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Author
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Topic: If the Flag of the United States Offends You
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fatinkerbell
Knowflake Posts: 10
From: South Korea
Registered: May 2009
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posted June 02, 2009 03:29 AM
 
"A Caucasian skeleton was found dating " ... That is very strange. You would think it didn't have any body to go out with.------------------
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter. IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 356
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 02, 2009 09:28 AM
"A Caucasian skeleton was found dating " ... That is very strange. You would think it didn't have any body to go out with." A Caucasian skeleton was found dating from about 9300 years ago...which predates any Native American settlements in what is now the United States." IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 356
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 02, 2009 09:28 AM
"A Caucasian skeleton was found dating " ... That is very strange. You would think it didn't have any body to go out with." A Caucasian skeleton was found dating from about 9300 years ago...which predates any Native American settlements in what is now the United States." IP: Logged |
wheels of cheese
Knowflake Posts: 190
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted June 02, 2009 10:23 AM
quote:
Americans are generally pretty laid back. I don't know anyone who would be offended if someone from France put up a French flag on Bastille Day or if a person from Mexico put up a Mexican flag on Cinco de Mayo...provided they didn't fly that flag above the US flag if there was one present.
Yeah, that's real laid back Jwhop. What other conditions would you put on the stupid piece of cloth, Laid Back Man? LMAO Flags. What a load of crap. Ban the lot of them. Ritualistic tribal nonsense. It's a piece of cloth, symbolising nothing but nationalistic sentiments and a symbol of narrowmindedness, often abused. Grow up.  Glaucus
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wheels of cheese
Knowflake Posts: 190
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted June 02, 2009 10:25 AM
Where's the info about the Caucasian skeleton? Interesting, and as someone who is interested in archaeology, can I just say that it's prone to "plants". I'd like to see the source. Is it from The Journal of Caucasian Flag Loving Money Grubbing Crisschun Conservative Archaeologists Who'd Really Just Like to Spray Some Urine Around the Boundary of America to Keep the Darkies Out? Or am I just being cynical here, what?
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jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 356
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 02, 2009 10:57 AM
You're just being cynical here Wheels and as your countrymen..and women would say..Wot?This should be enough to get you started down the road to discovering Kennwwick Man.
K E N N E W I C K M A N
By James C. Chatters
Encounter with an Ancestor The man lacks definitive characteristics of the classic mongoloid stock to which modern Native Americans belong. The skull is dolichocranic (cranial index 73.8) rather than brachycranic, the face narrow and prognathous rather than broad and flat. Cheek bones recede slightly and lack an inferior zygomatic projection; the lower rim of the orbit is even with the upper. Other features are a long, broad nose that projects markedly from the face and high, round orbits. The mandible is v-shaped,with a pronounced, deep chin. Many of these characteristics are definitive of modern-day caucasoid peoples, while others, such as the orbits are typical of neither race. Dental characteristics fit Turner's (1983) Sundadont pattern, indicating possible relationship to south Asian peoples.
http://www.mnh.si.edu/arctic/html/kennewick_man.html Caucasoid Life in North America Caucasoid traits in the Kennewick Man -- with his long narrow face, slight overbite, prominent chin, and an ancient spear point in his hip (possibly from an enemy tribe), he looked much like Patrick Stewart, the Captain John Luke Picard of the Television series 'Star Trek'10 -- and other recent finds (revealed throughout the rest my research) challenge the conventional view that the first settlers of the Americas were Asian predecessors of Indians (the Beringian Bridge theory). The Fork Rock Cave in Oregon has been in the middle of ongoing new discoveries. The cave itself is small -- only thirty-five feet wide and sixty-five feet long. It was here in 1938 that about seventy pairs of sandals made of sagebrush were discovered by Luther S. Cressman.11 Radio-carbon dating technology dated the sandals at nine thousand years old (fortunately, the sandals were preserved until radio-carbon dating was invented). Charcoal was also found with a radio-carbon date indicating it was thirteen thousand two-hundred years old.12 The sagebrush sandals were intricately woven, and the other items found in the cave included projectile points, scrapers, drills, a wooden trigger for a trap, small pieces of basketry and awls to make leather (or tailored clothing for kinfolk of the Kennewick man), all of which indicated skilled workers.13 These differ vastly from Indian artifacts both in ancient North America and in modern Indian findings. Douglas Owsley, Division Head of Physical Anthropology at the National Museum of Natural History (Smithsonian Institution) in Washington D.C., has examined all of the seven well-preserved skeletons found in North America and found that they all have Caucasoid features in common. These seven different skeletons with Caucasoid features were found at seven different sites and at different periods of time. The Kennewick man, one of the seven, has an ancient Indian spearhead wound in his hip.14 All found came from the period near the end of the later glacial era, during which the Clovis people disappeared - a fact which strengthens the argument that these Caucasoid skeletons were related to the Clovis people.
