posted October 11, 2013 04:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Gabby:
Originally witches were the ones blessing our earth, calling for love, healing...not the dark witches that are promoted today.

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really?
did these people refer to themselves as witches? what is witchcraft? and which dark witches are you talking about?

first, not all people who practice magic are witches and doing magic does not = witchcraft.
there is a difference between magic and witchcraft.
ive yet to meet a native american who would even accept the term witchcraft and consider themselves as witches. if anything, they have a name for their own traditions, and this should be respected.
witchcraft is a complicated term since witchcraft was used as a (pejorative) term to define a religion/spirituality of non-christian groups, when these groups had their own terms for their own religions.

there are many religions that involve magic but that does not mean it is witchcraft, if anything, imposing the term witchcraft to them is....sort of...imperialist, imo. is vodou witchcraft, for example? no, it is not. even though there is magic.
in ancient pagan times, the use of sorcery, witchcraft and magic, esp. to hurt others was usually seen as negative.
also, the witch was usually seen as a personage that should not be trusted...e.g. medea of the greeks, or the goddess marzana of eastern europe, a witch who killed her husband. both witches, both seen in a not the most positive way in pagan times...and, i could tell you even more.

thus, it is false to think that witchcraft being judged as something deviant came from christianity, that is not true. even though, some neopagans and wiccans have this erroneous idealistic view of witchcraft being something positive in the past before christianity, that was later demonized by the christians.
witchcraft has always been involved with both dark and light.

witches cursing and engaging in the dark arts is old news....witches being nothing but good and light is very new and not accurate, and pertains to the religion of wicca.
in reality, in western society, the notion of witchcraft as being a path about doing nothing but good deeds is recent, and it is thanks to the modern religion of Wicca, created by gerald gardner in the 1950s in england. somewhere after the 1970s, wicca became even more watered-down, wiccans, eager to gain mainstream approval, revamped wicca into an 'only good deeds' religion and,
being that many confuse witchcraft with wicca, people assume that witchcraft follows the same 'only good deeds' notion, but that is not the case.
that is one of the reasons one often reads of "witchcraft being a path about blessings, healing, etc"....that is wicca, not witchcraft.

there were british non-wiccan witchcraft traditions around gardner's time, that completely disagreed with gardner and his religion of wicca, and that view witchcraft as a practice, and, don't look down on cursing. as some say, a witch who cannot curse, cannot heal. these groups would not even use the term witchcraft for their traditions but other terms, now that witchcraft has been revamped as a positive term, more people use it...but again, witchcraft has always been more negative than positive as a term.

reiterating that wicca is not the same as witchcraft. wicca is a religion with a moral tenet of doing no harm, and witchcraft is a practice, and not a religion.
thus, there are christian witches, for example.
and, there are witches who will heal, and do positive affirming magic, but will also curse, their witchcraft is as valid as that of wiccans who do not curse. this does not mean they are dark witches or that their practice is inferior or that they only do curse work, again.....
witchcraft is a practice, and, it is up to the witch to define her practice.

posted October 11, 2013 05:11 PM            

and also taurus/venus/2nd house....this one makes sense, witchcraft is very hands-on and engages in folk magic, working with herbs, and so on...and, witches are usually finicky with their altars at home...that space at home or outside of the house is special.

for the scorpio/pluto/8th house and taurus/2nd house, there is also the matter of 'control' and being able 'to control'
for the other water signs along with scorpio/pluto/8 - water is usually interested in occultism, religion, metaphysics...what is ethereal....trance. yes to the trance work, water folks seem to really like anything relating to altered states of consciousness....to go beyond.

aquarius/11thouse - main deal: no authority. these folks either tend to work in groups or be ridiculously independent, yes, they are very much interested in metaphysics and metaphysics in a way that reaches all of humanity a la mysticism....
but, witchcraft is a path that is not geared towards authority, it is very individualized..

as to asteroids: hekate and medea are the big ones ive seen in the charts
other asteroids: circe, merlin and lucifer

posted October 11, 2013 06:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hikoro:
really?
did these people refer to themselves as witches? what is witchcraft? and which dark witches are you talking about?

first, not all people who practice magic are witches and doing magic does not = witchcraft.
there is a difference between magic and witchcraft.
ive yet to meet a native american who would even accept the term witchcraft and consider themselves as witches. if anything, they have a name for their own traditions, and this should be respected.
witchcraft is a complicated term since witchcraft was used as a (pejorative) term to define a religion/spirituality of non-christian groups, when these groups had their own terms for their own religions.

there are many religions that involve magic but that does not mean it is witchcraft, if anything, imposing the term witchcraft to them is....sort of...imperialist, imo. is vodou witchcraft, for example? no, it is not. even though there is magic.
in ancient pagan times, the use of sorcery, witchcraft and magic, esp. to hurt others was usually seen as negative.
also, the witch was usually seen as a personage that should not be trusted...e.g. medea of the greeks, or the goddess marzana of eastern europe, a witch who killed her husband. both witches, both seen in a not the most positive way in pagan times...and, i could tell you even more.

thus, it is false to think that witchcraft being judged as something deviant came from christianity, that is not true. even though, some neopagans and wiccans have this erroneous idealistic view of witchcraft being something positive in the past before christianity, that was later demonized by the christians.
witchcraft has always been involved with both dark and light.

witches cursing and engaging in the dark arts is old news....witches being nothing but good and light is very new and not accurate, and pertains to the religion of wicca.
in reality, in western society, the notion of witchcraft as being a path about doing nothing but good deeds is recent, and it is thanks to the modern religion of Wicca, created by gerald gardner in the 1950s in england. somewhere after the 1970s, wicca became even more watered-down, wiccans, eager to gain mainstream approval, revamped wicca into an 'only good deeds' religion and,
being that many confuse witchcraft with wicca, people assume that witchcraft follows the same 'only good deeds' notion, but that is not the case.
that is one of the reasons one often reads of "witchcraft being a path about blessings, healing, etc"....that is wicca, not witchcraft.

there were british non-wiccan witchcraft traditions around gardner's time, that completely disagreed with gardner and his religion of wicca, and that view witchcraft as a practice, and, don't look down on cursing. as some say, a witch who cannot curse, cannot heal. these groups would not even use the term witchcraft for their traditions but other terms, now that witchcraft has been revamped as a positive term, more people use it...but again, witchcraft has always been more negative than positive as a term.

reiterating that wicca is not the same as witchcraft. wicca is a religion with a moral tenet of doing no harm, and witchcraft is a practice, and not a religion.
thus, there are christian witches, for example.
and, there are witches who will heal, and do positive affirming magic, but will also curse, their witchcraft is as valid as that of wiccans who do not curse. this does not mean they are dark witches or that their practice is inferior or that they only do curse work, again.....
witchcraft is a practice, and, it is up to the witch to define her practice.

last point:
sorcery might or might not be the same as witchcraft...

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Yes, really!
The negative reputation came from the Christian religion, they began spreading fear of anyone with these abilities saying they were not of God and their abilities came from dark powers....

