posted October 03, 2021 08:02 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:

There are man who will abuse their power and you want to have your own security to keep that power in check. I am a realistic. Interdependence is healthy, dependence is not and financial dependence is a weakness that can be exploited and I am not going to pretend is not.

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I'm not sure you've read all of my responses because I've been very clear about what Security means to me and women of my ilk. Realist here!

I'm not projecting anything. I'm simply responding to exactly what you said and asked about. You seem very perplexed by the idea of ANY woman being a stay-at-home mom or allowing the man to be the breadwinner in their relationship. As though you see *only* negative in that scenario. That's what I am responding to. 🤷🏾‍♀️ I believe a woman can have a back-up plan without refusing to let a man provide for the home.

If a woman decides to STOP working altogether to focus on her home, nothing is wrong with that. 👍🏾 Does that make her vulnerable? Yes. But that's supposed to stop her from making her kids her top priority at that moment? No. You can't always do *both* things at the same time if you want to do them to the best of your ability. Husbands are there to relieve pressure.

I do feel a woman should have a solid savings of her own though, if she can. Absolutely! Or if she is working like 2-3 days a week with a little side business that she owns, that's awesome! ❤ In that scenario, her kids are still #1 *and* she's able to add to her security.

But a woman is much more vulnerable and taking a much bigger gamble marrying a man that is broke or financially unstable because all she wants to see is "love" and nothing else. That is not wise for her OR her children.

posted October 03, 2021 09:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:

But can we really say that our modern time will erase thousands of years of evolution?

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Of course it won't. Lol.

posted October 03, 2021 11:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
Hello Belage,

I actually love evolutionary psychology and have done a number of research reflective papers on it back when I was in grad school and as an undergrad as well.

That being said even though I like to understand the evolutionary basis of human behavior, I also feel some people get too caught up in the past and seem to think that evolution is fixed and deterministic, that we will forever be a product of what has worked for us in the past to adapt and that this cannot change.

evolve (v.)

1640s, "to unfold, open out, expand," from Latin evolvere "to unroll, roll out, roll forth, unfold," especially of books; figuratively "to make clear, disclose; to produce, develop," from assimilated form of ex "out" (see ex-) + volvere "to roll," from PIE root *wel- (3) "to turn, revolve." Meaning "to develop by natural processes to a higher state" is from 1832. Related: Evolved; evolving.

Evolve is a verb and it implies change and movement, it implies we are actively evolving into something more adaptive, some of our adaptive mechanisms that served us during primitive times may not serve us now in the same way they did then. We have cities now, buildings, cars, grocery stores, plumbing, electricity, roads, internet, commerce, international trade etc..we also have the morning after pill, pregnancy tests, tests that can help you determine if a child is yours and abortion is legal during the first trimester in most countries. At some point women use to have children at 12-13 years old, now they are choosing to wait until their 30s.

Even though my biological make up wanted me to desperately give birth in my teenage years I waited, I chose to over ride this intense biological urge to procreate and yes that may mean I won't be a mother, I definitely had two opportunities to go for it but did not feel ready and yes the consequences may be that I won't experience motherhood and that is okay if that is the case bc I have experienced a lot of other things that I may not have experienced if I become a mother early on.

Men have a biological drive to spread their seeds and F around but a lot of them choose to be faithful to their spouses despite that biological drive.

All that being said, this is why I don't identify as a Liberal or a Republican even though I lean more towards the right because I value freedom and feel freedom is the foundation of a healthy society and because I don't think money grows on trees. On one hand one side is obsessed with fixed gender roles and on the other hand we have the other side saying things like gender is a social construct and fluid or going as far as manipulating science to make it seem like gender is not real and coming up with a 100 different genders, I feel both sides take things to an extreme but the left with this whole now we all need tell each other our "pronouns" irritate me more but both sides irritate me in this regard for different reasons. For example, the right wants to convince me that women are happiest as stay at home mothers and I disagree, this does not align with the countless women who come to me complaining about being stay at home mothers even though they love their kids, women do have more to offer than being mothers and we are complex beings with complex needs, I wear many hats. I also don't like the left telling me that I need to sacrifice freedom for security, that the answer is always more control and more government and that we need to always be open minded to the point that we end up legalizing pedophilia as there are people in the left pushing for that.

I feel that it does not matter what our biological evolutionary predisposition is, we are evolving and will continue to evolve and regardless of our evolutionary predisposition, it undeniably puts you in a vulnerable position to depend on another person financially regardless of gender and that is also a reality that cannot be ignored.

