posted December 12, 2016 03:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:

In other words, what do you do when you notice a complex article is based on inaccurate astrological data?

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Sorry LeeLoo, I didn't see this.

Usually i will respectfully debate the subject with a comment (saying that so much I feel like a broken record) then I move on. I think most people can form opinions for themselves. Again, there are old school LL folks that are amazing but I don't always agree with their findings or theories.

posted December 12, 2016 03:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ann7:
I'm not criticizing pointing out something that is a factual error. I'm criticizing the members lack of respecting others right to their perceptions of how the chart is read.

Faith mentioned that the chart is precise, that is very true. The birth chart is set, however everyones reading of said chart might differ slightly.

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Sorry, Ann but this is not the issue behind this particular conflict, the issue is the postage of 13 fakely represented/analysed famous charts in 3 subsequent articles in a row (in a week). Fake means those people don't have those aspects in their chart. All 13 of them. There was one article posted, a poster pointed out the errors, and the answer of the OP was and still is to post two more fake astro data articles, bigger, more complex. What do you do in such case?

There are numerous threads here where you can read what this is all about.

That's why I am urging everyone who wants to post an opinion about this particular conflict to instruct themselves what this is all about, otherwise it all gets unfair and unproductive.

I would still like to know what you do when you see articles based on incorrect astro data (incorrect birth date, incorrect birth time, incorrect aspects) since we are looking for solutions here, and this is part of the solution.

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted December 12, 2016 03:10 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
Nordicsoul,

Perhaps all that is needed then is a disclaimer or change of foirum titles.

"Beginners" could be described alluding to the brain-storming and *basic*, simplistic articles and threads regarding astrology.

Astro 2.0. could be renamed "Advancing Astrology" and described as having more of an onus on tested or verified data, or at least that which is in the process of being tested.

!

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posted December 12, 2016 03:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Sorry, Ann but this is not the issue behind this particular conflict, the issue is the postage of 13 fakely represented/analysed famous charts in 3 subsequent articles in a row (in a week). Fake means those people don't have those aspects in their chart. There was one article posted, a poster pointed out the errors, and the answer of the OP was and still is to post two more fake astro data articles, bigger, more complex. What do you do in such case?

There are numerous threads here where you can read what this is all about.

That's why I am urging everyone who wants to post an opinion about this particular conflict to instruct themselves what this is all about, otherwise it all gets unfair and unproductive.

I would still like to know what you do when you see articles based on incorrect astro data (incorrect birth date, birth time, aspects) since we are looking for solutions here, and this is part of the solution.

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Then take your issue to Randall.

I don't want to read what this is all about, what I want is a peaceful community.

My personal opinion is directed at all of you involved in the bickering, lol. You're all acting like little ******** .

The same as I wrote above, if I disagree I will say my peace and move on.

As far as astro data is concerned, I take all of it with a grain of salt. I don't know them personally and I wasn't there when they were born so I don't know if any of it is correct. What's to say that astro data isn't any more jacked then the person posting and interpreting the chart?

posted December 12, 2016 03:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ann7:
Then take your issue to Randall.

I don't want to read what this is all about, what I want is a peaceful community.

My personal opinion is directed at all of you involved in the bickering, lol. You're all acting like little ******** .

The same as I wrote above, if I disagree I will say my peace and move on.

As far as astro data is concerned, I take all of it with a grain of salt. I don't know them personally and I wasn't there when they were born so I don't know if any of it is correct. What's to say that astro data isn't any more jacked then the person posting and interpreting the chart?

It's a rhetorical question.

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No comment.

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted December 12, 2016 03:16 PM            

I think the real solution is to teach discernment by example. You are a shining example of an open heart and brilliant mind.

I agree that there should be a section for advanced studies, where standards can be spelled out. But even the scholars will need time away from that place and will want to shoot the astrological breeze in 2.0

posted December 12, 2016 03:30 PM            

1. source for chart data
2. source for statements either books, sites, or own research. mentioning the sample size would be helpful. to see how representative it is. The article should be written as we normally write research papers.
(i.e. according to this author bla bla, according to my own findings with clients with about 40 of them exibiting this aspect, i have noticed bla bla bla)
3. avoid plagiarism. not quoting or paraphrasing and not giving credit to source should be avoided.

how do you enforce that? well the same as research journals do. people submit articles to journal and a committee review it and if it does not comply with standards, then it should be excluded. as we have moderators, we can have a committee for article standard review. article not complying with standards agreed for the forum is rejected. or we can do retrospectively. article written and found to be faulty according to the standards are to be withdrawn.

of course first step to create such standards and second to enforce them.

posted December 12, 2016 03:48 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by venus2tinkerbell:
Voix, I don't think we will solve the problem this way. As well as having it's foundations in science, astrology is an intuitive art. You can't succeed against what is natural.