"Witchcraft"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Witchcraft (also called witchery or spellcraft) is the use of magical faculties, most commonly for religious, divinatory or medicinal purposes.[1] This may take many forms depending on cultural context.

The belief in and the practice of magic has been present since the earliest human cultures and continues to have an important religious and medicinal role in many cultures today.

"Magic is central not only in 'primitive' societies but in 'high cultural' societies as well..."

The concept of witchcraft as harmful is often treated as a cultural ideology providing a scapegoat for human misfortune.

This was particularly the case in Early Modern Europe where witchcraft came to be seen as part of a vast diabolical conspiracy of individuals in league with the Devil undermining Christianity, eventually leading to large-scale witch-hunts, especially in Protestant Europe. Witch hunts continue to this day with tragic consequences.

Since the mid-20th century Witchcraft has become the designation of a branch of contemporary Paganism, it is most notably practiced in the Wiccan traditions, some of whom claim to practice a revival of pre-Abrahamic spirituality.

http://atheism.about.com/od/christianityviolence/a/witches.htm

"Witches have long been feared and hated in Christian circles. Even today, pagans and Wiccans remain a target of Christian persecution — especially in America. It seems that they long ago took on an identity which reached far beyond their own existence and became a symbol for Christians — but a symbol of what? Maybe an examination of the events will give us some clues.

As the Inquisition proceeded merrily along through the 1400s, its focus shifted from Jews and heretics and moved towards so-called witches. Although Pope Gregory IX had authorized the killing of witches back in the 1200s, the fad just didn’t catch on for while. In 1484, Pope Innocent VIII issued a bull declaring that witches did indeed exist, and thus it became a heresy to believe otherwise. This was quite a reversal, because in 906 the Canon Episocopi, a church law, declared that belief in the existence and operation of witchcraft was heresy.

As a result of this, church authorities tortured and killed thousands of women, and not a few men, in an effort to get them to confess that they flew through the sky, had sexual relations with demons, turned into animals, and engaged in various sorts of black magic.

The creation of the concept of devil-worship, followed by its persecution, allowed the church to more easily subordinate people to authoritarian control and openly denigrate women. Most of what was passed off as witchcraft were simply fictional creations of the church, but some of it was genuine or almost-genuine practices of pagans and wiccans.

In fact, the word “witch” from the Old English word “wicca,” which was applied to male and female members of an ancient pagan tradition which reveres masculine, feminine and earthly aspects of God. Wiccan tradition involved both heaven and earth, both the next world and this world. It also involved a tradition which was not quite as hierarchical and authoritarian, and this represented a direct challenge to the Christian church.

posted October 11, 2013 06:58 PM            

quote:

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After the house lands, Dorothy finds herself in the colorful Land of Oz, meeting Glinda the Good Witch and the Munchkins, who were terrorized by the Wicked Witch of the East until Dorothy's house crushed her. Her sister, the Wicked Witch of the West, appears looking for her sister's Ruby Slippers, only for Glinda to enchant them onto Dorothy's feet. After the Witch leaves vowing to get the shoes, Glinda suggests to Dorothy that she go to the Emerald City and ask the Wizard of Oz to get her back home.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wizard_of_Oz_(1939_film)

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I suppose just like any other group of people there are good witches and wicked witches...and depending on what time of the month it is sometimes it's hard to tell which witch is which.

By the way, did you know the Official Halloween Capital of the World is in Minnesota, The Land of 10,000 Seas? Yep. It's in Anoka to be exact.

I don't go there. The po-po are really bad. Last time I went to Anoka County (back in the VHS days) I was arrested for late movie rentals. I had rented a couple movies from The Video Universe and one of them, The Graduate with Dustin Hoffman, got stuck in my brand new VCR. Anyways, to make a long story short...you know you're really, really screwed when all the court papers have the word VIDEO omitted and the court papers end up reading:

THE UNIVERSE
vs
STEPHANIE (me)

Back to The Halloween Capital...

quote:

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The History of Anoka Halloween

Anoka, Minnesota is believed to be the first city in the United States to put on a Halloween celebration to divert its youngsters from Halloween pranks. When Anokans awoke to find their cows roaming Main Street, their windows soaped and their outhouses tipped over, they decided something had to be done.

Getting Organized In 1920, George Green and other Anoka civic leaders suggested the idea of a giant celebration. The idea was adopted by the Anoka Commercial Club and the Anoka Kiwanis Club; both giving their full support...In September of that year, a Halloween committee was organized. Working hand in hand were businessmen, teachers from the Anoka public and parochial schools, parents, and students...For weeks before the big event, more than a thousand Anoka school children made plans and costumes for the big event.

By the 1930s, the festivities had expanded as had the attendance at the parades. There were over 2,000 costumed children marching down Main Street. It was estimated that 20,000 spectators lined the streets to watch this night-time spectacle. In 1937, 12-year-old, Harold Blair, donning a sweater embellished with a Halloween Capital insignia, carried with him to Washington, D.C. a proclamation naming Anoka the Halloween Capital of the World.

See more at: http://anokahalloween.com/pages/History/

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posted October 11, 2013 09:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Gabby:
Yes, really!
The negative reputation came from the Christian religion, they began spreading fear of anyone with these abilities saying they were not of God and their abilities came from dark powers....

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no....gabby...
if you will cite wikipedia, you might want to research more thoroughly....
i will use the same source you used.
here it is, this is from wikipedia itself, and this is verified by other historians,
if you need any links, let me know. i studied the history of witchcraft and im a non-wiccan witch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_witchcraft

quote:

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In Ancient Greece, for example, Theoris, a woman of Lemnos, who is denounced by Demosthenes, was publicly tried at Athens and burned for her necromancy. Lemnos was sacred to Hephaestus, who is said to have fallen here when hurled by Zeus from Olympus. The workshops of the Smith-God in ancient legend were supposed to be on the island, although recent geologists deny that this area was ever volcanic, and the fires which are spoken of as issuing from it must be considered gaseous. Later the officinae of Hephaestus were placed in Sicily and the Lipari Islands, particularly Hiera.

In Ancient Rome black magic was punished as a capital offence by the Law of the Twelve Tables, which are to be assigned to the 5th century BC, and, as Livy records, from time to time Draconian statutes were directed against those who attempted to blight crops and vineyards or to spread disease amongst flocks and cattle. The terms of the frequent references in Horace to Canidia illustrate the odium in which sorceresses were held.

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hmm....doesnt this sound like the same accusations post-christianity? obviously, the root of the problem was not christianity.

quote:

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Under the Empire, in the third century, the punishment of burning alive was enacted by the State against witches who compassed another person's death through their enchantments. Nevertheless, all the while normal legislation utterly condemned witchcraft and its works, whilst the laws were not merely carried out to their very letter, but reinforced by such emperors as Claudius, Vitelius, and Vespasian.

