posted December 16, 2009 06:11 PM         

quote:

---

D: Hell yeah! Do you have any idea how hard it is to find paying work that's actually helpful to people, and doesn't just waste resources and make them lazier, sicker, more selfish, more superficial, and more ungrateful for the little things in life? I give people what they want. I do what I can, brother. At least I'm working.

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posted December 17, 2009 04:04 AM         

To qualify you must have 5 or more of the following...

Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

Requires excessive admiration

Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

Lacks empathy: Is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her

Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

These people are also referred to as emotional vampires.

posted December 17, 2009 06:29 AM         

I've met so many "Joe Shmoes" over the years, many in the warehouses and factories i've worked in, and more and more lately I'm noticing that they are the one's that have "got it". Really. No, they might not be able to win a philisophical debate with you, but they hold their heads up and keep plugging along to feed their families. Sometimes barely holding back the tears. They do it out of love and for survival and for many other reasons and though they may seem like stupid slaves to you, you are only seeing a surface of a person and making cases and excuses for yourself - to look better, to feel better about yourself. I'm noticing that as hard as things are for these people, they often take it in stride and are often less miserable than the so-called spiritual people I have met who constantly judge them and look down on them. And who are worried about looking too materialistic or whathaveyou to others. Or who are worried about living up to expectations and by some rules that some philosopher or guru thinks are right. The snobbish and holier-than-thou attitude i've seen in modern day "spiritual people" lately, is disgusting. It's also sort of amusing, in a sad way, to watch them fool themselves so badly.

I think of the spiritual people I know lately - 2 of them in particular and they are the most screwed up people I've known. They have what some people would label "character disorders". Whatever you want to call it, they don't make other people's lives fun and are deep down miserable themselves and think nothing of taking it out on others.

It's funny I used to look up to one in particular - was raised by her actually and believed in what they said. They sure could talk a great game and had a way of convincing you their theories where right and they new it all. Whether it was because they read the latest book, or took the latest healing energy class, they always had one up on you and you desperately needed to hear what they had to say and follow their "rules". They made arguments eerily similar to yours and don't let them go - ever. Each of them has been taken care of their whole lives by others, family and friends, and never had to struggle much. But if you asked them, they have struggled MUCH MORE (with the heavy burdens of the things they have to contemplate, or their wise beyond their years kind of mind, is what they have to say) when in reality, they havent and they don't have a clue what it's like to really struggle. I fell into thei trap for a period of time and echoed the things they said. No longer.

Try struggling with yourself, your mind, inner demons or whatever and also having to struggle to survive in the real world at the same time and then get back to me.

They are bombastic, phony, know-it-alls and i've come to realize not very spiritual at all, though they have convinced themselves they are greater and smarter than the average person. When, from what I can see, they are in a worse off position in reality. They can talk the talk because they are smart, clever, and usually manipulative, but as much as they think they are walking their talk, they arent and they are not much more than troublesome nuisances to those around them. Button-pushers that are so angry inside, they dont even realize how miserable they make others or much they project and insist that they are closer to God than the average man living in the material world and you have a lot to learn from them. It's sickening to me. These people cant seem to just Be and live and open their hearts fully.

The most caring and generous people I have met have ALWAYS been the ones that have struggled most - always. And i'm not talking about struggling with what goes on in their minds or depression - but they deal with that too on a very real level. It's the people who've been to the lowest of lows in the material world who are the first to give to other people. I've seen this play out time and time again.

I realize how much so now, that not being babied, spoiled, constantly praised, coddled and tip-toed around my whole life has made me a better person. Because i see how people who have been spoiled like this usually turn out. And it's the ones that are bent on spiritual matters and "fixing" or purifiying themselves that seem to be the worst off and their own worst enemies. They will blame everything on the simple working materialistic man though. Never having walked a mile in shoes even similar to his. And I think if they could, they might be surprised at just how wrong they were about them.

posted December 17, 2009 07:05 AM         

quote:

---

D: Hell yeah! Do you have any idea how hard it is to find paying work that's actually helpful to people, and doesn't just waste resources and make them lazier, sicker, more selfish, more superficial, and more ungrateful for the little things in life? I give people what they want. I do what I can, brother. At least I'm working.