I think the real solution is to teach discernment by example. You are a shining example of an open heart and brilliant mind.

I agree that there should be a section for advanced studies, where standards can be spelled out. But even the scholars will need time away from that place and will want to shoot the astrological breeze in 2.0

hi everyone

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Venus,
yes, but even art has structure and form and these are necessary for it to surpass itself and evolve, I think. I am a musician, I learned initially by ear which I credit for my often out of the box chord, key and time signature changes, however, when it comes to the fine-tuning of a song, bridges, and harmonies, and predicting the direction, you really need a knowledge of the mechanics - which is basically maths!

What I am saying is that science and art are not enemies, they are natural partners that lead to the highest potential of mastery. Without one, something is always lacking. With both, you have the tools to really explore, evolve and create.

Now, why was I saying all this...? Sorry.

So, yeah, we must not be afraid to bring some structure to astrology, such as ethics, referencing, testing, etc. It will strengthen our knowledge and confidence.

I think some people may be afraid to bring logic near to art, but I'm sorry, there is an inherent logic to everything IMO, no action is taken without a reward or purpose, as a basic example of logic. In the case of music, it exists whether we like it or not. What may feel like a spontaneous inspirational chord progression is actually based on thousands of logical things the brain has heard, which the brain then arranges into *harmony*.

---- It is actually incredibly difficult to purposely play dissonantly! The brain hates it.

Anyway, sorry I went on - I always get a bit excited when talking about art

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I also think it is a good idea to keep a forum simply for astrological discussion, such as Astro 2.0. and have the two learning forums on either side - Beginners and Advanced.

I think what we have identified is that some structure in terms of the expectations of the information therein, would benefit the individual forums, by way of description or disclaimer, and these being respected by members posting there.

posted December 12, 2016 03:50 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by nordicsoul:
If I were worried about false information put in articles (fake charts, etc) I would set research based standards for articles. below and example

1. source for chart data
2. source for statements either books, sites, or own research. mentioning the sample size would be helpful. to see how representative it is. The article should be written as we normally write research papers.
(i.e. according to this author bla bla, according to my own findings with clients with about 40 of them exibiting this aspect, i have noticed bla bla bla)
3. avoid plagiarism. not quoting or paraphrasing and not giving credit to source should be avoided.

how do you enforce that? well the same as research journals do. people submit articles to journal and a committee review it and if it does not comply with standards, then it should be excluded. as we have moderators, we can have a committee for article standard review. article not complying with standards agreed for the forum is rejected. or we can do retrospectively. article written and found to be faulty according to the standards are to be withdrawn.

of course first step to create such standards and second to enforce them.

my two cents

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Omg, brilliant!

Yes.
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But... I would like to see this only for "articles". Like there are a lot of us who have medium-ish knowledge of astrology, and mostly come here with questions and knowledge that reflect as much.

Speaking for myself, I would not be drawn to a "beginner's forum", because it would be...well, full of beginners, and probably very few people trying to teach the basics or even middle levels of knowledge.

I definitely would feel uncomfortable posting in an "advanced" forum, because my knowledge and understanding is right in the middle, really.

It would feel like the forums at astro.com, which (no offense to anyone who frequents the forums) I avoid like the plague, and haven't visited in years because I find their ruler tapping forum etiquette beyond tiresome and rather arrogant/off-putting, in my opinion.

Anyway. I think NS has a fantastic idea there. For articles, and for anyone claiming to be a "professional astrologer". If you're charging money for your services and posting "articles" here, yes I think those things should be deemed credible in the same way that research papers are.

posted December 12, 2016 03:55 PM            

I am still thinking about the Advanced Astrology forum idea, since we have an issue related to the fact that both advanced and beginner posts are made in many forums here, not just one, for example in Interpersonal Astrology. I don't have a problem with that, but I also don't reject the idea of an Advanced Astrology additional forum.