Last, more than ever young men are pursuing older women and I feel that this has changed so much in the past few decades because women are more financially independent and more often than ever in bread winner roles and I will admit, I have no issues with this and don't mind seeing younger guys in their 20s. Also, if my guy leaves me for a younger girl, I will be fine, I can take care of myself and will find a new partner.

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It is always great to read your post as you know how to advance your arguments even if one does not agree with you.

I think what evolution give us is an instinctual desire or reaction. and I believe it is so for the majority of people. But we are not pure animals, bound by our instincts. As human beings, we have control over our instinctual reactions. A man see a beautiful sexy woman walking down the street and may have the instinctual desire to share his seed with her, but as a human being and adult, he knows to control that instinctual desire. But that doesn't mean it was not there.

There are also biological imperatives. The fact that we hardly find a culture where men stayed home with the kids while the women were out hunting and fighting tells us a lot.

for thousands of years, in a way, gender dictated part of our individual destiny. But that was before the newer planets like Uranus came into the human consciousness. Uranus changes things up, Uranus shakes up the status quo. The house placement of Uranus in a chart and how it interacts with our personal planets will tell us where the person will be unconventional and will easily chuck away evolutionary instinct.

Now, I would like to address your comment about dependence on another person financially putting you in a vulnerable position. In many situations, yes, if this is a marriage where the working man has his money, and lord it over the sahm woman, she doesn't really know how much money he makes, or she doesn't have access to his money. His money remains HIS money, and she is somehow getting an allowance. Yes, that is a very vulnerable position to be in, even if the allowance is large. However, I have known marriages where the woman did not work, yet had COMPLETE CONTROL over the finances of the couple. The husband focused on making the money and brought his entire paycheck home. There was no separate bank account, his money was her money was OUR money. I have known quite a few couples where the woman was a SAHM and the money the man made was OUR money. So how is she in a vulnerable position?

Personally, I think if I have to function from a fear position, fear of being vulnerable, that means I don't really trust the person I am with, and I don't want to be married to someone I don't trust financially. Been there, done that. Doesn't mean I advocate women be stupid and be sitting duck for untrusty men. I don't advocate you trust someone just because you are married to him, Trust him because you have come to know him deeply and you know he is trustworthy.

posted October 03, 2021 11:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LovelyAries86:
I'm not sure you've read all of my responses because I've been very clear about what Security means to me and women of my ilk. Realist here!

I'm not projecting anything. I'm simply responding to exactly what you said and asked about. You seem very perplexed by the idea of ANY woman being a stay-at-home mom or allowing the man to be the breadwinner in their relationship. As though you see *only* negative in that scenario. That's what I am responding to. 🤷🏾‍♀️ I believe a woman can have a back-up plan without refusing to let a man provide for the home.

If a woman decides to STOP working altogether to focus on her home, nothing is wrong with that. 👍🏾 Does that make her vulnerable? Yes. But that's supposed to stop her from making her kids her top priority at that moment? No. You can't always do *both* things at the same time if you want to do them to the best of your ability. Husbands are there to relieve pressure.

I do feel a woman should have a solid savings of her own though, if she can. Absolutely! Or if she is working like 2-3 days a week with a little side business that she owns, that's awesome! ❤ In that scenario, her kids are still #1 *and* she's able to add to her security.

But a woman is much more vulnerable and taking a much bigger gamble marrying a man that is broke or financially unstable because all she wants to see is "love" and nothing else. That is not wise for her OR her children.

BTW - we do agree that the Political Left is much too extreme now and the Political Right is sometimes too rigid. 💯 Freedom is important to me as well.

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I agree with everything you said here. I mentioned in another post that if I have kids it would be nice to have the option to stop working or to work less for a while and I said that we are finally at that point in our relationship were I could work less if I get pregnant if I wanted to and focus more on being a mother, I just personally would not want to stop working completely bc yes I feel it puts me in a vulnerable position but totally get the desire to be a full time mother at least for a while and is nice to lean on your partner during those times but most women usually eventually get fatigued doing the full time mom thing and want to have at least a part time on the side eventually when the right time comes as it is hard to do both, I totally agree so get the need for flexibility with this.