---

It actually ISNT that hard. You start with the person working the machine belt or flipping the burger next to you. You forget about YOU for a second and the crappy job that you have to work and get in the moment and connect with someone around you. A real live person, a real live child of God, who might be in a lot of pain too. Is that too real or close for comfort for you? Nobody will see you do something great. Nobody will see you do something beautiful, or grow, or help someone. It will be a private moment between you and another soul that wont get you applause and you wont get your d!ck sucked for. A moment that will go unnoticed by many people. Because you don't have an audience, because you dont get to show off your mind to a small mass, is it not worth it to you?

You can stay in a safe, warm environment with people taking care of you, taking it easy or you can look people in the eyes and help people as you go about your writing business or whatever other kind of business you mind.

I've heard all the idiotic excuses drug dealers make to say that what they are doing is nothing different or worse than the average person is doing - particularly when i was in high school. Theyre all the same and they are all weak - people and arguments.

posted December 17, 2009 07:07 AM         

quote:

---

The most caring and generous people I have met have ALWAYS been the ones that have struggled most - always. And i'm not talking about struggling with what goes on in their minds or depression - but they deal with that too on a very real level. It's the people who've been to the lowest of lows in the material world who are the first to give to other people. I've seen this play out time and time again.

---

posted December 17, 2009 08:55 AM         

Exactly. Well said. T, I'm sure if you told those people who you admire for their struggles and triumphs just for the sake of living that you looked up to them, they would blush, say "oh, I'm nothing special" and carry on with what they had to do. Merit and praise mean nothing to them, just the love of the ones who matter in their lives. What you said was really beautiful. Thank you for sharing such a big part of your heart.

posted December 17, 2009 09:51 AM         

This is so important and such a lovely thought, what T said. I just wanted to shine a light on it again.

I didn't always feel this way. Various authors, painters and poets show me how. The ability to see beauty and nobility where others scoff or dismiss or simply turn a busy blind eye, is the most essential attribute of the Artist, I think ... and their most worthy gift to us is the opportunity to see through their eyes. There's no better food for the soul.

posted December 17, 2009 10:05 AM         

quote:

---

The thrust of the thread has more to do with examining the value of our work; who decides value, and how important is it to do valuable work, as opposed to superfluous or harmful work. Does anybody wish to post on topic?
I think it's fascinating how many jobs there are in the world that produce nothing of value, and that ultimately just waste time, energy, and resources, and often exercise a primarily negative moral, intellectual, physical, and/or spiritual influence. I'm not sure how eager we all are to examine such things. We tend to think of jobs as good and necessary things. We tend to think it is good if there are enough jobs for everybody. But, rather than distribute labor in such a way that everyone may work less, while doing only good and useful work, instead, we just generate more and more things to do. Pretty soon, we can't imagine living without all these things, -- things which we never even imagined, or missed, a hundred, two hundred, or a thousand years ago. This enormous amount of "busy work" interests me. Also, the people who do it, day in and day out, in order to "earn" a paycheck, interest me.

---

posted December 17, 2009 11:03 AM         

well, the truth is that people NEED A JOB TO EAT, HAVE A ROOF, EVENTUALLY BUY A NICE TV OR GO IN HOLIDAYS. ok, add go to the pub once in a while or by cocaine for some. as T brilliantly said about the crappiness of most jobs, people do sh!t jobs and will not get applause for doing it. they make the most of it in term of human experience while they look for being able to pay their landlord or mortgage at the end of the month because their children are dependent on them.

"we just generate more and more things to do. Pretty soon, we can't imagine living without all these things, -- things which we never even imagined, or missed, a hundred, two hundred, or a thousand years ago."

I know a woman, close to 70, she the sister in law of my mum. she's modern, u wouldn't give her her age, very cool and understanding woman. once this summer, she, her husband (over 70, a mechanic still athletic) and me were giving a hand to one of their friend their age (psychotherapist) to clear a field of some type of herb I don't know the name. anyway, it was very hot, middle of august in southern france is burning. and me, young, I couldn't keep up the job, and whewe were eating later, she told me she used to work in the field with her parents ALL DAY to gather the straws (or whatever) for the cows later during the winter. no matter how hot, dirty, sick, or tired, they had to do it whenever there was not summer storm; whenever they could. and she said she loved modern day comfort. she would never goack. but by comfort, she meant washing machine, heating, hot water, telephone, coffee machine, u know thing like this, or cars, planes...
she didn't mean the latest game cube or playstation or even computer.
so to go back to your point, I think there was million things that we have nowadays that are mightily useful and that would be missed by many. having said that, it's true that they managed to get by without it, and they tried to be ingenuous. if they lacked this tools they still had to get through the rest of the day without.