In the imperial period, it is evident from many Latin authors and from the historians that Rome swarmed with occultists and diviners, many of whom in spite of the Lex Cornelia almost openly traded in poisons, and not infrequently in assassination to boot. Paradoxical as it may appear, such emperors as Augustus, Tiberius, and Septimius Severus, whilst banishing from their realms all seers and necromancers, and putting them to death, in private entertained astrologers and wizards among their retinue, consulting their art upon each important occasion, and often even in the everyday and ordinary affairs of life. These prosecutions are significant, as they establish that and the prohibition under severest penalties, the sentence of death itself of witchcraft was demonstrably not a product of Christianity, but had long and necessarily been employed in the heathen world and among pagan peoples and among polytheistic societies.

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as you can see...
the hatred towards anything related to witchcraft did not start with christianity...
unfortunately, it is often seen this way because well, many modern witches come from christian households, and often times than not, resent chrsitianity....so the anti-christian version seems to get more hype. it becomes a 'let's fault christianity with everything'
the same thing happens with atheists....mind you, christianity is not my path, but...facts are facts.
the pagan past before christianity was not all roses...at all.
the way that women were treated in athens before christianity? horrible!

some other sources as to witchcraft seen as a distrustful path even before christianity

medea
marzanna, slavic goddess, who happened to be a witch, killed her husband, an effigy representing her was burned...every year.
magika hiera/greek magical papyri...
the egyptian book of the dead...

again, magic does not = witchcraft.
and witchcraft is a term that was used by outsiders to impose on people who followed their own traditions....
many religions use magic, even some christian sects, does that mean that christians are witches?
it is not until recent times that the term witchcraft has been claimed as a personal path. before, that was not the case.
do you consider vodou as witchcraft?

as to the article written by atheists, which honestly, i expected to be more accurate, but unfortunately, it seems to make the same historical mistake, and confound the terms.

quote:

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"Witches have long been feared and hated in Christian circles. Even today, pagans and Wiccans remain a target of Christian persecution — especially in America. It seems that they long ago took on an identity which reached far beyond their own existence and became a symbol for Christians — but a symbol of what? Maybe an examination of the events will give us some clues.

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witchcraft and wicca are not one in the same.
wicca is a form of modern witchcraft, it is a new religion, and there are many different traditions of witchcraft.
there is wicca, there is also feri witchcraft, there is also brujeria.
wiccans dont curse, non-wiccan witches will curse if need be.

besides, this article is talking about wicca, not witchcraft.

quote:

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The creation of the concept of devil-worship, followed by its persecution, allowed the church to more easily subordinate people to authoritarian control and openly denigrate women. Most of what was passed off as witchcraft were simply fictional creations of the church, but some of it was genuine or almost-genuine practices of pagans and wiccans.

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the inquisition was not an activity against women...i know this is hyped, and got a lot of popularity thanks to extreme waves of feminism...but, the inquisition also affected men, you either had people who were very poor or people who gained status who were victims...
at times, it was a way to get back at someone who was above you economically or as a way to destroy marginalized people, as it often happens even today.

quote:

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In fact, the word “witch” from the Old English word “wicca,” which was applied to male and female members of an ancient pagan tradition which reveres masculine, feminine and earthly aspects of God. Wiccan tradition involved both heaven and earth, both the next world and this world. It also involved a tradition which was not quite as hierarchical and authoritarian, and this represented a direct challenge to the Christian church.

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wow...they talk of wicca as if it were an old religion *_*
it is true that witch derives from wicca, but wicca is a term referring to a male witch, not a woman.
only because the term wicca existed, doesnt mean that wicca existed back then, anyways, most wiccans admit that wicca is a modern religion.
and! Gerald Gardner, the man who created Wicca...never called his religion wicca, he called the group, the Wica, wicca was later adopted as the term for the Wica.
again, wicca and witchcraft are not one in the same...
witches dont necessarily honor the earth, or revere feminine and masculine energies, that is wicca.

im using the same sources you used.
a link from about.com....

differences between wicca, witchcraft and paganism
http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/wiccaandpaganismbasics/a/WWPDiffs.htm

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Not All Pagans are Wiccans

There are many Witches who are not Wiccans. Some are Pagans, but some consider themselves something else entirely.

Just to make sure everyone’s on the same page, let’s clear up one thing right off the bat: not all Pagans are Wiccans. The term “Pagan” (derived from the Latin paganus, which translates roughly to “hick from the sticks”) was originally used to describe people who lived in rural areas. As time progressed and Christianity spread, those same country folk were often the last holdouts clinging to their old religions. Thus, “Pagan” came to mean people who didn’t worship the god of Abraham.

In the 1950s, Gerald Gardner brought Wicca to the public, and many contemporary Pagans embraced the practice. Although Wicca itself was founded by Gardner, he based it upon old traditions. However, a lot of Witches and Pagans were perfectly happy to continue practicing their own spiritual path without converting to Wicca.

Therefore, “Pagan” is an umbrella term that includes many different spiritual belief systems – Wicca is just one of many.
Think of it this way:

Christian > Lutheran or Methodist or Jehovah’s Witness

Pagan > Wiccan or Asatru or Dianic or Eclectic Witchcraft

As if that wasn’t confusing enough, not all people who practice witchcraft are Wiccans, or even Pagans. There are a few witches who embrace the Christian god as well as a Wiccan goddess – the Christian Witch movement is alive and well! There are also people out there who practice Jewish mysticism, or "Jewitchery", and atheist witches who practice magic but do not follow a deity.

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articles on differences between wicca and witchcraft (often referred as traditional witchcraft, by some)....

the difference between wicca and witchcraft http://www.janih.com/lady/magick/difference.html

and...as to ethics, curses...and black magic
http://www.spelwerx.com/wvtw.html

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Ethics

The Wiccan religion has a “Rede” or a “golden rule” which forms the basis of Wiccan ethics…it states “As long as you harm none, do as you will”. This is a good suggestion, and basically a re-wording of the Judeo-Christian "golden rule". However, the Traditional Craft has no such rule. Ethics in the Old Craft are completely ambiguous and situational.

Wiccans treat this “Rede” as though it is an immutable cosmic law, when in reality, the word “Rede” is Anglo-Saxon for “advice”, not “law”. But to the Wiccan religion, it is an unmovable piece of dogma.

This whole issue turns out to be another New-Age Wiccan (and modern human) denial of the darkness inherent in nature, which I will discuss later. Harming and Hurting, these things exist in nature…and we humans are part of nature. Thus, they are part of us. You harm plants and animals to eat them. You harm bacteria in the water you drink. Life feeds on life. The Traditional Craft is very family and Faith oriented, and if someone threatens the family, or the faith, then stopping that threat is first and foremost. If that means harming someone, that’s what Traditional Witches will do, and there is no ethical injunction against it.

The Craft, and the power it invokes, is not “good” or “bad”…it is both. There is a time and a place for both. This is hard for New-agers to understand, but it is simply the way of things. To deny either side of yourself, or of nature, is to move away from the central mystery: that of wholeness.

