posted December 17, 2009 12:51 PM         

"The majority of people are disposed in this way (i.e. their gifts extend in more worldly directions) and are in no hurry to change." The majority of people are gifted in worldy matters, disposed in that direction, in no hurry to change. Gifted, at least, compared to myself, lol. They are relatively gifted, and disposed in that direction. Are they in a hurry to change? Would they stop performing manual labor, or taking up worldy concerns, if given the choice? I dont think they would. Not all at once, and not entirely. Most people like to work, and it makes them happy to be employed in some useful labor. If they had idle time, they wouldn't know what to do with the bulk of it. They'd go crazy inside their own heads. Or they'd watch daytime television. After a while, they'd be banging on the factory doors, to be let back inside. Back inside, where things are simple, ordered, planned. Where life is mapped out and people tell you what's important and you believe them and do as you're told. I think we can all relate to that. And I think most people want some element of that in their lives. And that's not a bad thing. If we don't misuse it, it can be a very, very good thing.

posted December 17, 2009 12:53 PM         

A movement to radically change this, i.e. the way this world has been building it's current value system and lifestyle will undoubtedly be met with vast criticism, not of you directly, V, but of the idea that we should have to change. It's not like everyone woke up yesterday and said "you know, I don't think I can live without toilet paper with soft cushions", this is a learned "necessity" and took time to become ingrained. Much will any idea to change the current culture take time.

I don't know if you have noticed, but many companies are implementing practices that are more "green" and have been for a few years now. Ways of saving energy and resources, while still providing jobs and ways for people to earn a living are becoming more relevant each day. Cars are being designed to save fuel, save costs and reduce emissions. Old cars are being recycled to create new items that are better for our environment and ultimate well being. Jobs exist in these industries as well, jobs that maybe to some are "grunt work", but are actually making a difference, however small one may think they are.

Even this very second, the health care system in this country is being examined, re-examined and attempts to change this for the better of the people are being made. This is also causing quite a stink from many millions of americans who are used to things they way they are and are being scared away from this "change" by those who would like to keep things from improving for everyone for the sake of the few.

These implementations of change for the better are in effect, and will take time to see into fruition, as I suppose all things that are worth the wait do.

I don't think anyone will really argue that you are WRONG that the way life has molded us into "haves and have-nots" and that many jobs to create "crap" don't serve much of a "spiritual" purpose, that is not what you are being called on. IMHO, it's the way in which you go about your posts which seem lofty and condescending, thus pulling attention away from your original point and wasting precious energy winding people up to show you what you are seeming to fail to understand. And because of your own personal story, you can see how others (because let's face it, most of america/the world are in the "have not" category, busting our humps to put food on the table, therefore you are talking about us in your rants)would be offended and put off to look beyond the apparent hypocricy of what you are saying and discuss the actual topic.

posted December 17, 2009 01:29 PM         

Doesn't it seem like most people are more interested in making money than in working less? If given the choice, more money or less hours, they'll keep working long hours and just buy more stuff, get a better car, a bigger house, or have another kid to support. And then they call that the REAL WORLD. Was it the real world before you had the kid? Did it become more real, when you had the kid? How about the house, the collection of DVD's, the new couch, the new car, the new kitchen, the new wardrobe, HDTV, cable, wood floors, the silverware, the china, the chachkies, the prime rib, another kid.... When does it become REAL?

You brought up some good points, and i mostly agree with you. Green practices are good, even in small ways. And revolutionary ideas do take time. The bigger they are, the further they are from manifestation. The biggest things are still on a level of pure consciousness. And that is where the real work is taking place. Changing consciousness. Preparing the ground for ideas to take root. Until they've been cultivated in people's minds, we can't even think of rooting them in the culture. People need to stop defending the systems (including the value systems) which they claim to be sick and tired of. That's a good place to start.

posted December 17, 2009 01:42 PM         

Just my two pennies on the matter.

posted December 17, 2009 02:17 PM         

quote:

---

Doesn't it seem like most people are more interested in making money than in working less? If given the choice, more money or less hours, they'll keep working long hours and just buy more stuff, get a better car, a bigger house, or have another kid to support. And then they call that the REAL WORLD. Was it the real world before you had the kid? Did it become more real, when you had the kid? How about the house, the collection of DVD's, the new couch, the new car, the new kitchen, the new wardrobe, HDTV, cable, wood floors, the silverware, the china, the chachkies, the prime rib, another kid.... When does it become REAL?