"it's important to continue to develop a view of the world that honors your own gifts, and your own place in the world."

I totally agree with this!

"If a scientist is too concerned with honoring and valuing the experience of an artist, or if a craftsman is too interested in promoting the vision of a thinker, or if a poet is too eager to find nobility in the work of a truckdriver, then we would not be able to play our own parts, and do what we were born to do."

well, here I disagree, I want to be a truckdriver and athough I don't have the talent of a poet, I don't mind doing this type of job; it doesn't play on my innerlife more than I let it be. it might be useful sometimes because the responsability of driving around 40 000 kg brings you back down on earth but nevertheless, I will still be a dreamer because this is me!

posted December 17, 2009 11:05 AM         

You're no saint yourself.
You've said things which may
be interpreted as misanthropic,
or unforgiving.

My view of the everyman
is far more complicated than
anyone here has implied.
And I resent it when folks
cherry-pick my comments and
paint me entirely one color
in order to have an easy target.
I've probably said more glowing,
respectful and honoring things
about the average working stiff
than just about anyone here,
in addition to my criticisms.
That comes with being an opinionated,
passionate, and expressive person,
who sees many sides of a story
(and has a Solar stellium on the MC;
the most public point in a chart).
Some folks just see one or two sides,
and think that must be the whole story.
They can't imagine how there could be more
without it contradicting what they've seen.
Well, there is always more.
Especially with me.

I admit, I've criticized
and generalized the average person,
without also indicating his good points,
and the exceptions to these rules,
in order to bring attention to another
type, whose contributions are
overwhelmingly underrated.

The way you seek to defend the everyman,
is not so different from the way i seek
to defend people swept into the margins.
If there is any contempt felt by anyone,
it is the contempt you, and most people,
feel for people who do not fit the mold.
You have all sorts of arguments to make
with the purpose of discrediting them,
but you never once take their perspective
into your deliberations.

You interpret it as an everyman,
and end by championing the everyman.
But its not a competition!

It was never meant to be an instance
of us against them.

Just because I praise one type of man,
who seems to me to be underappreciated,
and almost universally maligned,
and misunderstood, ---
doesnt mean I am devaluing the everyman,
or the ways in which the everyman shines.
Pointing those shining things out is not
a contradiction of anything I've said.
Nor is it something that needs to be done,
and has not already been done to death.
There are good things in both types,
and that is the point worth making.

No matter how hard any of us tries
to turn it into "us or them",
its really about "us and them".

And you can't find a "compromise"
by pointing out the existence of people
in the well-balanced grey area.

The whole point i was making
is that most people are in that grey area.

But that there are instances
of black and white.

There are marginal people.

And just because the average person
can find a balance, doesnt mean
that everybody can, or should.

There are people in the margins.

And they don't have to be like you.

They couldn't if they tried.

And that's not a fault.

Just as it is not a fault
in the everyman, that he doesnt
have the mind of an Einstein.

By the way,
what's your take on Einstein?

He was active in the cause of peace,
and he seems like a good man
who cared about people...

But he also has a number of quotes
attributed to him that seem
blatantly misanthropic.

And didnt he cheat on his wife?

Oh, well.
Nobody's perfect.

Schopenhauer was most of the
despicable things you said of him.
But he was a lot more than that.
He was a beautiful man.

Sometimes its hard to see
everything that is there.
Especially people.

The Schopenhauers
and the Joe Shmoes.

posted December 17, 2009 11:24 AM         

My view of the everyman
is far more complicated than
anyone here has implied.
And I resent it when folks
cherry-pick my comments and
paint me entirely one color
in order to have an easy target.
I've probably said more glowing,
respectful and honoring things
about the average working stiff
than just about anyone here,
in addition to my criticisms.

No cherry picking here Valus. These are your entries, yes?

The Ant and the Grasshopper

quote:

---

"All you to whom rough labor is dear... you put up with yourselves badly;
your diligence is flight, and the will to self-forgetfulness.
You have not enough capacity in you -- not even for idling."

~ Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra

---

quote:

---

"I'd be a laborer too, if I had no other purpose in the world, and wasnt busy being awed by this thing called "life",
feeling these overwhelming things called "feelings", and contemplating the myriad mysteries of our very existence.
In view of all of this, who has time or energy to "grunt and sweat under a weary life"?
I say, in perfect candor, "give me liberty", true liberty, "or give me death",
and I would ungrudgingly take my own life if the choice were put to me --
either to live an empty life of conformity and servitude, or to renounce that life altogether.
In the meantime, and while I am permitted this liberty, I will live as God intended;
following my own inner lights, and dancing along to the music of the highest spheres."

~ Valerian The Fool

---

quote:

---

"I never done nothin' with my life.
I never waged no war on no poor people.
I never shot no child in the face.
I never payed no taxes to no corrupt government.
I never competed for a place in the rat race.
I never improved nothin' that didnt need no improvin'.
I never played into no consumer culture trap.
I never took no sh!t from nobody for no f*ckin' paycheck.
I never whored myself like no soulless automaton drone."

~ The Free Radicals

---

If you have glowing posts re The Schopenhauers
and the Joe Shmoes of this universe, PLEASE show us so we have the opportunity to soften the blows you have delivered to the spirit of "everyman"

------------------
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted December 17, 2009 11:55 AM         

Thank you for making my point. We have made such incredible technological advances, that we no longer have to work all day in the fields, as that old woman used to do. But, instead of using these advancements to make our lives truly easier, we use them to create more gamecubes, etc. Now that we can make clothes easily, do we rest? Hell no! We make more clothes, and our wardrobes take up more space. We exhaust unimagninable resources in building machines to do work which we never would have done by hand -- why? Because it wasnt worth doing!! But now that we have machines, we can exhaust tons of energy and resources on things that we know would not be worth the human effort.

How absurd is it, that a person must do a thoroughly meaningless and harmful job, just for the sake of the pay? And that such a job must exist, so that every man may have a job to go to -- that is, a paycheck? Perhaps there is another way? Perhaps there is a way to do work that is honorable, not merely because it pays the rent, puts food on the table, and keeps the baby warm, but, because it actually serves a purpose in its own right! Rather than justifying the way things are simply because it's the way things are, lets try to imagine things that could be, and that are inherently justifiable! I think that's a worthy activity for the day.

I saw Michael Moore's latest documentary, about Capitalism. I thought the best and most interesting part was when he was talking about how Americans lived in the 50's and 60's. His father was the sole bread-winner of the family, but they lived in a nice house. His father worked the assembly line in a factory, but they had good money and were able to take long vacations several times a year. Now, a job like that can hardly support an individual, let alone his family. Could it be that the system is out of control? Could it be that labor is being exploited for things we don't need, and people are being forced to take a lower wage, so that somebody somewhere can make a bigger buck? With the technology we have today, we could produce everything we need within reason, and each person would probably have to work the equivalent of ten days a year, or less. It could be like jury duty. Instead, the average worker's hours are lengthened, not diminished, while the pay goes down, not up. Why? So that the wealthy may get wealthier. So that a new brand of cereal we don't need can make somebody rich. Why? Because it has yellow clovers, or purple wheelies or something. Nobody likes the way things are. We all look for people to blame. But we should be looking at the folks on top. And instead of always arguing that it is such a noble thing to be a working stiff, lets start to ask ourselves if that self-satisfaction (and self-congratulation on a job well done) isn't actually inhibiting us from reflecting on the ultimate pointlessness and wastefulness of our work.

If somebody steps on your child's neck, and tells you that, if you want him to lift his boot, you need to carry stones from one end of a courtyard and back again, all day long. What do you do? Do you endeavor to find meaning in your work? It is, after all, going to get that boot off your child's neck, and that is a pretty important thing, right? But then he is just going to step on her neck again tomorrow. So now what? You go to work every day, lugging those stones, back and forth, back and forth. It's exhausting. But at the end of every day, her neck is free from that oppressive weight, and you embrace each other. You live for those brief moments of free embrace. But then somebody comes over and tells you there is a better way. He tells you that you are wasting your energy, and your life. He tells you, the only way to get that boot off and keep it off is to put men like that out of business. Perhaps you tell him that, if he really wants to help, he will pick up a stone and start lugging it across the courtyard, lol. Tell him he's a dreamer, who needs to get with "the program", and start living in the "real world". And you lug your stone, and hold onto it for dear life.

I've never seen your poetry or art
or intellectual contributions, pire,
but I'd imagine you're a fairly
well-balanced individual.

posted December 17, 2009 12:07 PM         

quote:

---

(the majority of people
are disposed in this way,
and in no hurry to change)

---

Personally Valus, I think you opened yourself up to a world of criticism when you said the above, in your response to Juni.