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quote:

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Ethics
There are a lot of different components that can be looked at in a compare and contrast way between Traditional Witchcraft and Wicca. But before looking at those, let's first take a brief glance at what ethics are to the Traditional Witch. Traditional Witches have no code or laws of ethics to live by. The most important factor in using magick is the idea that you will be responsible for your actions. Because in Traditional Witchcraft there is no Wiccan Rede or other moral code, the use of "black magick", hexes, curses, and the like, are not ruled out on principle. In fact, to the Traditional Witch, it is looked at as honorable to do whatever is necessary to protect oneself and ones family in a time when they are facing potential danger on any level. With responsibility being the main focus, the idea in Traditional Witchcraft that there is no good or evil, only your intent, this gives even more of a weight on the shoulders of a Witch considering adverse magick.

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this is another good one...
what is the difference between wicca and traditional witchcraft? http://traditionalwitchcraftandoccultism.wordpress.com/2 012/02/15/what-is-the-difference-between-wicca-and-witchcraft/

quote:

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Traditional witchcraft is a practice of magic that encompasses many different types of activities including astrology, divination, spell casting, spirit communication and demonology. It includes the practices of many nations, cultures and religions as well as many books and writings from ancient times.

Traditional witches may admire King Solomon or St. Cyprian for their work with demonic forces. They may be adherents to the tradition of The Golden Dawn, which gave birth to the entire New Age movement and grew out of the work of the Rosicrucians. Sometimes they choose even more arcane forms of magical practices.

They may be inclined toward Satanic witchcraft as it was practiced by Anton LaVey of The Church of Satan. Or, they may be Luciferians or Gnostics.

They may be practice Santeria, Hoodoo or any number of traditional magical practices from countries and cultures around the world.

Some witches are capable healers who have knowledge of herbs, minerals and an alternative science that allows them to heal people at a distance.

They are as different as the individual; and they are as good or as bad as the individual. Most traditional witches are independent thinkers who try to do the right thing, but they are not encumbered by any pre-defined moral or ethical code. (There are no Commandment and no Rede.)

Interestingly, in the English language, there is only one word for witch. And, witches may heal or harm other people. This differs in other languages, for example, in Spanish where there are healers called “curanderos” and harming witches called “brujos.”

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so....basically....when you said this:

quote:

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Originally witches were the ones blessing our earth, calling for love, healing...not the dark witches that are promoted today.

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posted October 11, 2013 11:48 PM            

Perhaps if you are trying to cast a love spell...you might wait until transiting Venus conjuncts/trines your flames ruling planet. If you wanted to curse an ex flame you might perform ritual when Pluto is minutes away from squaring a personal planet in his/her natal chart.

posted October 11, 2013 11:49 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by StarlightSmileSupreme:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kerosene:
[b] well yeah.. and most importantly the morning and evening star Venus was was often repressed as an ominous figure in both eastern and central american cultures.

I think western astrology does not realize how powerful Venus is.. and leaves venus to govern beauty and love lol based on the goddess.
I noticed Venus transits are more impactful even more so than mars.
I do think venus is a benefic but.. more so in a superficial way...

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posted October 11, 2013 11:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Regulus18:
To tie everything together, I believe Witches use all planets depending on what it is they are trying to do.

Perhaps if you are trying to cast a love spell...you might wait until transiting Venus conjuncts/trines your flames ruling planet.

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yes...and add to that, mercury...since it rules communication.

quote:

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If you wanted to curse an ex flame you might perform ritual when Pluto is minutes away from squaring a personal planet in his/her natal chart.

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believe it or not...
saturn and mars are more common...pluto, not so much.

posted October 12, 2013 12:07 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by StarlightSmileSupreme:

Wouldn't you say Venus is more about love spells and portions to attract one's heart's desire while the moon might be other forms of magic? I wonder if the moon could have some jurisdiction over both forms of magic, white and black?

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venus is not just love and desire..but also, money...
so venus does act on attracting money too
as to the moon, well...there are some who think of doing drawing magic while the moon waxes and removal and cursing while the moon wanes...
but...if the need is now, moon waning, waxing, dark moon, and other planetary configurations are irrelevant...none of it matters...
after all, there are many magic practitioners that dont pay attention to astrology...
and if a witch cant harness the power without depending on planetary alignments, then that is not so good...sometimes, you need to know how to work with what you have

posted October 12, 2013 12:49 AM            

I appreciate the time you took in posting all that to help me understand what you are saying. Very interesting and very kind of you!

posted October 12, 2013 02:54 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Violets:

I need to get my hands on some of the books you guys have been reading!

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You might want to check out Llewellyn Worldwide, which is also in the Land of 10,000 Seas...

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The world's oldest and largest independent publisher of books for body, mind, and spirit, Llewellyn is dedicated to bringing our readers the very best in metaphysical books and resources. Since 1901, we've been at the forefront of holistic and metaphysical publishing and thought. We've been a source of illumination, instruction, and new perspectives on a wealth of topics, including astrology, tarot, wellness, earth-based spirituality, magic, and the paranormal. From e-books to tarot-themed iPhone apps, Llewellyn has embraced the Digital Age to continue our mission.

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Actually, Llewellyn Worldwide corporate HQ is only about ten miles from me. I really enjoy Llewellyn's almanacs, but my favorite (& to me indispensable) annual is Llewellyn's Astrological Calendar. I have it hanging up in my bathroom. It's in the astrology section:

http://www.llewellyn.com/browse_astrology.php

posted October 12, 2013 03:03 AM              

It's nice to have an actual book to read sometimes. I secretly enjoy it when the power goes out, because it forces me to...I dunno. Do something crazy like pick up an actual book, lol.

posted October 12, 2013 04:59 AM            

quote:

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What is Paganism?

Paganism, also called neo-Paganism, is a new religious movement whose adherents are found throughout the world. Paganism is an umbrella term that describes a variety of denominations, known to Pagans as traditions, which for the most part organize themselves and operate without a centralized religious body or a standardized dogma. While variety of belief and practice is a source of pride for Pagans, it can sometimes be a source of confusion for others. In the pages that follow we present what we believe to be the fundamentals of Paganism. We explore such questions as why Paganism is called an earth-centered religion, how many Pagans there might be in the United States, what Pagans are like, how the Pagan sacred year is arranged, what Pagans do in ritual, what magick is, and what Pagans believe about God, worship, human nature, and ethics.

Over the years we have met thousands of Pagans throughout the United States. We have watched the Pagan movement grow from a fairly small, insular movement to one that may now number more than a million in the United States. We have spoken to numerous Pagans individually, participated in discussions and debates about the nature and future of the Pagan movement, and helped organize local and national Pagan events. For more than a decade we have explained and taught Paganism to many people in a variety of likely and unlikely places. We've taught Sunday school at Christian churches, given the main address at Unitarian churches, attended interfaith councils, taught world religions classes, demonstrated Pagan ritual for Mensa, given retreats, spoken at festivals and conventions, and provided newspaper, radio, and TV interviews on the subject. For most of these years we've also offered private class instruction in Paganism at beginning and intermediate levels. It is from this source of accumulated personal experience that we have collected and developed the concepts we present in this book. While elements of the topics covered here can be found in other books on Paganism, the beliefs we identify as fundamental to Paganism and how we interpret them are uniquely our own.

