posted July 12, 2009 12:25 PM         

i am not saying one word against bear or any other soldiers in iraq. for your information, though i have said so before and you didn't notice it then, i have family there too.

but i ask you, why is it okay for us to make a decoy out of bear, his colleagues, and millions of iraqis so you can insult the rest of us for being on the mainland?

as for who planned 9/11 i haven't made any allegations. i merely said it happened on the bush/cheney watch and yet they claim to have kept us safe. i find this bizarre to say the least. and i think we would be better protected if we had adequate defense here rather than telling the rest of the world what they can and can't do. but then i'm not a microbiologist so what do i know about ANYthing?

posted July 12, 2009 03:03 PM         

"Let me remind you katatonic that the 9-11-01 attack was planned in 1998..on Kommander Korruption's watch. Let me further remind you katatonic that in the year 1998...on Kommander Korruption's watch, the Congress of the United States passed a resolution calling for the removal of Saddam Hussein from the head of the Iraqi government. Kommander Korruption lacked sufficient testosterone levels to get the job done."

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

"Document 56: Letter from Richard M. Nixon to Nicolae Ceausescu. [Regarding U.S.-Romanian Venture to Sell Uniforms to Iraq], May 3, 1984.

Former president Richard Nixon sends a letter to Romanian President Nicolae Ceausescu in support of a deal made by Colonel John Brennan, his former aide and chief of staff, and former attorney general John Mitchell, to buy Romanian-manufactured military uniforms for export to Iraq.

Media and criminal investigations of U.S. companies that had exported weapons-related or dual-use items to Iraq were conducted after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. Many of these companies seemed to have connections with former U.S. government officials."

just a start. one file. while there is no mention of actual weapons being sold to iraq by the official U.S. in the above, it is interesting reading and contains information that suggests while we kept our hands clean officially, us companies connected to us officials were dealing with iraq all the while...and we were promising them the MEANS to buy from countries full of "foreign subsidiaries" of home companies ...

still looking...but what is interesting here is really - we would rather support iraq and keep the oil coming than stand on our principles. of course this was 25 years ago. and the beat goes on. does it matter which party is in office at the time? apparently not.
* * *
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB80/

and that pesky problem of how we were already looking for an excuse to invade iraq before 9/11 - which is a large part of the belief of MANY that 9/11 was allowed to happen, like pearl harbour before it, as an excuse to propagate a war against ... whoever we could find to blame in the region!

i'm sure you guys have been here before. and it's not my interest to prove that bush lied. in fact i don't think i've ever alleged that he did, though plenty have. this game has been playing for decades now and i just wonder how/when/if it can stop before we are ALL blown to smithereens, not just a bunch of "idiots" and iraqis?

ps. no disrespect of the military has been mentioned or implied in any of this thread. except by jwhop.

posted July 13, 2009 01:21 AM         

quote:

---

Please don't attempt to cast yourself as Diotodus. You make no reasonable arguments and you have consistenty libeled and lied about Bush on this forum. Diotodus would disown you.

---

I find this a bit hilarious.

I didn't post that to cast myself as Diotodus, though clearly if Diotodus and Cleon are represented in this forum I would be Diotodus, and you would quite obviously be Cleon. What I find funny is that you obviously recognized me as Diotodus while simultaneously not answering the implication that your mindset is in line with Cleon's. Cleon, the fixed mindset ignoramous who called for the killing of all the men and enslavement of all the women and children of a revolting town as a means of deterrent and showing strenth.

Yes, when I heard that story it definitely brought to mind you and me. I was the one always preaching measure, and being transparently good. How violence begets more violence. I was the one posting the article about how the military came to bring some insurgent factions to the table as proof that my mindset is not only right, but it was the necessary course. And who can forget that NIE that said we were any safer as the result of the War on Terror?