http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theedrich/hive/Kennewic.htm
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wheels of cheese
Knowflake Posts: 190
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted June 02, 2009 11:18 AM
quote:
You're just being cynical here Wheels and as your countrymen..and women would say..Wot?
Thass mah job, bebeh... Ok, thanks for the link. Interesting. But at the end of the day here Jwhop, what are we saying? One long-boned skull trumps the entire Native American culture? It's like a ******* contest. I hate this kind of hierarchy and tenure. It's rubbish and is meaningless. IP: Logged |
wheels of cheese
Knowflake Posts: 190
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted June 02, 2009 11:26 AM
Did they find a flag with the sandals?  IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 356
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 02, 2009 12:03 PM
What are you trying to do here wheels, trump the scientific community with mere gossip and speculation?Well, of course they found a flag with those sandals. An American flag with one star. IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 625
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 02, 2009 12:08 PM
"Many of these characteristics are definitive of modern-day caucasoid peoples, while others, such as the orbits are typical of neither race. Dental characteristics fit Turner's (1983) Sundadont pattern, indicating possible relationship to south Asian peoples"seems it was neither caucasian NOR asian, or maybe a bit of both. not really a case for caucasians here before the "native americans". in fact they don't yet know what it was. IP: Logged |
MyVirgoMask
Knowflake Posts: 656
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted June 02, 2009 02:53 PM
Deleted rant.IP: Logged |
MyVirgoMask
Knowflake Posts: 656
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted June 02, 2009 03:00 PM
IMO, the article is so weird anyway, especially the last line: "I find it very frightening because if I can't display my flag, what other freedoms will I lose before all is said and done," McLucas asked." It sounds like she just doesn't like her boss. That's all I'm getting here.
But it's getting twisted to mean something else. IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 356
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 02, 2009 03:46 PM
What you seem to be overlooking is that those characteristics which are not identifiably Caucasoid are referenced as South Asian.Native Americans are not of south Asian ancestry but rather North Asian...Mongolian. Nevertheless, Kennewick Man and the others facial bone structure points directly to European ancestry..Caucasoid and Kennewick Man is dated to about 9300 years ago...before there were native American settlements in what is now the US. It is suggested Kennewick Man was a member of the Clovis people who disappeared into the mists of history...except for some ancient artifacts. The question I asked was...how far back in history do you want to go to discover who the real Native Americans actually were?
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fatinkerbell
Knowflake Posts: 10
From: South Korea
Registered: May 2009
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posted June 02, 2009 04:52 PM
Well the one thing we might be able to agree on is that we are all native earthlings. I'd like to share a couple of anecdotes if y'all don't mind ... So I'm from South Africa, which is like racial tolerance lab 101, and if I had a penny for every time someone got offended by, and piped up about, the old flag, the new flag, the old old flags, etc. etc. I'd be severely rich. I can see the points of view of both the persons who got offended by the American flag and those who were offended by people taking offense. I have no doubt that the person who brought the flag to work for memorial day was acting in good faith and didn't mean the gesture as a provocation. However, I'm also sure that the offense some people feel over the cultural symbols of those they perceive as having hurt them, whether those people did actually hurt them or not, is also real. The University I attended in South Africa was renowned for being the birth-place of apartheid, as all the architects of apartheid studies there and got their ideology from its intellectual atmosphere. The building I spent most of my time in, the humanities building, was named after J.B. Vorster, who was at one time head of the secret police force responsible for torturing and killing dissidents, including Steve Biko. While I was there my good friend, whom I shared an office with, campaigned tirelessly to have the name removed and changed to something culturally neutral, because she was offended by the name. When she was just a young child, her family were routinely harrassed for being Jewish and part of the anti-apartheid movement. Well, would you want to live in a building named after your family's torturer?