We have on occasion been asked to name the most important belief or concept of Paganism. This is difficult given the many traditions within the movement. However, if we could reduce Paganism down to its essentials, we believe its two most central concepts are interconnectedness and blessedness.

The belief that every part of the universe is profoundly interconnected shapes how Pagans view the nature of the Divine, the sorts of relationships possible with the Divine and the universe, and forms the Pagan approach to prayer and magick. Most Pagans believe that all parts of the universe, whether ¿animate¿ or ¿inanimate,¿ are connected at very deep levels that extend beyond the boundaries of space-time as we know them. Because of this interconnection, many Pagans believe they are able to interact with the universe and the Divine as co-creators. This concept is further explored in chapters 5 and 6.

The belief that every part of the universe is blessed in its nature, and that there is nothing wrong with the universe or with you, means that the purpose of Pagan spiritual practice differs from that of religions focused on issues of purification and salvation. Paganism takes the position that human beings are unflawed in their natures, are not spiritually doomed or damned, are born with all the tools and skills necessary to live ethically and spiritually, and are naturally oriented toward their own greatest growth and development. No part of Pagan belief, practice, ritual, or sacrament is designed to 'save' Pagans from a flawed or corrupt nature, or to avert supernatural punishment arising from such supposed flaws. Elements of this concept are developed throughout the book, particularly in chapter 7.

By contrast, most world religions today teach the opposite of one or both of Paganism's central themes. They teach that the elements of the universe are separate from each other and that there is something fundamentally wrong with all of us. They may teach separateness by asserting that the universe contains distinct bits of matter not connected at deeper levels, that each of us is irretrievably separated from others and the Divine by nature, or that the universe is split between what is spiritual (and therefore good) and what is physical (and therefore bad).

Most world religions also teach that human nature is flawed, and that there is something fundamentally wrong with all human beings that must be corrected in order to reach that religion's idea of salvation or enlightenment. This wrongness may be called original sin or ego or desire or free will or any other of a number of names, but the existence and overcoming of this inherent wrongness is the basis of the spiritual practices, sacraments, and ethics practiced by their members. In such religions, the wrongness frequently doesn't end with human beings but extends into the entire physical world so that we are seen to be surrounded by wrongness, to be spiritually unsafe, and are encouraged to feel that life is a very dangerous undertaking. The concepts of separateness and wrongness are so ingrained in each one us and in our culture that most of us are often not even aware they color our perceptions, life experience, and spiritual growth.

Paganism soundly rejects both of these concepts, and unequivocally affirms the interconnectedness of all parts of the universe and the inherent rightness or blessedness of the universe and human nature. Certainly Pagans believe that humanity can improve itself, but Pagans do not equate the human ability to make bad choices with a flawed nature.

Joyce and I believe that the concepts of interconnectedness and blessedness are what link together most of the divergent paths and traditions within Paganism. Yet they are not the only common threads Pagans share, as you shall see throughout this book. However, if you come away from here with no other knowledge of Paganism than the concepts of interconnectedness and blessedness and what Pagans mean by them, then you will have gained something of value.

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posted October 12, 2013 05:04 AM            

(I didn't want to do one big post and then the thread get all glitchy.)

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General Characteristics of Paganism

In addition to the two central themes of interconnectedness and blessedness, what other characteristics common to Paganism as a whole can we identify?

Paganism is a religion. As in other religions, Pagans seek answers to ultimate questions such as what is the meaning of life, what happens after death, is there a God, what is our basic nature, and how do we interact with the greater universe. Pagans seek these answers in the context of a religious and social community. Pagans gather in churches, homes, or outdoors, and meet in groups that may be called, among other things, circles, covens, churches, or groves. Unlike members of some religions, however, Pagans generally do not actively proselytize. They do not send out missionaries, hold revivals, or try to gain converts. Almost none of the Pagans we know 'converted' to Paganism in
the traditional sense. They became Pagan by deciding that Paganism reflected
what they already believed and then adopted the word 'Pagan' to describe
themselves.

Like other religions, Pagans have clergy who perform religious functions such as marriages and funerals. Pagans also observe a sacred year and have religious holidays and other celebrations. Most modern Pagan traditions are described as 'earth-centered.' Pagan holidays often fall on dates that mark the change of seasons or are otherwise seasonally important. We take a look at the Pagan sacred year and how it is celebrated later in this chapter.

Paganism is a modern religion. Paganism is a new religion, even though it may borrow concepts and practices from any spirituality, including those now fading or extinct. Paganism is classified as a new religion by social scientists who report that Paganism exhibits all six features of new religious movements. These are (1) a pronounced religious individualism, (2) an emphasis on experience instead of belief and doctrine, (3) a practical perspective on matters of authority and practice, (4) an acceptance and tolerance of other religions and worldviews in general, (5) a holistic worldview, and (6) an open, flexible organizational framework.1

Pagan traditions also meet the test of a religion as applied by the U.S. courts. Characteristics that courts look for include historic longevity, number of devotees, the existence of clergy, religious literature, ceremonies, and holidays. The federal courts correctly recognized Wicca, the largest of the Pagan traditions, as a religion in the case of Dettmer v. Landon (1986).2 In this case, the court found that Wicca exhibits the characteristics of a religion as outlined above.

Paganism has no central hierarchy or dogma. Paganism is a religion that as a whole has no central hierarchy or dogma, though individual traditions may adopt an internal governing structure and specific beliefs. Some Pagan paths have a specific ethnic focus, such as the Asatru, African, and Celtic Traditionalists. Others pull together many Pagan and non-Pagan religious beliefs and practices and blend them into a unique religious expression, such as the Eclectic and Blended paths. (We look at a variety of these traditions later in the chapter.) Most Pagans enjoy spiritual diversity and would not think it appropriate for all Pagans to believe the same things, practice in the same ways, or be organized under the same structure.

Paganism stresses personal responsibility. Most Pagan traditions stress personal responsibility and put the burden of developing spiritual practices, beliefs, and ethics on to the individual. Even those traditions that offer established beliefs and methods encourage their members to test ideas so that members build the mental muscles necessary to judge the soundness of beliefs for themselves. Those traditions that offer established moral guidelines also tend to encourage their members to explore ethical ideas so that members can find their own ethical sense and form their consciences accordingly. With this freedom comes a corresponding responsibility; a responsibility for one's beliefs, behavior, and degree of spiritual development. As friend and fellow author Dana Eilers once humorously observed to us, "Some religions are a restaurant. You sit down and they bring you what they're serving for dinner. Paganism is a buffet. If you want to eat, you have to get up off your butt and serve yourself."

On the whole, Paganism's approach to the issue of personal responsibility is very empowering for the individual. It is also empowering for the greater society as the number of mature and self-directed individuals in it increases.