---

In my experience - yes! Most of the people around me are solely interested in making more money and buying bigger and better things. I blame this on the consumerist culture that is so widely advertised and accepted here. People don't think twice before hmmm... getting an iPod for example... or wanting the best new phone.
I am buying presents this year off of a wish list and it disturbs me to see brand names on that list. They don't want just any clothes. They want something very specific and expensive. Why? Why is it OK to want these things? Why is it OK to place more value on popular and thus more expensive stuff? (This stuff is not of higher quality, produced with greener energy or superior in any ethical or practical way)
Because that's what the people in the example above are taught to believe will feed their hungry souls. They try to make life more real by consuming more and some actually believe that it's working.

I honestly believe that love is the answer here. If people loved each other and themselves more, if the shared their lives more - naked, who they truly are and not insulate themselves with excess the world would be a better place.

posted December 17, 2009 02:29 PM         

Valus; Your words about the liquor store man really concerned me. As you know I've spent the bigger part of my life bartending. It was not something I chose, but fell into. I had a natural knack for it, and have made quite a haul in these past 20 years (none left of course) but, I felt at times, total dread at the prospect of going to my job. In a way, the light flirting and tell-me-your-troubles aspect made me begin to feel like I was a ***** of sorts, I was selling alcohol, yes, but I was also selling me. This troubled me greatly.
But in disagreement of what you said, no, I did not feel guilt about serving men who had families to support. I cannot be everyones moral compass, that is not my job.

The history of taverns is a rich one and worth researching, they used to be a sort of "town hall" with children present and everything. Families took their meals there, and some who had no heat, basked by the warm fires of the pub.

Somewhere along the line things have gotten twisted. But a drunk will drink, if not at my bar, then the next one, or at home. How in the world can I be responsible for that?

I had to work. I had to feed my children. I had no choice.
I took (and still do sometimes) these so called useless jobs to get a relief from the bars. I remember a cashier job I had, where obviously we had too many cashiers and not enough customers. During the time we had no customers in line, we were not allowed to leave our stations, but we had to "look busy" according to the boss. How many times can you dust lifesavers and straighten magazines? I thought I would go insane.

There are salt of the Earth people who get their greatest joy from a hard days work. They feel accomplished and proud. We need them.
There are people who spend hours, days, and months trying to change one word in a poem (guilty) and please, someone, need us too???

And there are people like T, who gets the best of both worlds, to create and get paid for it. That is truly a blessing, and something for all to strive for, however we can.

posted December 17, 2009 02:36 PM         

quote:

---

There are people who spend hours, days, and months trying to change one word in a poem (guilty) and please, someone, need us too???

---

I need you. My job is soulless. My fault for getting to where I am but I really need YOU.

posted December 17, 2009 02:53 PM         

I think it's presumptious to say that most people just want more money for more stuff. Maybe I'm an idealist and see the world in rosy colored glasses, but I think most people, at their cores, would prefer to be clothed, fed and loved over having any bunch of "crap" out there. Yin is totally right, it's about love. I think when you love who you are, and those around you, why on earth would you need the distraction of an XBox or any number of things to keep your hours entertaining? This has been personally said to me by my baby's father. His life has changed immensely since she was born, namely, he does not fill his existance with much more than work, eating, sleeping, and spending time with us. I think it's the perfect existance, especially for the two of us that were kinda just filling up time until somethign good came along, but that's my zen and others are entitled to theirs.

For some reason, I am reminded of a scene from one of my favorite movies, History of the World Part 1:

quote:

---

Dole Office Clerk: Occupation?
Comicus: Stand-up philosopher.
Dole Office Clerk: What?
Comicus: Stand-up philosopher. I coalesce the vapors of human experience into a viable and meaningful comprehension.
Dole Office Clerk: Oh, a *bullsh!t* artist!
Comicus: *Grumble*...
Dole Office Clerk: Did you bullsh!t last week?
Comicus: No.
Dole Office Clerk: Did you *try* to bullsh!t last week?
Comicus: Yes!

---

posted December 17, 2009 03:39 PM         

quote:

---

And there are people like T, who gets the best of both worlds, to create and get paid for it. That is truly a blessing, and something for all to strive for, however we can.

---

Gypsee, I just wanted to tell you that, while yes, that might seem nice (and indeed it is!) and easy (what is going on with me now - which it is not) I have payed my dues big time and it has taken alot of time and energy and wishing and praying and working my butt off and everything to get to this place and have the opportunity I have today. I have only just begun this new chapter and have a long road ahead of me. One I hope I have success with and plan on putting my all into.