The extent to which people were offended by the American flag in the case JWHOP mentioned is unknown. For my part I think JWHOP is right to a certain extent, although I wouldn't have put it quite as angrily as he did: 5f you are offended by something you can remove yourself from the situation. I live and work in Korea and at official functions I salute the Korean flag and I do it sincerely because this is the country that took me in and gave me a home and allows me to earn a living. Both parties in "Flag-gate" story are guilty, it seems to me, of pettiness and intolerance. They could both have looked the other way: the complainant could have averted eyes, so to speak, and just have put up with a sight that surely is all over and everywhere in the USA, and the one who put up the flag could have just let this one thing go without getting paranoid about all freedoms. It just shows you that concepts like freedom are complex, because the safeguarding of one person or group's freedoms leads to the curtailing of another person or groups' freedom. I have personally in the past offended others, like when I was in school and played gospel music and Christian radio that offended my boarding school room-mates ... At the time I was young and didn't imagine anyone could be offended by "Radio Pulpit". Now I'm older and `i know better. I in turn am deeply offended by the fact that my country now has a president who forced himself on a woman, Jacob Zuma, because I am a woman and I have in the past had sex forced onto me, and I can't even look at Jacob Zuma's face. I mean, I find his face offensive, if you know what I mean! But I have to live with it because he is South Africa's president and I am proud of what South Africa has accomplished. If I were a judge (I wish, lol : ) I would find for JWHOP though, because it is true that people are not forced to live in the USA and that if they choose to stay put they should allow other to express a love for their country and not play the "poor me I'm from Africa" card at the slightest provocation. ------------------
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter. IP: Logged |
wheels of cheese
Knowflake Posts: 190
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted June 03, 2009 05:13 AM
quote:
What are you trying to do here wheels, trump the scientific community with mere gossip and speculation?
Well, Whops my friend, as a highly qualified archaeologist (from the best archaeology school in Europe, which as we know trumps the US love sorry to blow my own trumpet there chicken but if you think I'm some blonde blue eyed eejit yer wrong - I see you have an existing problem with this sort of person ) I am the scientific community dollface. And I have absolutely no time for this pap archaeology that tells me they can see that a skull looks like Jean Luc Frigging Picard. That, and I can tell you in all sincerity, with no "gossip" or "speculation", is bollocks.
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jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 356
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 03, 2009 09:39 AM
 Well Ducky, the resemblance is striking don't you think? Do you believe in reincarnation? So, I didn't suggest more than setting your feet on the path on enlightenment. The rest is up to you. But how is it possible those at "the best archeology school in Europe" never heard of Kennewick Man? ? ? ?  Which sort of person do you believe I have a problem with; blond, blue eyed eejits..or those who are not? ? ? For the record, I married a blue eyed blond and raised 3 blue eyed blonds...all of whom are certifiable large brained primates of the Homo sapiens sapiens genus..as opposed to those who are not. 
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VenusDeLionesse
Knowflake Posts: 36
From: mumbai,india
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 03, 2009 11:04 AM
I am not an american - but this is a an issue thats simplistic to the point of laughing.What kind of a dumb, hypersensitive leech would say that the mere sight of the flag of the nation that sustains his every single need is so offensive to him that he doesnt even have the respite of looking away. duuuhhhh.  Is it that intelligent to figure that if you dont like the sight of something just look at something else. ?? what do such idiots think when they whine like 3 yr old running to mom saying..." i dont like what i can see, so i wont change my line of sight - you change what i am seeing " Stupid pricks. I dont particularly buy the excesssive flag orgy that we have here in my country around independence day either . It gets to the point that you cant see much else - but who is a baby enough to say its unbearable ??? IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 625
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 03, 2009 11:29 AM
very good point venus. which goes equally either way. why is this a big deal? why is the fact that someone finds the flag garrish an insult and a threat to our freedom? perhaps both sides were being hypersenstive and this is really a non-issue.IP: Logged |
Glaucus
Knowflake Posts: 373
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 03, 2009 04:57 PM
I agree with katatonic.
Raymond
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jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 356
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 03, 2009 06:46 PM
Who says the US flag is garish?Who says this level of disrespect for one of the great symbols of America is a threat? You seem to be the one attempting to make those point but those points won't fly. This woman harbors a deep resentment for the United States. The flag is just an excuse for her to show her basic disrespect. Yet, here she is in the viper's pit of the USA biatching and moaning while taking advantage of whatever she can get from America. Away with her and all like her. We have no need to suffer foreign born fools on American soil looking for any excuse to express how offended they are by the United States. IP: Logged |
MyVirgoMask
Knowflake Posts: 656
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted June 03, 2009 11:02 PM
Oh JWhop, come on  I hardly think the woman 'hates' the US because she didn't want the flag shoved in her face. I don't care if it's made of silk and lollipops, I still personally wouldn't want any piece of cloth shoved in my face.