Yes Cleon, who tried to derail debate by insisting that there could be no other opinion that would serve Athens better than his own, was wrong. I'm glad to see that you understand that between us, you are most certainly Cleon. Diotodus deftly pointed out that another revolt, having seen Cleon's punishment enacted, would plan more carefully and fight harder and longer in order to avoid Cleon's barbaric and humiliating punishment, which would cost Athens more time, money, and men than if they took a more conciliatory tone.

posted July 13, 2009 08:10 PM         

Wow, you found a picture of Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand. How impressive. That picture was dealt with here at least 6-7 years ago. BTW, Iran had held US diplomats captive for 444 days..in violation of International Law. Saddam was in a war with Iran.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

Now, if you have a picture of Rumsfeld handing Saddam a canister of VX nerve gas..that would go far towards substantiating your allegations.

posted July 13, 2009 08:16 PM         

quote:

---

clearly if Diotodus and Cleon are represented in this forum I would be Diotodus..acoustic

---

posted July 13, 2009 09:01 PM         

we encouraged him and turned a blind eye to who he was while it suited us and then we had to get rid of him. all in a day's work. who cares how many millions of innocent people died because of it?

posted July 13, 2009 10:21 PM         

The US gave neither weapons or weapons systems to Saddam Hussein in their war with Iran.

US help consisted of giving Saddam Hussein intel on Iranian troop movements.

Now katatonic, if you want to dispute that, then how about posting that list of US weapons and/or weapons systems you allege the US government gave to Saddam Hussein.

Hint, making provisions for uniforms for the Iraqi military does not come anywhere near rising to the level of supplying weapons or weapons systems to Saddam Hussein.

One other thing katatonic. If, as you allege the US gave weapons and/or weapons systems to Saddam, then where were those weapons in the 1st Gulf war...or the 2nd for that matter?

None were found. What was found were Russian tanks, French and Russian jet fighters, Russian small arms, RPG's from Russia, Russian armored personnel carriers, Russian designed SCUD missiles and either Russian or French artillery.

Iraq was a Soviet Union client state and was mostly supplied with Russian military equipment.

posted July 14, 2009 05:59 AM         

quote:

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The United States supported Iraq during the Iran–Iraq War as a counterbalance to post-revolutionary Iran. This support included several billion dollars worth of economic aid, the sale of dual-use technology, non-U.S. origin weaponry, military intelligence, Special Operations training, and direct involvement in warfare against Iran as well

---

posted July 14, 2009 06:06 AM         

quote:

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shows just how close to the edge of the cliff you are currently skating

---

God I love me a mixed metaphor.

posted July 14, 2009 09:18 AM         

Now, where's the list of weapons or weapons systems the US gave or sold to Saddam?

Please don't attempt to say the US made arrangements with the Soviet Union to supply tanks, armored personnel carriers, jet fighters, artillery, mortars and small arms to Saddam...that's what they already were doing.

posted July 14, 2009 12:53 PM         

If the US sold arms to Saddam, there would be a paper trail...at the very least, as well as people in the Pentagon, in the State Department and people at the Commerce Department would would be aware of the
sale(s).

You may not know this but there are lots of leftists working in the US government who would love to give Ronald Reagan a black eye for anything at all. You must ask yourself why no one came forward with invoices or even with a bare accusation.

No, all the accusations are coming from the leftist Fruit-loops crowd outside of government.

No US weapons were found in Iraq. The former Soviet Union was Saddam's principle arms supplier..just as they were for most of the Middle East Arab states at the time.

posted July 14, 2009 03:12 PM         

and at the risk of being repetitive to the point of tedious...