I would like to address the issue of incorrect astrological data being posted. As a former moderator, I can attest that many moderators actually do point out when inaccuracies happen, when it comes to astrology, for the sake of keeping the discussion real. I saw Lalalinda do that, Ceri, Aubyanne, pretty much everyone, I did it myself, and also anyone who notices, moderator, beginner, advanced, consider this important and gently try to remedy the error. I've seen it and experienced it many times.

My suggestion is that in case incorrect astrological data or any kind of inaccurate data is spotted (by anyone) for it to be corrected as soon as possible, by its poster, before the conversation in that thread continues, in order to prevent the spreading of unintentional/intentional misleading information and possible conflicts.

How this is done, it all depends on the structure of the site, I suppose it's not a problem for this to be part of the Rules and Regulations in LL. If it doesn't work naturally.

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted December 12, 2016 03:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Violets:

Anyway. I think NS has a fantastic idea there. For articles, and for anyone claiming to be a "professional astrologer". If you're charging money for your services and posting "articles" here, yes I think those things should be deemed credible in the same way that research papers are.

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And this.

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted December 12, 2016 03:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:

Hypatia,
Yes, I think this is where the lines have blurred somewhat. Perhaps the title "Beginners" is off-putting to those who are seeking information, rather than seeking to actually learn.
If I were seeking information on a personal chart, I wouldn't head for "beginners". Even if I was wanting to learn, I would probably feel I would learn more from more experienced astrologers than I may find in a beginners forum - although, this is obviously NOT the best way to learn, but let's face it, many of us are tempted to run before we can walk.

Perhaps all that is needed then is a disclaimer or change of foirum titles.

"Beginners" could be described alluding to the brain-storming and *basic*, simplistic articles and threads regarding astrology.

Astro 2.0. could be renamed "Advancing Astrology" and described as having more of an onus on tested or verified data, or at least that which is in the process of being tested.

I get what you are saying about being a discerning student and astrology being an art, I guess what I am thinking is that LL has a reputation to uphold. It may be preferable to be associated with the scientific method as much as possible, as well as the obvious benefits in advancing our understanding.

Music is an art, but it is underpinned by solid mathematics!

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posted December 12, 2016 04:03 PM            

And then perhaps change the name of the beginner's forum to something along the lines of "the basics" for people who are just starting to learn about astrology?

Anyway.

posted December 12, 2016 04:16 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Violets:
I think if we're going to go with an "advanced astrology" forum, we should keep Astrology 2.0 the way that it is, except with the rules regarding "articles" (how would we define that, anyway) needing to be reviewed by a number of mods (preferably mods who are impartial and have knowledge of astrology).

And then perhaps change the name of the beginner's forum to something along the lines of "the basics" for people who are just starting to learn about astrology?

Anyway.

Good ideas here.

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Like you pointed out you would not gravitate to a beginner's forum, most people go straight to astrology 2.0 whether they are beginners or in the moderate level. That section could be put to better use if the label was changed maybe and Astrology 2.0 can be directed more for people in the moderate spectrum and a new section for advanced users can be added but then everyone will go to advanced users and the whole point is lost. Just pointing out how things can go wrong.

posted December 12, 2016 04:18 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
Like you pointed out you would not gravitate to a beginner's forum, most people go straight to astrology 2.0 whether they are beginners or in the moderate level. That section could be put to better use if the label was changed maybe and Astrology 2.0 can be directed more for people in the moderate spectrum and a new section for advanced users can be added but then everyone will go to advanced users and the whole point is lost. Just pointing out how things can go wrong.

At the end of the day though you can't control others and people will post things that are not valid sometimes and that is why I feel it comes down to personal responsibility which is something that should be taught early on as is part of building strong minds. However the community plays a role too in pointing out when information is not valid like you all have done that is why reviews are so important. If somebody keeps getting bad reviews their credibility does go down and they lose business that is how the market takes care of bad apples naturally all on its own.

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posted December 12, 2016 04:30 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Violets:
I think if we're going to go with an "advanced astrology" forum, we should keep Astrology 2.0 the way that it is, except with the rules regarding "articles" (how would we define that, anyway) needing to be reviewed by a number of mods (preferably mods who are impartial and have knowledge of astrology).

And then perhaps change the name of the beginner's forum to something along the lines of "the basics" for people who are just starting to learn about astrology?