"But a woman is much more vulnerable and taking a much bigger gamble marrying a man that is broke or financially unstable because all she wants to see is "love" and nothing else. That is not wise for her OR her children."

posted October 04, 2021 02:31 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:

However, I have known marriages where the woman did not work, yet had COMPLETE CONTROL over the finances of the couple. The husband focused on making the money and brought his entire paycheck home. There was no separate bank account, his money was her money was OUR money. I have known quite a few couples where the woman was a SAHM and the money the man made was OUR money. So how is she in a vulnerable position?

Personally, I think if I have to function from a fear position, fear of being vulnerable, that means I don't really trust the person I am with, and I don't want to be married to someone I don't trust financially. Been there, done that. Doesn't mean I advocate women be stupid and be sitting duck for untrusty men. I don't advocate you trust someone just because you are married to him, Trust him because you have come to know him deeply and you know he is trustworthy.

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^^All of this. 💜💜 *standing ovation*

If I can't trust you, I would never be married to you in the first place. And any man that I marry would understand the plethora of reasons why I'm an asset to him whether I'm a SAHM or a CEO. 💯 Period.

posted October 04, 2021 03:08 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
I agree with everything you said here. I mentioned in another post that if I have kids it would be nice to have the option to stop working or to work less for a while and I said that we are finally at that point in our relationship were I could work less if I get pregnant if I wanted to and focus more on being a mother, I just personally would not want to stop working completely bc yes I feel it puts me in a vulnerable position but totally get the desire to be a full time mother at least for a while and is nice to lean on your partner during those times but most women usually eventually get fatigued doing the full time mom thing and want to have at least a part time on the side eventually when the right time comes as it is hard to do both, I totally agree so get the need for flexibility with this.

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I'm glad we found some common ground here. 🙂

Every woman needs some me-time.
Every mom needs a break.

Hobbies, side jobs, date nights, etc are *always* essential for a woman's well-being. We deserve to live life FULLY. ❤ I support moms *regularly* having a Spa Day for herself -- even better when her husband offers it to her for all that she does for their home. Need an afternoon Happy Hour to laugh, drink wine & catch up with your girlfriends?? Do it! 🍷 You deserve to have some fun. No need to feel guilty about this.

Things only become problematic when your kids aren't your #1 priority. 💯 When you are putting your job or some random new boyfriend ahead of them - OH HELL NO; When your kids are *more* attached to a nanny or daycare provider because they NEVER really see you, that's not okay; When you neglect your husband, refuse his help and expect him to be content with that, you are DEAD WRONG.

Balance is key!!!

posted October 04, 2021 03:22 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PlutoWasHere:
I think it's smarter to be able to provide your own financial security. You really don't want to be dependent on someone who might not be as charming as you thought they were.

The 2nd house is the house of value and money (Taurus) while the 8th house is the house of shared resources (Scorpio). I have my nnode in H2 and feel financial independance is very important to me. So maybe someone with nnode in H8 will want someone to provide for them.

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I have my north node in the second house as well and I couln't imagine relying on my partner financially. I don't really like to rely on anyone for anything really but especially not financially. Having your own money means indepence and security in case the relationship goes south and I would always recommend people to take care of that.

posted October 04, 2021 10:20 AM            

Nice to see the female's perspective on things. Everything should be 50/50 but some men and women do luck out by partnering with a spouse with low self esteem just so they can get whatever they want from them. And exploit their weaknesses. As a Pisces Sun, Leo Mars I stand up for the underdog and confront that outdated and low-down behavior. I get hated on for speaking my intuition (Moon-Mercury conjunction in 3rd). Pluto in first and Mars Square my ascendant makes me come off as a bad boy. Even with my 1st house Jupiter.

I'm often noted for my passion. Also I do have a band and talent for entertaining rather than creating. Everyone deep down knows I'm the freaking show, when I come out everyone all of a sudden gets on their A game. Inspiration is who I am. I may be poor, but for now I am content with who I am. More money more problems. People have a knack for unconsciously mocking/matching (accentuate) my energy too. Which is SUPER annoying. I understand how Kurt Cobain felt and I'm not even famous. But with social media and lack of appreciation for art anymore, why should I care?? Don't mind when girls copy me, I think it's cute. But guys on the other hand.....get a life. I can snuff out and pick apart a hater like I have a P.H.D

@hypatia I see u with that Leo Venus! My ex had that, also my crush Pamela Anderson does too. They even had the same birthday but 30 years apart.

posted October 04, 2021 12:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:
It is always great to read your post as you know how to advance your arguments even if one does not agree with you.