"Chronology
September 1980. Iraq invades Iran. The beginning of the Iraq-Iran war.
February 1982. Despite objections from congress, President Reagan removes Iraq from its list of known terrorist countries.
December 1982. Hughes Aircraft ships 60 Defender helicopters to Iraq.
1982-1988. Defense Intelligence Agency provides detailed information for Iraq on Iranian deployments, tactical planning for battles, plans for air strikes and bomb damage assessments.
November 1983. A National Security Directive states that the U.S. would do "whatever was necessary and legal" to prevent Iraq from losing its war with Iran.
November 1983. Banca Nazionale del Lavoro of Italy and its Branch in Atlanta begin to funnel $5 billion in unreported loans to Iraq. Iraq, with the blessing and official approval of the US government, purchased computer controlled machine tools, computers, scientific instruments, special alloy steel and aluminum, chemicals, and other industrial goods for Iraq's missile, chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs.
October 1983. The Reagan Administration begins secretly allowing Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Egypt to transfer United States weapons, including Howitzers, Huey helicopters, and bombs to Iraq. These shipments violated the Arms Export Control Act.
November 1983. George Schultz, the Secretary of State, is given intelligence reports showing that Iraqi troops are daily using chemical weapons against the Iranians.
December 20, 1983. Donald Rumsfeld , then a civilian and now Defense Secretary, meets with Saddam Hussein to assure him of US friendship and materials support.
January 14, 1984. State Department memo acknowledges United States shipment of "dual-use" export hardware and technology. Dual use items are civilian items such as heavy trucks, armored ambulances and communications gear as well as industrial technology that can have a military application.
March 1986. The United States with Great Britain block all Security Council resolutions condemning Iraq's use of chemical weapons, and on March 21 the US becomes the only country refusing to sign a Security Council statement recognizing Iraq's use of these weapons.
May 1986. The US Department of Commerce licenses 70 biological exports ot Iraq between May of 1985 and 1989, including at least 21 batches of lethal strains of anthrax.
May 1986. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade botulin poison to Iraq.
March 1987. President Reagan bows to the findings of the Tower Commission admitting the sale of arms to Iran in exchange for hostages. Oliver North uses the profits from the sale to fund an illegal war in Nicaragua.
May 17, 1987. Iraqi attack on USS Stark costs 37 American lives. Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger declares, "We will not be driven from the gulf," and accepts Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's apology for the "unintentional incident."

Late 1987. The Iraqi Air Force begins using chemical agents against Kurdish resistance forces in northern Iraq.
February 1988. Saddam Hussein begins the "Anfal" campaign against the Kurds of northern Iraq. The Iraq regime used chemical weapons against the Kurds killing over 100,000 civilians and destroying over 1,200 Kurdish villages.
April 1988. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of chemicals used in manufacture of mustard gas.
August 1988. Four major battles were fought from April to August 1988, in which the Iraqis massively and effectively used chemical weapons to defeat the Iranians. Nerve gas and blister agents such as mustard gas are used. By this time the US Defense Intelligence Agency is heavily involved with Saddam Hussein in battle plan assistance, intelligence gathering and post battle debriefing. In the last major battle with of the war, 65,000 Iranians are killed, many with poison gas. (For confirmation of DIA involvement, check the New York Times, August 18, 2002). Use of chemical weapons in war is in violation of the Geneva accords of 1925.
August 1988. Iraq and Iran declare a cease fire.
August 1988. Five days after the cease fire Saddam Hussein sends his planes and Hughes helicopters to northern Iraq to begin massive chemical attacks against the Kurds.
September 1988. US Senate Foreign Relations Committee summarizes their knowledge of the victims of the chemical attacks: "Those who were very close to the bombs died instantly. Those who did not die instantly found it difficult to breathe and began to vomit. The gas stung the eyes, skin, and lungs of the villagers exposed to it. Many suffered temporary blindness. Those who could not run from the growing smell, mostly the very old and the very young, died."