And while I begin on this new journey/artistic medium, being able to learn a new trade in the field of art and most definately have the potential to earn better money than I would sitting around trying to sell paintings, I realize that I have a long way to go and a lot of hard work ahead of me. Trust me, I make no money yet and most weeks wonder how I will scrape up enough money to eat and put gas in my car to get to my apprenticeship. I always come up with something, usually just barely enough, but I am used to living like this and am working VERY hard to change it and get myself into a better position. I can starve for awhile knowing I'm working on getting to a better place and going to be able to finally make a living doing something i love. Things have not been easy in my life.

If you only knew how hard it's been before this. The only thing I've got going for me now, is that I finally see a light at the end of the tunnel - for once!! and a way to get out of hard times if i am prepared to work for it. We will see how it goes and i'm going to do my best. And I know it's going to take a lot of work and dedication on my part. I am prepared and very thankful for it.

I'm not "getting the best of both worlds" - believe me, i am, and have been, working damn hard for it. And wont be seeing any kind return for awhile. I have a big mountain ahead of me with this new endeavor. And by the same token, because it's been so hard, I can now be truly greatful and much of the hard work (artistry wise) has paid off.

posted December 17, 2009 03:46 PM         

Ghani & wheels xoxo

posted December 17, 2009 03:58 PM         

quote:

---

Work is bad for the soul, unless it is something that can reward the soul.

---

posted December 17, 2009 04:03 PM         

Thanks, listenstotrees.
Yin and Gypsee, thank you.
I think you hear me.

We all agree that sh-t is f---ed up,
but some of us can cope with it,
or exploit it, better than others.

It would be nice if people like T
didn't have to work so hard for their art,
but, then again, this way they
get to share a common vision.

posted December 17, 2009 06:21 PM         

You're no saint yourself.
You've said things which may
be interpreted as misanthropic,
or unforgiving.

You bet I'm no saint. Far from it. I've got more nastiness bubbling under the surface than even I care to acknowledge. And that's saying some. I've posted things which I knew very well would hurt you for no other reason than it was easy and you were frustrating the hell out of me or, even worse, it vaguely amused me. Guilty as charged, valus. But I have never claimed the status of Teacher or Prophet. Knowing where and what you are is half the battle and the surest way to prevent someone from accomplishing something is to convince them they've already accomplished it.

My view of the everyman
is far more complicated than
anyone here has implied.
And I resent it when folks
cherry-pick my comments and
paint me entirely one color
in order to have an easy target.
I've probably said more glowing,
respectful and honoring things
about the average working stiff
than just about anyone here,
in addition to my criticisms.
That comes with being an opinionated,
passionate, and expressive person,
who sees many sides of a story
(and has a Solar stellium on the MC;
the most public point in a chart).
Some folks just see one or two sides,
and think that must be the whole story.
They can't imagine how there could be more
without it contradicting what they've seen.
Well, there is always more.
Especially with me.

hmmm Should I give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that by speaking in astrology code you're attempting to better describe yourself rather than just defend yourself? Unfortunatly, as you know, I don't speak the code. So, I can't say "well, I have that too so na na na" or "no, you're wrong it doesn't mean that at all". Look, here ya go .... damn damn damn!. Have at it. I'm sure there's lots in my chart to confirm my stupidity/bitchiness/close-minded world view.

I admit, I've criticized
and generalized the average person,
without also indicating his good points,
and the exceptions to these rules,
in order to bring attention to another
type, whose contributions are
overwhelmingly underrated.

That's a damn stupid way to bring attention to something. You're a smart guy. Maybe time to try another strategy? Or better yet, explore your deeper motivations for the criticism.

posted December 17, 2009 06:28 PM         

The way you seek to defend the everyman,
is not so different from the way i seek
to defend people swept into the margins.
If there is any contempt felt by anyone,
it is the contempt you, and most people,
feel for people who do not fit the mold.
You have all sorts of arguments to make
with the purpose of discrediting them,
but you never once take their perspective
into your deliberations.

What have I ever said to give you this impression? I know those people in the margins. I've been there. Also, I've lived exactly like you have. Years ago, I had a nervous breakdown and, almost completely unable to function, I moved back in with my parents and lived off nothing but their generosity. I know exactly what that does to your self esteem. So, no, I have no hatred in my heart for "people in the margins". None. I'd just as soon spend the day daydreaming, contemplating the mysteries of the universe or maybe reading a book. It's the salt of the earth types I have learned to appreciate.

Just because I praise one type of man,
who seems to me to be underappreciated,
and almost universally maligned,
and misunderstood, ---
doesnt mean I am devaluing the everyman,
or the ways in which the everyman shines.
Pointing those shining things out is not
a contradiction of anything I've said.
Nor is it something that needs to be done,
and has not already been done to death.
There are good things in both types,
and that is the point worth making.