Paganism offers a different worldview. Paganism is one of the first religions that deliberately incorporates new perspectives from science, metaphysics, and mysticism into its spirituality and consciously breaks from the traditional Newtonian view of the world. (These concepts are explored further in chapter 5.) Pagans tend to see all parts of the universe--from the smallest atom to the largest planetary system--as sacred and having some form of consciousness or spark of intelligence. Most Pagans believe that this living universe is able to communicate to all parts of itself on one or more levels, and that these parts can choose to cooperate together for specific ends. Pagans call this cooperation magick.

Paganism is a spirituality. Paganism is a way of living, praying, and connecting to the flow of the universe. Pagan spirituality addresses the existence and nature of Deity, the relationship of ourselves and the universe with the Divine, the nature and scope of human existence, what happens to us after death, the nature of the physical and nonphysical universe, and our relationship to that universe. Spiritual practices among Pagans are quite varied and include everything from formal ritual to meditation, quiet walks, singing, dancing, healing, divination, ecstatic sex, working with herbs, gardening, and massage. Just about any activity can be incorporated by a Pagan into his or her spirituality.

Paganism is protected by law. The freedom to hold and practice the religion of one¿s choice is a hallmark of liberty in the United States as well as several other countries. It is a right enjoyed by American citizens regardless of their affiliation as a liberal, conservative, Democrat, or Republican. President George W. Bush, a Republican conservative, stated in a speech given to a joint session of Congress on September 20, 2001, following terrorist attacks against the United States that, "No one should be singled out for unfair treatment or unkind words because of their ethnic background or religious faith." He also pointed out that if the citizens of the United States intend to defend their principles, then their 'first responsibility is to live by them.' Paganism is protected in the United States under the First Amendment and various civil rights acts. One of the largest of the Pagan traditions, Wicca, is formally recognized as a religion in the case of Dettmer v. Landon, as mentioned earlier. Pagans in the military are allowed to practice their religion on military bases, as are Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus.

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posted October 12, 2013 05:18 AM            

(I didn't want to do one big post and then the thread get all glitchy.)

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What Does 'Pagan' Mean?

The word Pagan comes from the Latin word paganus, which means 'country dweller.' It may have been a derogatory term created by city dwellers to describe 'those hicks out there,' much like the word 'redneck.' Because 'pagan' tended to have a negative meaning, it was later adopted as an insult.3 During the Crusades, the Christians called the Muslims 'pagans,' and later, Protestants and Catholics flung the word at each other.4 Eventually,'being pagan' meant someone without religion.5

Since the word 'Pagan' has been adopted by the Pagan movement, some of its perceived stigma has lessened. At the very least, the word helps us to think about the labels history applies to those who differ from conventional Western thought. Some Pagans don't like the word and use other terms to describe their path, such as African Traditional Religion, Native Spirituality, Celtic Spirituality, Heathenry, Earth-Centered Spirituality, European Traditional Spirituality, the Elder Faith, and the Old Religion.

Joyce and I occasionally run into Pagans having a debate over whether the term 'Pagan' or 'neo-Pagan' should be used. The term 'Pagan,' after all, refers to ancient, tribal, and usually pre-Christian cultures that are mostly extinct. To avoid confusion between historical Paganism and the modern movement, many social scientists and Pagans alike have decided they prefer the word 'neo-Pagan.'

The noted author and Druid Isaac Bonewits goes further. He uses the word 'paleopaganism' to describe 'the original tribal faiths of Europe, Africa, Asia, the Americas, Oceania and Australia.' A few of these tribal faiths, such as Hinduism, Taoism, and Shintoism, whose adherents number in the millions, have survived to the present. Next, Bonewits describes 'mesopaganism' as re-creations of paleopagan systems, usually with influences from Judeo-Christian thought. Some of his examples are Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism, Theosophy, Voudon, Santeria, and Sikhism. His third category is 'neopaganism,' which he defines as religions created from the 1960s onward, and that "have attempted to blend what their founders perceived as the best aspects of different types of paleopaganism with modern `Aquarian Age¿ ideals."6

We leave it to you to decide how to refer to your spiritual path. In this book, however, we use the word 'Pagan.'

Who Is a Pagan?

The word 'Pagan' is a label that identifies you as a person who agrees with one or more parts of Pagan philosophy, and who may participate in observances or practices common to Pagans. In the broadest sense, Paganism is an umbrella term that describes a multitude of religious and spiritual traditions. This is not unique to Paganism. Most of us are already familiar with Christianity as an umbrella term that describes a myriad of denominations and groups. These include Methodists, Catholics, Baptists, Mormons, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and Jehovah's Witnesses, to name a few. If we try to define Christianity in a sentence we will find it difficult. Moreover, we will not be able to capture in that sentence the differences between Catholics and Mormons, for example. Pagans are in the same boat, and yet are frequently asked by friends, family, and journalists to describe all of Paganism in a sentence or a sound bite.

Let's take a look at the Pagan umbrella (Figure 1.1). Under Paganism's umbrella are found such diverse traditions as Wicca, Shamanism, Asatru, Eclectic, Family Traditions, Celtic Traditionalism, Druidism, Strega, Santeria, Voudon, Ceremonial Magick, Mystery Traditions, solitaries, as well as a wide variety of Blended paths such as Judeopaganism, Christopaganism, Buddhistpaganism (or Easternpaganism), and so on. These traditions, while spanning many centuries and cultures, share at least one of several characteristics: they are indigenous, earth-centered, contain magickal elements, recognize both male and female deities, were suppressed or eradicated by another religion, or stress a connection to and respect for the natural world.

In other words, Paganism is a broad term that acts as an umbrella under which many different traditions find a home. Joyce and I have been asked, "So are you Wiccan or are you Pagan?" This like asking, "So are you Baptist or are you Christian?" Wiccans are Pagans, but not all Pagans follow a Wiccan path, in the same way that Baptists are Christians, but not all Christians are Baptists. To answer the question of what Joyce and I are, we would reply that we are 'Eclectics.' What does that mean exactly? Below we take a brief look at each of the Pagan traditions. Unfortunately, it is beyond the scope of this chapter to explain the various traditions in detail. The study of even one tradition can, and does, fill many books. So many books, in fact, have been written on most of these paths and traditions that you should have no trouble finding further reading. Just check with your bookseller by subject.

Wicca. Wicca is the single largest tradition within Paganism; nearly half of all Pagans are Wiccan.7 Wiccans follow an earth-centered calendar of eight festivals a year, and believe that Deity manifests in both male and female forms often called 'the God' and 'the Goddess.' The Wiccan ethic is set out in the Wiccan Rede, which states, "If it harm none, do what you will."

Gardnerian Wicca. This is the name given to the branch of Wicca begun by Gerald Gardner in 1939.

Alexandrian Wicca. This is an adaptation of the Gardnerian tradition. It was begun by two of Gardner's students, Alex and Maxine Sanders, during the 1960s. Both Gardnerian and Alexandrian traditions tend to use set ritual forms and more hierarchical degrees of training than other forms of Wicca.

