posted December 12, 2016 01:11 PM            

I think many people feel it is a given that astrologers who are teaching and guiding others on LL will use as verifiable as possible data when stating assertions, and if they cannot verify or reference a source, they will state so and open a discussion thread rather than a fact-sheet/teaching thread.

However, the recent melee is in part as a result of this not happening.

Sure, astrologers will make mistakes, however, that's why referencing is so helpful! The astrologer can verify their information *prior* to posting it, or if they cannot verify it, they can state so.

If we cannot rely on the personal integrity of all astrologers on LL, would it be helpful to make this a rule for those posts that are aimed at educating?

Should we request an Advanced Astrology forum (to mirror the understandably more relaxed Beginners forum) where information is expected to have been tested over time and with experience, or referenced from Astrobank (or other appropriate sources)?

posted December 12, 2016 01:20 PM            

Faith,
perhaps it *shouldn't* be required. The reality is that not everyone is striving for accuracy, so what do we do?
Obviously this post is not referring to those who do strive for accuracy.

posted December 12, 2016 01:21 PM            

------------------
I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted December 12, 2016 01:24 PM            

1. a section for teaching material where people who post there are to follow rigorous standards (citing source, or state that is based on 1 case study or a larger sample of clients, et) for this section I suggest to have written these standars (like the standards from the APA association for example) that would raise the bar and will make people to be more careful about what they write.

2. an open forum (as it is now) for brainstorming ideas. this forum would be for people who has a question that bug them, or who has observed something and feel like sharing. I would not like for this to set the same standards as in 1 because then the spontaneity would be lost. I would like to just write any speculation I come up without having to remember where i read this or that.
this forum would have a warning sign that the opinions shared here are less research based and are anecdotal. that way we also have a space for speculation and brainstorming

posted December 12, 2016 01:33 PM            

Its always good to reference your work and ideally should always be done, I always do my research and just dont buy everything I read or hear in school or the media and in any astrological site no matter who the astrologer is; that is part of the process of exercising the critical thinking muscles in our brains. In a world with so much information you have to learn the skill for yourself to be able to break down different information and decide what is real or not. We cannot have a select few deciding for us what is real or not as that is dangerous as well as people are flawed and have their own agenda, we have to hone the skill to be able to research ourselves information spit out at us and determine its value or accuracy. Ofcourse we should always strive for accuracy, ofcourse we should always try to reference were we get information from but that will not always play out that way and we have to be able to check the facts ourselves.

posted December 12, 2016 01:45 PM            

Hypatia,
Yes, I think this is where the lines have blurred somewhat. Perhaps the title "Beginners" is off-putting to those who are seeking information, rather than seeking to actually learn.
If I were seeking information on a personal chart, I wouldn't head for "beginners". Even if I was wanting to learn, I would probably feel I would learn more from more experienced astrologers than I may find in a beginners forum - although, this is obviously NOT the best way to learn, but let's face it, many of us are tempted to run before we can walk.

Perhaps all that is needed then is a disclaimer or change of foirum titles.

"Beginners" could be described alluding to the brain-storming and *basic*, simplistic articles and threads regarding astrology.

Astro 2.0. could be renamed "Advancing Astrology" and described as having more of an onus on tested or verified data, or at least that which is in the process of being tested.

I get what you are saying about being a discerning student and astrology being an art, I guess what I am thinking is that LL has a reputation to uphold. It may be preferable to be associated with the scientific method as much as possible, as well as the obvious benefits in advancing our understanding.

posted December 12, 2016 01:54 PM            

I've been studying astrology for over 30 years and in no way do I know everything, nor do I claim to, nor have I to yet meet anyone that is an almighty astrology guru. This stuff takes a long time to learn.

What I have noticed is that each person will have their own perception of certain things based on their own experience, which, a lot of times, is going to be slightly different from the next persons (due to the individuals chart makeup)... And that is a good thing because, if we are truly open, we will learn from it.

We all come here to learn and share and we all need to be open to respectful debate.

And, no, I am not picking sides. The past few days has been a total cluster-**** on here. It would be nice to go back to normal.

posted December 12, 2016 02:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
Ann,
yes, there are many members at varying stages of learning astrology and ability to read charts. However, there are actually several professional astrologers who provide readings as a service to the public, who also offer support on LL to other learners, or have depth discussions with other pro-astrologers on here. So they are sharing information from their experience for free.
The same standards and ethics that apply to astrological services should also apply to free information from pro-astrologers, because their status means that they will be taken more seriously as a teacher.

---

Totally get what you are saying, however I don't think making a designated area for professionals will help (only hinder because everyone has an ego).

Not to mention, you will still have debates and people questioning ethics. There are some brilliant people on LL that are definitely advanced in their studies, that I highly respect but haven't always agreed with their opinions.

