posted July 19, 2012 11:52 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lonake:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by curiouswoman:
[b]I make friends with women but they always end up against me somehow.

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posted July 20, 2012 06:33 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
i am the original feminist

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I'm not sure what you meant by that, but based on views that you've expressed here, I would not personally consider you a feminist.

Being a male feminist doesn't mean simply being non-physically abusive to women. There's more to it than that. Attitudes and beliefs are a huge part of it. A feminist man would be happy to be friends with females without any ulterior motives--he would value women for who they are as people and not see them as potential sex objects or as means to an end. He may have feelings for a girl, but if she was not interested, he would respect her feelings, maybe feel a bit disappointed, but would still value her as a person.

You do have a lot of negativity and frustration towards women. You keep saying that you want to date women, but you also make a lot of comments about how men and women can't be friends, about how women don't date "nice" guys, about other things that are bad about women/what women do wrong, and most recently, you commented that guys only spend time with ladies if they're romantically or sexually interested in them, and it seemed like this is OK with you. Those attitudes are not feminist.

I do think that you see women as some sort of 'prizes' to be won and not as real people with real feelings, ideas, thoughts, beliefs, etc. That is not feminist. You seem to not want to have women as friends, given your frequent comments about "friend zoning" (which is also not feminist). I think that you're very goal-minded when it comes to women: it seems like if a girl is not going to date you or sleep with you, she is of no use to you, and you see no reason to really want to be friends with her or get to know her because she is not part of the goal. A lot of guys, especially "nice" guys, fall into that trap. That sort of utilitarian mindset with women doesn't serve you at all, actually, because you're missing the value of women.

I think that you would profit greatly from being just friends with women. Even though it may seem counter-intuitive or counter-productive, I think that being just friends with women might actually help you with dating, as it would give you experience in maintaining good relationships with women.

And, as I've said before, I think, "nice" guys usually are not nice at all. "Nice" guys feel like women owe them romantic or sexual attention and get frustrated and even angry when they don't get it from the women from whom they want it. They don't take other things into consideration besides their own desires. The explanation given is that the women are "bad", and no further explanations or information are explored: the story is left incomplete, one-sided, and imbalanced, which is not helpful to the guy because it does not give him any information or insight. "Nice" guys don't look at themselves and try to improve: they expect women to change. "Nice" guys feel like the problem is with women in general. None of those mindsets are feminist, and those are just a few reasons why women do not like "nice" guys.

posted July 20, 2012 03:27 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
I'm not sure what you meant by that, but based on views that you've expressed here, I would not personally consider you a feminist.

Being a male feminist doesn't mean simply being non-physically abusive to women. There's more to it than that. Attitudes and beliefs are a huge part of it. A feminist man would be happy to be friends with females without any ulterior motives--he would value women for who they are as people and not see them as potential sex objects or as means to an end. He may have feelings for a girl, but if she was not interested, he would respect her feelings, maybe feel a bit disappointed, but would still value her as a person.

You do have a lot of negativity and frustration towards women. You keep saying that you want to date women, but you also make a lot of comments about how men and women can't be friends, about how women don't date "nice" guys, about other things that are bad about women/what women do wrong, and most recently, you commented that guys only spend time with ladies if they're romantically or sexually interested in them, and it seemed like this is OK with you. Those attitudes are not feminist.

I do think that you see women as some sort of 'prizes' to be won and not as real people with real feelings, ideas, thoughts, beliefs, etc. That is not feminist. You seem to not want to have women as friends, given your frequent comments about "friend zoning" (which is also not feminist). I think that you're very goal-minded when it comes to women: it seems like if a girl is not going to date you or sleep with you, she is of no use to you, and you see no reason to really want to be friends with her or get to know her because she is not part of the goal. A lot of guys, especially "nice" guys, fall into that trap. That sort of utilitarian mindset with women doesn't serve you at all, actually, because you're missing the value of women.

I think that you would profit greatly from being just friends with women. Even though it may seem counter-intuitive or counter-productive, I think that being just friends with women might actually help you with dating, as it would give you experience in maintaining good relationships with women.

And, as I've said before, I think, "nice" guys usually are not nice at all. "Nice" guys feel like women owe them romantic or sexual attention and get frustrated and even angry when they don't get it from the women from whom they want it. They don't take other things into consideration besides their own desires. The explanation given is that the women are "bad", and no further explanations or information are explored: the story is left incomplete, one-sided, and imbalanced, which is not helpful to the guy because it does not give him any information or insight. "Nice" guys don't look at themselves and try to improve: they expect women to change. "Nice" guys feel like the problem is with women in general. None of those mindsets are feminist, and those are just a few reasons why women do not like "nice" guys.

I'm at the point where I no longer feel the inclination to post more about this topic, as I feel like I've pretty much articulated everything that I feel is helpful and am just repeating myself, but I'm giving it one last shot in case any other guys out there are struggling with the same issues.

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posted July 20, 2012 04:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by curiouswoman:
No Lonake, you misunderstood! I had genuine friendships but they all ended when the women ended up in serious relationships where they thought it would be best to keep me at arms length, even when I was in a relationship myself. You have to meet me to know me to understand me. Don't attack.
I am the type of person to go to the end of the world for someone I love which I've done numerous occasions however, it seems THE NICER I am the MORE they need to push me away. It's a damn ifi do damn if I don't. It's weird. The fact that this became a pattern that I started NOT to trust women in general.