Anyway.

Good ideas here.

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posted December 12, 2016 04:31 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
I love the constructivity of this thread, and especially the most recent posts.

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posted December 12, 2016 04:33 PM            

Otherwise, I know I'm very new here, but I'd like to add my view on this.

I see astrology as a blend between science and art, logic and intuition, as some said above.
And also, as others said above, I think that the responsibility for taking in and discerning information is individual, and how everyone digests it, that's their own business. Again, if I look around I see loads of information everywhere, that's the age we live in, and yeah, it's overwhelming, and chaotic. But I believe that this has in itself the amazing opportunity and push towards everyone taking back the authority to themselves and realising that they have the power and the responsibility to decide and own what they believe in, and not rely on an outside authority imposing knowledge on them. I think everyone finds their own teacher every time they need a lesson. And sometimes that lesson is that you need to research and discern yourself to find your own "truth".

Now, on a more specific level, if there is a need for a more advanced forum section, sure, by all means, go ahead, that sounds great.
I would vote for keeping this (or some) section as it is now though, you know, free and open. I like that we can discuss astrology and other stuff, life experiences, whatever, in the same time, under the same roof, of course, an astrological roof. And then everyone can take away their own conclusions. I love that.

Also, yeah if someone has something to say or have the need to correct some information, of course. I will do it as well, when I feel the need to. That's cool. Also I hate cold jokes that make fun of people. And I will always speak up when I see something like that. This is what I believe in.

posted December 12, 2016 04:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Cinnamon sky:
Sorry, I couldn't resist:

Otherwise, I know I'm very new here, but I'd like to add my view on this.

I see astrology as a blend between science and art, logic and intuition, as some said above.
And also, as others said above, I think that the responsibility for taking in and discerning information is individual, and how everyone digests it, that's their own business. Again, if I look around I see loads of information everywhere, that's the age we live in, and yeah, it's overwhelming, and chaotic. But I believe that this has in itself the amazing opportunity and push towards everyone taking back the authority to themselves and realising that they have the power and the responsibility to decide and own what they believe in, and not rely on an outside authority imposing knowledge on them. I think everyone finds their own teacher every time they need a lesson. And sometimes that lesson is that you need to research and discern yourself to find your own "truth".

Now, on a more specific level, if there is a need for a more advanced forum section, sure, by all means, go ahead, that sounds great.
I would vote for keeping this (or some) section as it is now though, you know, free and open. I like that we can discuss astrology and other stuff, life experiences, whatever, in the same time, under the same roof, of course, an astrological roof. And then everyone can take away their own conclusions. I love that.

Also, yeah if someone has something to say or have the need to correct some information, of course. I will do it as well, when I feel the need to. That's cool. Also I hate cold jokes that make fun of people. And I will always speak up when I see something like that. This is what I believe in.

Otherwise I think change has already happened, just by having these discussions, in an organic way. People get their own conclusions and they decide who and what to believe in.

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Beautifully put.

posted December 12, 2016 04:47 PM            

I think the gist of what most people are saying (and correct me if I am wrong) is 3 things:

Forum 1. A basic astrology forum, such as Beginners.

Forum 2. An exploratory forum for brain-storming, free association and ideas.

Forum 3. An advanced forum for advancing our knowledge through research, and testing hypotheses and ideas, possibly those generated from the exploratory forum.

*** With the disclaimer that certain types of assertions made in Forum 1. and 3. will be referenced in some way, and articles can be reviewed by a committee (brilliant idea)***

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I love the idea of Forum 3. a place where we can take those discoveries and ideas that show promise and potential. How exciting!

Everyone is putting so much thought into this, and some great ideas are being generated - this is great news for LindaLand, particularly as she enters young adulthood - how APT!!

posted December 12, 2016 05:33 PM            

Or most people. As right now there is already a Beginner forum and there is no traffic there. In my opinion the reason for that is, that the Beginner section right now is more of a static section, "I ask a question and wait for the answer"-type. And then say thank you, bye.
It seems that people need more interaction in a non-hierarchic manner.

I don't exactly understand how nr 3 would work, if you could expand on that?

posted December 12, 2016 06:34 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
OOhhhh I love the ARTICLES FOR REVIEWS idea that would be a positive way to critique biased information, everyone can express their opinion and people after can come up with their own conclusions.

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