Dianic Wicca. This is a Wiccan path that focuses on the strong female Deity Diana. Dianic groups often allow only women members and may concentrate only on Goddess energy. Specifically, they work with the images of Goddess as maiden, mother, and crone, known as the Triple Goddess. The term ¿Dianic¿ was first used by Margaret Murray, author of The Witch-Cult in Western Europe in 1921.8

Faery Wicca. Those who practice Faery Wicca work specifically with nature spirits.

Strega. This is an Italian tradition of Wicca that emphasizes herbal knowledge and tends to be strongly matriarchal.

Shamanism. Shamanism is a Pagan tradition that involves going into a trance state in order to perform a variety of works, which may include healing and divination. Shamanism is considered by some to be the oldest Pagan tradition.9 It is also found in cultures and religions not necessarily considered Pagan. The shamanic Pagans we know may follow a particular shamanic tradition or combine practices from several; they do not necessarily use Wiccan techniques such as casting a circle, calling the directions, and inviting Deities, although they might if they consider themselves Shamanic Wiccans.

Asatru. Those who practice Asatru devote themselves to the Nordic, Germanic, and Icelandic Deities, and may do soto the exclusion of all other Deities by a voluntary covenant.

Eclectic. Those who practice Eclectic Paganism combine what they believe to be the best elements from a variety of Pagan, and possibly non-Pagan, traditions.

Family Traditions. This Pagan tradition involves beliefs and practices that are passed down through a family over the generations. The practice of the tradition may be informal and involve no ritual, but its origins are frequently Pagan. The connection to Paganism may be downplayed, denied, or combined with Christian elements. A well-known surviving example is the Germanic Pow-wow tradition, which has its origins in German witchcraft and has been modified into faith healing.10

Celtic Traditionalism. This describes groups, or clannads, whose goal is to re-create pre-Christian Gaelic religion and society.

Druidism. Druidism is a revival tradition that attempts to re-create the Druidic system and may or may not be combined with Celtic Traditionalism. Since the Druids left few written records of their practices and rituals, modern Druidism tries to infer what was done.

Santeria and Voudon. These are traditions that developed among Africans, especially followers of the Yoruban religion, which later spread into Central and South America. Voudon is based in Haiti, and Santeria in Central America, South America, Puerto Rico, and some portions of North America. As was mentioned earlier, Isaac Bonewits describes Santeria and Voudon as 'mesopagan' traditions. Many, though not all, of the Pagans we know who combine aspects of Santeria, Voudon, or Yoruba into their spirituality are ethnically connected to these cultures and have frequently told us that their study of these 'mesopagan' faiths brings them closer to their cultural origins.

Ceremonial Magick. This describes traditions that usually involve precise rituals, words, and tools, and draw heavily on the writings of Aleister Crowley and the Order of the Golden Dawn. The Golden Dawn was a prominent occult society founded in Britain in 1887 by a small group of Rosicrucians. Its complex set of rituals are set out in the book The Golden Dawn by Israel Regardie. Ritual magicians who focus on Crowley's works and ritual forms are known as Thelemics.

Mystery Traditions. This Pagan tradition includes those who study the ancient Greek, Roman, or Egyptian Mystery Traditions, particularly those practiced between three and five thousand years ago.

Solitary. This term describes a person who practices alone, regardless of tradition. This does not mean that solitaries never enjoy being with a group or community of Pagans. We know many solitaries who attend public Pagan functions in our city. They do not, however, have an interest in joining a circle or coven on a permanent basis.

Blended Traditions. This term describes traditions that deliberately blend together two paths. Examples include Judeopaganism, which is often strongly matriarchal and blends certain ancient Jewish customs with an earth-centered practice. We have a friend who calls herself a 'Jewitch,' for example. Christopaganism blends some Christian beliefs and practices with Paganism. Christopagans may pray the rosary and work magickally with angels, archangels, and other spirits. In our experience, most Christopagans revere Jesus and believe that his teachings are loving and beneficial to the world and are in no way in opposition to the principles of Paganism. We have also met Pagans who blend some aspects of Buddhism and other Eastern traditions into their spiritualities. In addition to Pagan observances, their spiritual practices may include periods of meditation, yoga, t¿ai chi, or the martial arts.

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posted October 12, 2013 05:24 AM            

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How Many Pagans Are There?

Since there are no membership lists, getting a head count of Pagans is a challenge. Modern efforts to document Pagans began in Britain in the 1950s during a revival of interest in Paganism. The revival was encouraged by the repeal of the antiwitchcraft laws in England in 1951 and the publication of Gerald Gardner¿s book Witchcraft Today.11 At that time, the number of Pagans in the United States was probably low, but no records were kept. The British revival grew and by the 1960s Paganism had become fairly popular in the United States. However, the emergence of a sizable Pagan presence in the U.S. did not occur until the 1970s, and was aided by the publication of two books, Margot Adler¿s Drawing Down the Moon and Starhawk¿s Spiral Dance, both of which are still popular today.

One of the earliest scholarly studies of Paganism was conducted by Marcello Truzzi in 1972. At that time he estimated Wiccans to number 3,000 in the United States, but gave no data on the number of Pagans as a whole.12 Based on data collected in the mid-1980s, religious academics in the early 1990s estimated the number of Pagans in the United States to be approximately 300,000, a rather remarkable rate of growth in one decade.13 The mid-1980s population numbers were generated by the analysis of book sales, attendance at Pagan festivals, and studies of group membership patterns.

How many Pagans are there now? Unfortunately, there has been no population data collected by religious academics since the mid-1980s. Informal data can be found in polls and surveys, however, and these offer some food for thought. The website Survey.net conducts an ongoing religious survey for Internet users. Their survey includes categories such as Wicca, Druid, Faery, Old Gods, New Age, Ceremonial Magick, and Goddess Traditions. Near the beginning of 2002, 6.5 percent of Internet users who responded to the survey identified themselves as belonging to one of these categories.14 In September 2001, the United States government conducted a study in which it determined that Internet users in the U.S. numbered 143 million people.15 If we extrapolate the Internet survey percentage to U.S. Internet users as a whole, then as many as 9.3 million Internet users may be Pagan, or follow paths closely related to Paganism.

Another interesting figure comes from the Hart and Teeter Research Companies. The organization conducted a poll in October 1997 in which 4 percent of respondents answered they are involved in an ¿alternative religion.¿16 Although Pagans often refer to their spirituality as an ¿alternative religion,¿ the term would obviously include many religions other than Paganism. Even so, it is interesting that such a large percentage of the population, or approximately 10.8 million people if we extrapolate the survey percentage to the U.S. population as a whole, identify their spirituality as ¿alternative.¿

Along these same lines, a survey conducted in 1995 by Yankelovich Partners reveals that 8 percent of those polled had participated in ¿New Age¿ rituals and practices such as contacting the dead, spirit channeling, investigating past lives, mental telepathy, healing through mind power or crystals, consulting a fortuneteller or astrologer, or making plans based on their horoscope.17 This survey includes practices that are not exclusively Pagan. However, if we apply the survey percentage of 8 percent to the U.S. population as a whole, then it does indicate that 21.6 million people were apparently open enough to New Age, Pagan, and other alternative practices to participate in them.