I think what evolution give us is an instinctual desire or reaction. and I believe it is so for the majority of people. But we are not pure animals, bound by our instincts. As human beings, we have control over our instinctual reactions. A man see a beautiful sexy woman walking down the street and may have the instinctual desire to share his seed with her, but as a human being and adult, he knows to control that instinctual desire. But that doesn't mean it was not there.

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Yes that is the point I am making that you can feel the biological urge and not act on it yet that urge is very strong and we are told to ignore it, just like men feel attracted to many women, I as a women feel attracted to many men and also have to really fight my desire nature and not act on it and sometimes I have, evolutionary psychology always normalizes that man want to spread their seeds so is okay for them to want to be with many women but I have come across many man with low sex drives so is super easy for them to be faithful and many women with high sex drives and vice versa, this is also a stereotype that is reinforced by "evolutionary psychology" that I find does not match fully current trends. People may argue that now in our world there is plastic and this has altered the hormonal balance in men and so that is playing a role with this which shows you that we are evolving, in this case what we introduced to the environment is disrupting our hormones and is having negative consequences but none the less is changing our biology so yes things are changing and will continue changing. The libido for many men is changing and causing infertility issues for many (among other environmental contributors).

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:

for thousands of years, in a way, gender dictated part of our individual destiny. But that was before the newer planets like Uranus came into the human consciousness. Uranus changes things up, Uranus shakes up the status quo. The house placement of Uranus in a chart and how it interacts with our personal planets will tell us where the person will be unconventional and will easily chuck away evolutionary instinct.

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Yes Uranus which conjuncts my chart ruler and rules my 2nd house plays a role for sure in my inclination towards working and wanting financial freedom, then you add northnode in the 6th, sun in virgo, mercury in virgo in the 9th and that my 2H co ruler saturn conjuncts pluto in the 10th and you see there is a lot in my chart pushing me to be career women, my career houses are strongly highlighted and this happens to many women and they would not feel fulfilled just being mothers and nothing more.

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:

There are also biological imperatives. The fact that we hardly find a culture where men stayed home with the kids while the women were out hunting and fighting tells us a lot.

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Slavery played an evolutionary adaptive role in helping humans survive but we needed to outgrow that way of adapting and surviving and evolve into a better system, just bc a pattern worked for a long time doesn't mean we are supposed to stay in that pattern forever, evolving means changing into better ways of adapting. I respect your views and love your mind but is only natural we will disagree sometimes. Having Uranus conjuncting my chart ruler makes me love the idea of evolving and breaking away from biological predispositions bc to me that is not being free.

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:

Personally, I think if I have to function from a fear position, fear of being vulnerable, that means I don't really trust the person I am with, and I don't want to be married to someone I don't trust financially. Been there, done that. Doesn't mean I advocate women be stupid and be sitting duck for untrusty men. I don't advocate you trust someone just because you are married to him, Trust him because you have come to know him deeply and you know he is trustworthy.

For me, the issue of trust runs deep. I will never marry again unless I can trust that person completely. That means trusting him with my body, my emotions and my finances. That may be idealistic, but this is where I am.

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I trust my husband, the issue is that things happen, something can happen to either of us that is not in our control, one day the economy crashes and his business stops doing as well, strangely his business was not impacted by covid, one day I could lose my license and not be able to practice counseling, I think if only one of us is working and one of this things happen it puts us in a vulnerable position financially, I am just careful, saturn co-rules my 2nd house and conjuncts pluto in the 10th, I like to be smart and set myself up so that if either of us are dealing with setbacks we can get through it by budgeting. One of us could die too out of the blue, is just better IMO for both to work, to me that feels more like a partnership and like we are doing life together.

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:

Now, I would like to address your comment about dependence on another person financially putting you in a vulnerable position. In many situations, yes, if this is a marriage where the working man has his money, and lord it over the sahm woman, she doesn't really know how much money he makes, or she doesn't have access to his money. His money remains HIS money, and she is somehow getting an allowance. Yes, that is a very vulnerable position to be in, even if the allowance is large. However, I have known marriages where the woman did not work, yet had COMPLETE CONTROL over the finances of the couple. The husband focused on making the money and brought his entire paycheck home. There was no separate bank account, his money was her money was OUR money. I have known quite a few couples where the woman was a SAHM and the money the man made was OUR money. So how is she in a vulnerable position?

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posted October 04, 2021 12:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Radium:

@hypatia I see u with that Leo Venus! My ex had that, also my crush Pamela Anderson does too. They even had the same birthday but 30 years apart.