Valus, if this is how you truly feel, your words speak otherwise. A half dozen chest thumping threads you've started to belittle the "worker ant". Immediately following the rant we hear, "but that's not what I meant. I really like the worker ants. I was just defending the dreamers". Something's amiss.

Einstein? Schopenhaur? meh. Don't confuse great scientist, a great artist, a great philosopher with a spiritual teacher.

Finally ... I'd be surprised if anyone here would push you into flipping burgers at McDonald's. Maybe some of them are wondering why you're not toiling away at Yale or Harvard, I don't know. But 'job' maybe isn't the root issue. 'Work' is the key. 'Work' is noble. Your mental, emotional and spiritual heath depend on it. At the moment I don't have a job. I haven't had one in two years. I gave it up to raise a one year old. I take it very seriously and I absolutely consider it work. So, where's that book of yours? Writer's write ... right? How many hours did you spend composing a volume of poetry today? Personally, I think your poetry far outshines you philosophical meanderings. I think that valerian bullshiits and rationalizes, but your poetry has a way of circumventing your intellect and defense mechanisms and, when you hit the mark, you are astonishingly good. Why haven't you been published yet? Quite jerking off on LindaLand and get busy, for Christ's sake.

posted December 18, 2009 02:01 AM         

Oh. Please do not misunderstand me! I have no doubt of your struggles and continued struggles. I am only happy for you that at your age, you can really see the light at the end of the tunnel and make your art, and your job a place of joy for yourself. I have NO DOUBT that you have earned every bit of what you have (or will no doubtably have soon) and I am just very happy for you.

posted December 18, 2009 08:36 AM         

It's funny how our language allows us to say certain things that make no sense. For instance, "the world" has come to be associated with "the world of commerce"; now it's possible to imply that a person who's not actively engaged in commerce is not active in the world, -- and hardly anybody bats an eyelash. I wonder if most people can still recognize that there is, in fact, a very real distinction between these two "worlds".

My own experience has included a number of "outer planetary types", who are not especially active in the world of commerce, but who are intimately involved with the world and its most profound questions. I find these are the people who tend to put themselves out there, when it comes to actively bucking conventions, competing for the acceptance of their personal visions, and confronting deeper questions and realities. So many people can disappear inside some public role, but when they dont have that role to hide behind, they can't even look you in the eye. The instant you raise a topic of any depth or importance, you can see their eyes glazing over as they start to squirm, make jokes, and look for a way out. It's strange, isn't it? On the other hand, some of the people you'd think are avoiding difficult situations may be the very ones you see every day putting themselves on the line, being more vulnerable than anyone you can think of, wrestling simultaneously with their own souls and the souls of others, and sharing ideas which, they know, are bound to be met with indignation, judgement, and derision.

Many of the people who I admire for their willingness to confront the world of commerce, oddly enough, cannot bring themselves to buck conventions, no matter how strongly they disagree, or to share their opinions on a public forum, where they know they'll encounter meanspirited opposition. For them, just being themselves on the forum is more intimidating than playing a prescribed role in the workplace. Some of them write to me in private and tell me how much they understand, agree with, identify with, and/or support me, and how they would like to post it, but they don't want to expose themselves to character assaults. It's a lonely life, lol. How many times have I been told I was brave, just to share my perspective on-line, and compete for it in open debate, the way I do? I don't really see it that way, though I can understand how it seems that way to them.

I think we're all brave in different ways. If something means a lot to me, I'll suffer for it. Freedom means a lot to me. Truth means a lot to me. Being spontaneous and honest means a lot to me. Conversely, being subordinate to somebody else, for the sake of something I don't feel passsionate about, doesnt appeal to me. Does it scare me? A little. Mainly because I see no point in it; and nothing scares me more than suffering without a purpose. I think I accomplish more good in the world, and am much happier, working alone. I'm very grateful that I've managed (partly by being stubborn) to find a niche in the world where I can just be myself. I can't think of anything I'd rather be.

posted December 18, 2009 09:47 AM         

If that were important to me,
I'd easily move in that direction.

The book is developing organically
and will be published in time.

"It is done quickly enough
if it is done well." ~Latin Proverb

I happen to think the
aphorisms and fragments
outshine all but the best
of my poetry (and there's
not very much of that).

Also, that I am a teacher
(even if I'm no Buddha or Rumi).

I agree with the psychic who told me:
"You need to honor your teacher-self."

I disagree with you.

But you're welcome to your view.

If you have any more opinions
about me and my personal life,
which you're looking to share,
please, be my guest.

That's what we're here for.

I guess.

posted December 18, 2009 09:48 AM         

To here:

posted December 18, 2009 09:50 AM         

I love you "art" by the way.