IMO, I don't really see flags as anything more than symbols. It's only people who are weak enough to attach power to an inanimate object, and be so thoroughly insulted so that the object rules THEM and their emotion. But it's still only a piece of cloth. We can respect what it represents, sure. But just because we don't want to stare at it longingly doesn't mean we hate the country it represents. We don't hear the other side and what the woman has to say, all we get is this one in the article whining about freedom. You'd think someone chained her to a chair and didn't allow her to have lunch. Now, maybe the other woman DID hate the flag. But we don't know. The other person didn't get a voice in the matter. So all we have here is just wild speculation. I don't mind flags but I really wouldn't want someone decorating my house with the flag. However, I will say it was Memorial Day or thereabouts, so the other woman should've just shut her trap. IP: Logged |
Quinnie
Knowflake Posts: 73
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 03, 2009 11:25 PM
"What are you trying to do here wheels, trump the scientific community with mere gossip and speculation?""This woman harbors a deep resentment for the United States. The flag is just an excuse for her to show her basic disrespect.
Yet, here she is in the viper's pit of the USA biatching and moaning while taking advantage of whatever she can get from America." Jwhop sounds like you should take a look in the mirror as you seem to be doing a great job of providing "gossip and speculation" here...You don't know the details of the story just this one woman's rant. I agree with WOC flags are utterly ridiculous.... To me it's like spraying cats who mark their territory and I apply this to all flag wavers Japanese, American, Irish etc. Generally when we live in or visit a country we know what country we are in without needing to look at a flag to assure us of this fact. Jwhop are you merely identified as an American or are there more facets to your being? IP: Logged |
wheels of cheese
Knowflake Posts: 190
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted June 04, 2009 05:44 AM
quote:
The rest is up to you. But how is it possible those at "the best archeology school in Europe" never heard of Kennewick Man? ? ? ?
Quite possible, doofus.  See, the world's a big place and humans have been around, like fer... aaaaages. So there's a lot to study. See? And we generally start with Africa, and then Europe, in Europe. Y'know, places with some heritage and culture. 
Not so much archaeology on your side of the pond. Thought that was an obvious concept but praps not huh?
Long Time + Big Place = Lots to Study. Geddit?  Sorry that I am not omnipotent Jwhop, that's your territory. That facial reconstruction thing is bollocks. I stand by that because I've seen it in action in the lab. A lot of it is guesswork. And it seems here like they're going after the popular angle, probably to please their sponsors/funders and to get in the paper. I don't buy it. And if you look carefully at my argument I didn't say that they hadn't done facial reconstruction, I'm saying that facial reconstruction is part science, part artistry (which involves a lot of guesswork). Popularist nonsense. IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 625
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 04, 2009 01:14 PM
as to archaelogy any child's study of dinosaurs will show you how often scientists guess wrong when reconstructing the partial evidence left by bones etc... and i don't think "south asian" equals caucasian in anyone's definition. so real or not, properly reconstructed or not, kennewick man is still not properly identified. and since at one time all the continents were connected, well...depends how far you want to go. it is interesting seeing what they come up with and highlights the assertion that we all come from the same place really... IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 356
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 04, 2009 02:39 PM
I don't recall reading anywhere that the US flag was "shoved" in this foreign born fools face.Obviously, this woman has issues with the United States of which the flag is a symbol and an excuse.
She should pack up and leave this den of iniquity immediately. Interesting that those defending this idiot are also O'Bomber voters or would be if they could be. O'Bomber has the same disrespect for the US flag and other symbols of the US. A disrespect he put on full display in the primary election...when he needed the other America haters to support his candidacy. Wheels, the discovery of Kennewick Man is known world wide...except for merry old England it seems. How provincial, backward even of your archeology schools to not notice or understand the significance of a find which advances the cause of science in understanding how and when North America began settlement...and by whom. I would have thought the lawsuits and other legal wrangling over possession of the skeleton would have reached British ears. Go figure. Kennewick Man looks like he could be Captain Picard's twin brother.
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Lindaland
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