glaucus
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posted July 21, 2010 12:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
"I do so. The Black Moon Lilith is a lunar symbol, relating directly to feminity, and sexuality is a part of feminity, too.
But of course Lilith cannot be reduced to that part."

The Lunar Nodes which many people often refer to as "Nodes" (all objects have nodes) are based on lunar symbolism too.
Does that mean that the lunar nodes are sexual too?
In Vedic Astrology, the lunar nodes are consider halves of a male demon.

Does that mean that the Moon is sexual. If that is the case, then does that mean that Cancer is very sexual because it's ruled by the Moon.
In Vedic Astrology, the Moon is known as Chandra which is male.


now on the hand,
The Sun relates directly to masculinity. Does that mean that the Sun is sexual? If so, does that mean that Leo is highly sexual because of it is ruled by the Sun?

Also what about the lunar perigree, the exact opposite point of black moon lilith.
Does it make sense for it to be named "Priapus" which is associated with male sexuality? It's based on lunar symbolism,and so it would seem that the lunar perigree is strong female energy too.

at lunar perigree - the Moon appears larger,brighter,closer to us

at lunar perigree - the Moon appears smaller,dimmer,and more distant to us


Venus, the Roman version of Aphrodite, would also be a sexual goddess. In the myths, she was highly sexual and promiscuous. Aphrodite was said to sprang from the detached genitals of Ouranos/Uranus. If Venus is highly sexual, does that mean that Taurus and Libra are highly sexual because they are ruled by Venus.


------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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Glaucus
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posted July 21, 2010 12:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
It's hard for me to see if true black Moon Lilith in my chart works in a sexual way because it's in Scorpio. It is also conjunct the transneptunian dwarf planet candidate, Ixion in 5'25 Scorpio with 17 minutes of arc. With it being a plutino,it's similar to Pluto. It was also named after the Lapith King who was father of the lusty centaurs and was punished because of his lustiness/sexual advances towards Hera.

Therefore my true black moon lilith could could be effected sexually by its placement in Scorpio and close conjunction to Ixion.

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind. http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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DD
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posted July 21, 2010 01:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
Glaucus,

actually I have to answer to all your questions YES.

The lunar nodes carry (through their calculation) both in them, solar and lunar energy; thus they are representing a coming together of these two energies, Yin and Yang.
There are certainly different ways to view or define sexuality or its purposes.
The way I am hinting at here, is the merging of Yin and Yang through sexuality. Uniting masculinity and feminity.

All masculine and feminine archetypes have something to do with sexuality in this sense, as I tried to describe above.
So yes, Sun and Moon, Venus and Mars, and the nodes, and the apogee and perigee of the Moon are in some way sexual.

Regarding the signs I am not completely sure, but it of course would make sense, too.

Regarding the houses DEFINITELY. 4th and 5th house. 5th house is clear to most people, the outward sexual expression (YAng), but the 4th house is deeply sexual, in that it is the most receptive house; in a way you could say it represents the womb, the place where life begins (maybe that is the reason that the elder connected the 4th house with death, too, cause life and death are actually a cycle / circle).

Of course 4th house people and Cancer and Moon-people are not running around shagging everything that can`t run away quickly enough; THAT is not the kind of sexuality I associate with lunar energy.
It is the receptive kind of sexuality, or actually of life itself.
Sexuality is just one very strong expression of that life energy and creativity.

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