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"I make friends with women but they always end up against me somehow."
Defensiveness isn't a virtue.

posted July 20, 2012 04:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:

ok i am going to explain this the best way i know how. My personal philosophy is that relationships should always be balanced, with both people getting what they want and desire from the relationship or else its not fair to one of the parties. so if i want a romanctic relationship and she doesnt, its not fair to me to forget my wants and needs and just be friends just as it wouldnt be fair to her to pretend to have feelings and date me, so as you can see its in neither of our best interests to continue things when we are on two completely different pages. i have tried to just be friends when i wanted more and it led me to heartache, i am not going to do that to myself again, from now on i'm not gonna be a doormat, if that makes me a bad person than i guess im a bad person.i honestly think if a woman doesnt owe me a relationship(as you continue to say), then i dont owe her my friendship, if a woman has the right to say no to relationship without being labeled selfish than i think a man has the right to move on to women who might be interested without being demonized.

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posted July 20, 2012 04:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lonake:
"I make friends with women but they always end up against me somehow."
Defensiveness isn't a virtue.

And no you don't have to change at all. And yes you are a poor victim of all these jealous women.
Give me a break.

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Why do her feelings agitate you Lonake?

posted July 20, 2012 05:37 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hannaramaa:
Uhm...I usually oppose Regardes (respectfully) but in this instance your view is a bit narrow. Sure, she doesn't want to date you but you didn't develop feelings for her because she DID, right? Surely you like a woman for more than her looks. Like her sense of humor, her insight. These are also things people like in their friends too. Her not reciprocating your feelings means you move on to the next woman to date but you can still maintain a friendship with the previous woman. It IS possible, but only if your mature enough. Being friends with her doesn't make you a doormat, you just have to learn how to create appropriate boundaries that aren't so extreme. A woman isn't selfish for not sincerely returning your feelings, because more than likely it's done out of a genuine place. Your motive for not being her friend is done out of selfishness. Like a child who doesn't get his way. Big difference. You wouldn't be "demonized" if you maybe explained it differently such as "It's too hard for me to be friends with a woman I like because I'm only focused on her." THAT would be received much differently and in a much better light than "Well she didn't do this for me so I'm out." You're right in that relationships are about give and take, and balance but not to the point of keeping score. It's not a business. You do nice things for someone out of appreciation and wanting to make their life easier for five seconds, not ALWAYS because you feel obligated to.

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posted July 20, 2012 05:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
lol i know they arent selfish for their feelings but neither am i for mine lol.

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posted July 20, 2012 05:41 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lonake:
Why would you assume that hannaramaa?

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posted July 20, 2012 05:54 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hannaramaa:
Yes it is...why can't you see that? Your using their friendship as a bargaining tool rather than because you enjoy their company as a person. I know the Aqua guy at work will never like me back but I'm still his friend.

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posted July 20, 2012 05:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
lol no im not using it as a bargaining tool.

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facepalm.

posted July 21, 2012 04:44 AM            

So if I understand this correctly:
* You want relationship with a girl
* Girl only wants friendship
* You decline friendship altogether and walk out

Is that correct?
If that's the case, with no room for compromise, I can imagine that some girls can dislike you ... Girls in general just don't like being pushed. Do you even give them a chance to get to know you better?

I can imagine you adopted this vision because you were being taken advantage of in the past, by this "friendzoning". But I agree that defining clear boundaries so you won't become a doormat again, is a much saner way to go.

With these boundaries, girls that respect you will hang around. I think it's good that you'd try to establish new friendships with women. You might understand them better, so they don't look like this alien race to you lol. And who knows, maybe with your new understanding, it could help you to meet someone new ...

posted July 21, 2012 10:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hannaramaa:
Really?

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posted July 21, 2012 11:31 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by pandacake:
@Aquaguy:

So if I understand this correctly:
* You want relationship with a girl
* Girl only wants friendship
* You decline friendship altogether and walk out

Is that correct?
If that's the case, with no room for compromise, I can imagine that some girls can dislike you ... Girls in general just don't like being pushed. Do you even give them a chance to get to know you better?

I can imagine you adopted this vision because you were being taken advantage of in the past, by this "friendzoning". But I agree that defining clear boundaries so you won't become a doormat again, is a much saner way to go.

With these boundaries, girls that respect you will hang around. I think it's good that you'd try to establish new friendships with women. You might understand them better, so they don't look like this alien race to you lol. And who knows, maybe with your new understanding, it could help you to meet someone new ...

Just for mentioning, three Aquas I know, their relationships actually started as genuine friendships. With friendship and mutual understanding as solid foundation, their relationship is still going strong. I'm not saying you should form friendship with the practical thought of having a relationship with them one day, at all! Just wanted to say that you should be more laissez faire and, maybe, good suprises might come your way.

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posted July 24, 2012 06:04 PM            

^ That usually goes away though, with time, when they realize you're not the Devil they're making you out to be.

And then you have the people who will not like you no matter what. And there's nothing wrong with that either, just focus on the ones who do.

posted July 24, 2012 06:28 PM            

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Originally posted by pandacake:
^ Hi aquaguy,
Thanks for explaining, I understand what you mean now. I might not fully agree but I don't think you're terrible lol. Since you're a fixed sign I understand it's difficult for you to change how you feel.
It's a bit strange because most Aquas I know value platonic friendship so much. Either way I really do hope you will find what you are looking for, stay optimistic!

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