Love u ladies. Going ghost.. Pisces out

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hahahahaha

Not going to lie that my venus in Leo enjoyed that.

Pisces rules man! and I love pluto conjunct AC.

posted October 04, 2021 12:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LovelyAries86:
I'm glad we found some common ground here. 🙂

Every woman needs some me-time.
Every mom needs a break.

Hobbies, side jobs, date nights, etc are *always* essential for a woman's well-being. We deserve to live life FULLY. ❤ I support moms *regularly* having a Spa Day for herself -- even better when her husband offers it to her for all that she does for their home. Need an afternoon Happy Hour to laugh, drink wine & catch up with your girlfriends?? Do it! 🍷 You deserve to have some fun. No need to feel guilty about this.

Things only become problematic when your kids aren't your #1 priority. 💯 When you are putting your job or some random new boyfriend ahead of them - OH HELL NO; When your kids are *more* attached to a nanny or daycare provider because they NEVER really see you, that's not okay; When you neglect your husband, refuse his help and expect him to be content with that, you are DEAD WRONG.

Balance is key!!!

When kids are getting close to their teen years and a mom decides to transition back into working full-time (if she so desires)... that makes sense to me. But being a workaholic when your kids are in their super young & formative years? I do not feel that is the best move. They need their moms more than EVER during that very tender & vulnerable time. 💜

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hahahahahha I overall like were you are coming from.

I looooooooooved the "Ohh HELLLL NOOOO," I say that too hahahaha

posted October 04, 2021 01:30 PM            

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Originally posted by LovelyAries86:
^^All of this. 💜💜 *standing ovation*

If I can't trust you, I would never be married to you in the first place. And any man that I marry would understand the plethora of reasons why I'm an asset to him whether I'm a SAHM or a CEO. 💯 Period.

He would see his money as **Our Money** since I bring enormous value, love & happiness to his life and the life of our children each day!

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posted October 04, 2021 01:38 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PlutoWasHere:
@kani, thank you for your input. I think that H2 placements, like nnode and Uranus definitely play a role when it comes to a need/desire for financial independence.

It is a very personal matter how someone wants to divide the roles in a relationship. This is clearly reflected in the discussions in this thread. In the end it’s there are a lot of different flavors possible and everything depends on the people involved if it will actually work. In addition, we each have our own personal experiences that color our perspective. Personally, I do not regret that I had the opportunity to generate enough income to be financially independent when needed. I do need it at the moment and I also really like my job. But I hope everybody ends up with the relationship that brings them the most joy and happiness.

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Yes, that's it in a nutshell.

People's attitudes and preferences will be reflected in their charts.

If something really works for you, do it, and don't worry about what other people think.

posted October 04, 2021 03:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:
Yes, that's it in a nutshell.

People's attitudes and preferences will be reflected in their charts.

If something really works for you, do it, and don't worry about what other people think.

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posted October 04, 2021 03:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PlutoWasHere:
@kani, thank you for your input. I think that H2 placements, like nnode and Uranus definitely play a role when it comes to a need/desire for financial independence.

It is a very personal matter how someone wants to divide the roles in a relationship. This is clearly reflected in the discussions in this thread. In the end there are a lot of different flavors possible and everything depends on the people involved if it will actually work. In addition, we each have our own personal experiences that color our perspective. Personally, I do not regret that I had the opportunity to generate enough income to be financially independent when needed. I do need it at the moment and I also really like my job. But I hope everybody ends up with the relationship that brings them the most joy and happiness.

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I do have an empty 2H but my 2nd house rulers are strongly highlighted in my chart.

Uranus 2H ruler conjuncts Chart ruler JUPITER exact. Making me want strongly financial independence that is self made and comes from me (since it conjuncts my Chart ruler).

posted October 09, 2021 09:10 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PlutoWasHere:
@kani, thank you for your input. I think that H2 placements, like nnode and Uranus definitely play a role when it comes to a need/desire for financial independence.

It is a very personal matter how someone wants to divide the roles in a relationship. This is clearly reflected in the discussions in this thread. In the end there are a lot of different flavors possible and everything depends on the people involved if it will actually work. In addition, we each have our own personal experiences that color our perspective. Personally, I do not regret that I had the opportunity to generate enough income to be financially independent when needed. I do need it at the moment and I also really like my job. But I hope everybody ends up with the relationship that brings them the most joy and happiness.

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