What you didn't realise was that people want to change and can't. I just thought that was, at best, a hell of a naive thing to say, and supercilious/patronising/superior. It was words over experience again and so I think you brought this one on yourself. Sorry.

posted December 17, 2009 12:14 PM         

do you do this consciously or unconsciously? and do you mean to keep people's interest in you this way only?

don't you have faith in people love for you, not just your ideas?

posted December 17, 2009 12:22 PM         

valus:

"I've never seen your poetry or art
or intellectual contributions, pire"

posted December 17, 2009 12:36 PM         

If you think your time and energy is best used by trying to determine my motives, and to illuminate them for us all, then, please, don't let me put a wrench in your works. We all know how important that work is. Nobody wants to be fooled into considering what a thread is saying, and what its merits may be, when there are unresolved issues from the past that cry out for our attention. Why listen to what a person is saying NOW, when you can quote (out of context) something they wrote in anger who-knows-when? Incidentally, juni, are you aware that you are not contradicting me? That I admitted to doing that, and all you did was quote me doing that -- and throw it in my face, after I confessed to it, and did not deny it? Do I need to explain to you how it is possible to see those things, and still to see others? And how it is possible to choose a path that honors your gifts, without devaluing every other path? And do I need to go through those quotes one by one, and make sure that you can see what they are saying, and what they are not saying? How many assumptions and generalizations do you think are being made, that are not in fact being made? How many comments are addressed to a certain listener or group of listeners, and not to every single worker, or everyman, you can think of? I can spot about a dozen things right now that are not being said but which you probably assumed were being said. And in response to what actually was said, I don't think I should apologize for my personal tastes, or for choosing a path that honors my own gifts. I think there is room for all of us. Plenty of people, yourself included, have unflattering things to say about entire classes of people who I think deserve more understanding. But since you are defending a popular view, hardly anybody would see your comments as judgmental. They would see them as fair and just. But they would be pure criticisms, and I doubt they would include the praise, understanding, and sympathy which my views contain, and have expressed. For one thing, you believe in free will. And not just free will, but absolute free will, if I'm not mistaken. So, for you, criticism can't be distinguished from blame. Whereas, for me, the element of blame never really enters into it. You lump all people like me together, and you think I lump all people like you together when i say "everyman". But I've spoken about a wide variety of defects belonging to a generalized class; -- and I'm saying that not all of them exhibit all of these, but most exhibit at least one or two. Also that, while I criticize one side of them, it doesnt contradict my praise for their good qualities, nor does it reflect a condemnation or contempt. Once in a while, its emotional and defensive, -- and anyone with any insight into me and my situation would only find that perfectly understandable. But, for the most part, it is not at all adversarial in the way you seem to think, and my views are far more nuanced than you seem to allow. But the very fact that I confront the issue at all seems to imply guilt in your eyes. The very fact that I am willing to criticize the common man, or to admit that he has faults, and to discuss those faults, is something you see as meanspirited or arrogant. Why? Don't you see me admiting my own faults regularly? Oh, but you look upon that as escapism, right? You think I call it a fault, just so I dont have to take responsibility for it and change it, right? Why not see the opposite? Am I relieving the everyman of responsibility, when I credit him with certain faults? Perhaps I am. For me, will does not play as big a part. I dont know who has the will to change, or what they have the will to change, and what is stamped upon them by nature, and beyond their control. I dont go that far. That "deep". I don't judge. Not in the way you think I do. I just observe, and say what I see. And I see a lot of things, good and bad. Ask T if she has heard me praise things like hard work, perseverance, orderliness, and so on. I praise these things, and admit my lack, or relative lack, of them. In the same way, I praise qualities which I do possess, and admit the everyman's lack, or relative lack, of them. This is not scandalous. It may seem that way to you, but not to me. We have faults. We have gifts. Big deal. Why not talk freely about it? And if a man is gifted in intelligence, isn't it natural for him to value intelligence? And if he admits to being smarter than most people, and if he is proud of this, -- so what? If intelligence is not the most, or the only, important thing, then this person has not claimed superiority. If a person is proud of being an individualist, so what? Is individualism the only thing? Of course not. But if he values it, or wants to value it, let him. What is it to us? We have our own gifts to set priority on. Tell me, juni, do you see what I'm saying at all?