September 8, 1988 U.S. Senate unanimously passes the "Prevention of Genocide Act of 1988" the day after it is introduced. The act would have cut off from Iraq U.S. loans, military and non-military assistance, credits, credit guarantees, items subject to export controls, and U.S. imports of Iraqi oil. Immediately after the bill’s passage the Reagan Administration announces its opposition to the bill, and State Department spokesman Charles Redman calls the bill "premature.” Richard Murphy, Assistant Secretary of State says, "The US-Iraqi relationship is... important to our long-term political and economic objectives." The Administration works with House opponents to a House companion bill, and after numerous legislation compromises and end-of-session haggling, the Senate bill dies.
September 1988. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade anthrax to Iraq.
September 1988. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade botulinum toxin to Iraq.
September 1988. December 1988. Dow chemical sells $1.5 million in pesticides to Iraq despite knowledge that these would be used in chemical weapons.
July 25, 1990. US Ambassador to Baghdad meets with Hussein to assure him that President Bush "wanted better and deeper relations". Many believe this visit was a trap set for Hussein. A month later Hussein invaded Kuwait thinking the US would not respond.
August 1990. Iraq invades Kuwait. The precursor to the Gulf War.
Late February and March 1991. U.S.-led forces slaughter the Iraqi army as it retreats from Kuwait. Then George H. W. Bush calls an abrupt halt to the Gulf War. During the confusion, Bush calls for Iraqis to rise up against Saddam Hussein. But Hussein is allowed to fly his helicopters in order to crush the rebellion in the north and south of Iraq. At least an additional 100,000 people are killed and hundreds of thousands of refugees flee into the mountains along the border of Iraq and Turkey.
July 1991. The Financial Times of London reveals that a Florida chemical company had produced and shipped cyanide to Iraq during the 80's using a special CIA courier. Cyanide was used extensively against the Iranians.
August 1991. Christopher Droguol of Atlanta's branch of Banca Nazionale del Lavoro is arrested for his role in supplying loans to Iraq for the purchase of military supplies. He is charged with 347 counts of felony. Droguol is found guilty, but US officials plead innocent of any knowledge of his crime.
June 1992. Ted Kopple of ABC Nightline reports: "It is becoming increasingly clear that George Bush Sr., operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980's, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that built Saddam's Iraq into [an aggressive power]."

September 1992. US Representative Henry Gonzalez of Texas in testimony before the House: "The arming of Iraq is one of the most incredible chapters in recent foreign policy. Not only were foreign aid programs and international financial systems abused, but our military men and women were sent to fight the very war machine we helped create."

February 1994. Senator Riegle form Michigan, chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, testifies before the senate revealing large US shipments of dual-use biological and chemical agents to Iraq that may have been used against US troops in the Gulf War and probably was the cause of the illness known as Gulf War Syndrome.
August 2002. "The use of gas [during the Iran-Iraq war] on the battle field by the Iraqis was not a matter of deep strategic concern... We were desperate to make sure that Iraq did not lose". Colonel Walter Lang, former senior US Defense Intelligence officer tells the New York Times.
This chronology of the United States' sordid involvement in the arming of Iraq can be summarized in this way: The United States used methods both legal and illegal to help build Saddam's army into the most powerful army in the Mideast outside of Israel. The US supplied chemical and biological agents and technology to Iraq when it knew Iraq was using chemical weapons against the Iranians. The US supplied the materials and technology for these weapons of mass destruction to Iraq at a time when it was know that Saddam was using this technology to kill his Kurdish citizens. The United States supplied intelligence and battle planning information to Iraq when those battle plans included the use of cyanide, mustard gas and nerve agents. The United States blocked UN censure of Iraq's use of chemical weapons. The United States did not act alone in this effort. The Soviet Union was the largest weapons supplier, but England, France and Germany were also involved in the shipment of arms and technology.
So what do these events have to do with the current conflict? Just this: If we do go to war with Iraq, it is important to know why. War will not really be about terrorism. Twenty years ago the United States threw its support behind Saddam Hussein in a geopolitical bid for enhanced access to oil. The trajectory given him by our support lead directly to the Gulf War and to the current crises. War, after all, will be about a history of misdeeds and miscalculations. And war will not be about morality. War will be about cynicism, deceit and a thirst for oil that knows no boundaries." j

posted July 14, 2009 04:27 PM         

good digging kat.

new york times is a reputable source eh jwhops? a thread gone but not forgotten.