Also, please know I'm coming from a place of peace. I realize that this might sound aggressive, it's not meant that way.

posted December 12, 2016 02:17 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ann7:
Totally get what you are saying, however I don't think making a designated area for professionals will help (only hinder because everyone has an ego).

Not to mention, you will still have debates and people questioning ethics. There are some brilliant people on LL that are definitely advanced in their studies, that I highly respect but haven't always agreed with their opinions.

---

I don't mean to say there should be a designated area for professional astrologers, what I am thinking is that we can have a forum for those who are taking astrology further than the basics, what that brings with it is a responsibility to ethics. Therefore, a disclaimer may help keep those ethics in place.

Debates are just fine, healthy in fact! What is going on right now has surpassed debate IMO though, and we are at a stage where we need change.

I feel a forum has to evolve in-line with the community's needs - otherwise, what is the point?

posted December 12, 2016 02:36 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
I don't mean to say there should be a designated area for professional astrologers, what I am thinking is that we can have a forum for those who are taking astrology further than the basics, what that brings with it is a responsibility to ethics. Therefore, a disclaimer may help keep those ethics in place.

Debates are just fine, healthy in fact! What is going on right now has surpassed debate IMO though, and we are at a stage where we need change.

I feel a forum has to evolve in-line with the community's needs - otherwise, what is the point?

ETA: I didn't find you aggressive at all Ann

---

What is happening right now (in reference the arguing) is a lack of maturity and respect being executed by all of the members involved. It's pretty gross.

posted December 12, 2016 02:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
I don't mean to say there should be a designated area for professional astrologers, what I am thinking is that we can have a forum for those who are taking astrology further than the basics, what that brings with it is a responsibility to ethics. Therefore, a disclaimer may help keep those ethics in place.

---

posted December 12, 2016 02:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ann7:
What is happening right now (in reference the arguing) is a lack of maturity and respect being executed by all of the members involved. It's pretty gross.

I don't think it will fix what's currently going on but I would actually love a new thread with more advanced topics and I think your idea is a great one. (Approach the professional part carefully, though).

---

It is safe to say that over time, when issues aren't resolved, they will become heated very quickly and old wounds will be prodded with any new issue.

I guess we could say we have a backlog?

In saying that, I don't propose that this discussion will soothe old wounds, that is the responsibility of those involved, but there is a clear issue here around accuracy and ethics that I think we can all find a solution for.
I would see this as an issue aside from any old stuff that has been triggered.

posted December 12, 2016 02:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ann7:
What is going right now (in reference the arguing) is a lack of maturity and respect being executed by all of the members involved. It's pretty gross.

---

Well, part of the issue here is what do we do when we see an article posted here contains false astrological data (false charts), how do we react correctly?

This usually isn't or shouldn't be a problem, for example I posted an analysis last year, I think (I could look for the thread) where I used an incorrect TOB of Prince Charles, by error. It was immediately pointed out to me (by Orange, if I remember correctly), we corrected, we moved further with the interpretation/analysis.

Since you seem to criticize this approach, what approach do you suggest?

In other words, what do you do when you notice a complex article is based on inaccurate astrological data?

------------------
I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted December 12, 2016 02:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:
Beginning astrologers are entitled to quality assurance just like anyone. How can one even learn astrology when facts are treated as optional? The foundation of astrology is precision. It's one of the first things to learn: respect the charts. They are precise.

---

posted December 12, 2016 02:50 PM            

I sense, though, that there's a rocky history between 10 to 15 members here. Maybe even 20 members.

posted December 12, 2016 02:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Well, part of the issue here is what do we do when we see an article posted here contains false astrological data (false charts), how do we react correctly?

This usually isn't or shouldn't be a problem, for example I posted an analysis last year, I think (I could look for the thread) where I used an incorrect TOB of Prince Charles, by error. It was immediately pointed out to me (by Orange, if I remember correctly), we corrected, we moved further with the interpretation/analysis.

Since you seem to criticize this approach, what approach do you suggest?

---

I'm not criticizing pointing out something that is a factual error. I'm criticizing the members lack of respecting others right to their perceptions of how the chart is read.

posted December 12, 2016 02:55 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by mirage29:
((({{Sulky!!!! }}})))

---

posted December 12, 2016 02:56 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sulkyarcher:
I'm not new, but I haven't kept with all the threads, and all the controversy either.

I sense, though, that there's a rocky history between 10 to 15 members here. Maybe even 20 members.

I've been too busy trying to emotionally heal the past 9 years to read all the threads, so I sense a tension from the past here.

---

I think any community will have some unresolved stuff lurking around, however, this thread is for the purpose of coming up with solutions for concrete issues that have been raised.