We discussed the issue of Pagan population figures with a religious academic who has published studies on Paganism, and he believes that at the beginning of the twenty-first-century Pagans in the U.S. numbered about 1.25 million people. This is just his opinion, however. We will have to wait for another academic study to be released before we will know if he was correct.

How do the number of Pagans compare to other religions in the United States? According to 2002 World Almanac figures for ¿northern America,¿ which excludes Latin America and South America, Buddhists number just under 800,000, Hindus 1.3 million, Jews number 6 million, and Muslims number about 4.5 million. Even using the mid-1980s Pagan population figure of 300,000, Pagans constitute a significant minority. If future academic studies support the estimate of one million or more Pagans, then Pagans would indeed constitute a significant religious minority in the United States as of the turn of the twenty-first century.

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posted October 12, 2013 05:39 AM            

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Llewellyn's Samhain Sale

At harvest moon & hallowed eve, as spirits dance in spells we weave...

Honor the season with books of ritual & magic.

Get 20%, 35%, or 50% off tons of new releases, books, and decks!

Now through October 15, 2013 • FREE shipping on U.S. orders over $25.

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posted October 12, 2013 08:54 AM            

for neopaganism, i recommend:
the triumph of the moon by ronald hutton
drawing down the moon by adler...
and, modern wicca, by m. howard

the books above deal with neopagan traditions: wicca, celtic recon, druidism, etc....

for ceremonial magic, santeria, vodou...etc...i recommend finding specific books about these traditions, since these paths have little to do with the paths above.

unfortunately, the article is just making a messy scrambled eggs and dumping traditions that have nothing to do with one another together, which adds to the confusion that i already perceived in this thread.

and....oh my, try to tell people who practice santeria, native american traditions and vodu...that they are pagans just like neopagans....they will not like it and it is not an accurate term for them.
these african-derived religions are so much older than neopaganism....the same for native american spiritualities...
yes, they are pagan in the sense that they are not christian, jewish or muslim but...
they have nothing to do with modern paganism/neopaganism, whether it is wicca, celtic recon, druidism, etc....

in other words, avoid...if you can.
and...paganism is not a religion. sigh...

posted October 12, 2013 08:59 AM            

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Originally posted by Gabby:

I appreciate the time you took in posting all that to help me understand what you are saying. Very interesting and very kind of you!

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posted October 12, 2013 06:30 PM            

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Originally posted by hikoro:
here i come again but....
there are far more better books on neopaganism that are not published by llewellyn...
llewellyn is like the laughing stock publisher for many neopagan and traditional pagans....it is crapola.
llewellyn is more commercial with little accurate information...
if you dont believe me, google llewellyn is horrible/sucks...etc. you will find opinions written by neopagans. <-- I Googled that as you suggested and found nothing of the sort.

Llewellyn is a personal friend of mine and I think he is quite knowledgeable AND very well-spoken. Llewellyn and his plant scientist friends have helped me quite a bit on my personal path. I must admit, hikoro, (and maybe I'm biased), but especially with the coarse manner you phrased your criticism, I am finding it difficult to put a whole lot of stock in your opinion that all those books published by Llewellyn are 'crapola.'

for neopaganism, i recommend:
THE TRIUMPH OF THE MOON by RONALD HUTTON

Looks like an interesting book. I read the 'Look Inside' sneak-peek on amazon.com. I wish Amazon.com would let me copy & paste the excerpt. I'm not absolutely sure, but might be a little dark for my tastes though. (I can't even watch movies that are just a little bit scary. For example, the movie Mask with Jim Carrey is about as scary of a movie as I can handle.) Quoting from the book description:

"Here is a book that brings witchcraft out of the shadows. The Triumph of the Moon is the first full-scale study of the only religion England has ever given the world--modern pagan witchcraft, otherwise known as wicca. Meticulously researched, it provides a thorough account of an ancient religion that has spread from English shores across four continents.
For centuries, pagan witchcraft has been linked with chilling images of blood rituals, ghostlike druids, and even human sacrifices. But while Robert Hutton explores this dark side of witchery, he stresses the positive, reminding us that devotion to art, the natural world, femininity, and the classical deities are also central to the practice of wicca."

BTW brand new that book cost $20.00 on Amazon!

And, actually, if you compare the Amazon rating of the 'crapola' Llewellyn published book and the first book you recommend. The Llewellyn book on Paganism is rated higher (each book has about 80 reviews). (Don't even tell me Pagans and NeoPagans don't review books on Amazon!) See for yourself. I will even provide you with the links:

http://www.amazon.com/Pagan ism-Introduction-Earth--Centered-Religions/dp/0738702226/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381616531&sr=8-1&keywords=9780738702223

http://www.amazo n.com/The-Triumph-Moon-History-Witchcraft/dp/0192854496/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381610631&sr=8-1&keywords=triumph+of+the+moon+by+ronald+hutton

drawing down the moon by adler...
and, modern wicca, by m. howard

the books above deal with neopagan traditions: wicca, celtic recon, druidism, etc....

for ceremonial magic, santeria, vodou...etc...i recommend finding specific books about these traditions, since these paths have little to do with the paths above.

unfortunately, the article It was a book excerpt, NOT an article!is just making a messy scrambled eggs and dumping traditions that have nothing to do with one another together, which adds to the confusion that i already perceived in this thread. In the first book you recommended it spoke of some of the same traditions. In the book excerpt I posted, in the first paragraph, it says, "While variety of belief and practice is a SOURCE OF PRIDE for Pagans, it can sometimes be a source of confusion for others." Maybe that's why there is so much confusion!

and....oh my, try to tell people who practice santeria, native American <--I'm part native American. I know about history. I don't appreciate anyone telling me what to believe. I prefer to 'zip-it,' be a good listener, collect information and decide for myself.
traditions and vodu...that they are pagans just like neopagans....they will not like it and it is not an accurate term for them.
these african-derived religions are so much older than neopaganism....the same for native american spiritualities...
yes, they are pagan in the sense that they are not christian, jewish or muslim but...
they have nothing to do with modern paganism/neopaganism, whether it is wicca, celtic recon, druidism, etc....

in other words, avoid...if you can.
and...paganism is not a religion. sigh...

also...this information is readily available online...you can find this online.... I love real books. I have an enormous physical library...I'm talking in the thousands. How can you read online when there isn't any power or internet? I like to unplug...go to the cabin, go camping, go to the beach, etc...
instead of buying the book, read all you can online and then, when you find a path that is interesting (if that is what you're looking) then...buy a good book on that path....
just saying because im not sure that it is worth the money.
however, once more, the books i mentioned beforehand are far better.
Please tell us the Llewellyn titles you have personally read, on which you are basing your comparison and judgment? I still have to investigate the other two books you recommend...

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