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Author Topic:   and for those in the military...
cpn_edgar_winner
Knowflake

Posts: 1202
From: Toledo, OH
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 04, 2009 12:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cpn_edgar_winner     Edit/Delete Message
WOW.

i am so glad they offer counseling to the deployed, now and upon return. maybe they should include family counseling.

bitter much?

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wheels of cheese
Knowflake

Posts: 590
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posted August 05, 2009 05:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wheels of cheese     Edit/Delete Message
Yeah, if I don't have a Gran who's operating a missile launcher in Helmand province I have no right to comment on things military, even though my government (and yours) are in billions of pounds worth of debt and I can't even find a dentist within 50 miles who will treat me, despite having been a working tax-paying person for the last 16 years....

Yeah, I feel my life's improved for sure.

I think what you want is a little along the lines of an armed fascist dictatorship Pidaua.

Exactly how committed are you to the American Constitution? You know, freedom of speech? Right to vote? Right to protest? Right to know where your tax dollars are going? What is it that you think you're fighting for again? And by this I mean your husband and yourself as you seem to have included yourself in the ranks by dint of sitting in an army house in Germany... Actually if that's the case me and my Mum did a good job in the first Gulf war, as I was sitting in a RAF house in England and previous to that Cyprus and Germany. *pats self on back for a good job jobbed* Yes, I DO have direct experience along similar lines to yours (i.e. not very much, but the dental care back then was great!). Does that change things for you? Does having a brother in law in the Marines make a difference to you? My niece's grandfather in the SAS? My father in the RAF? It shouldn't. Kat et al are as entitled to their comments as you or I.

I'm unsure what you're fighting for. The ability to do what you want around the globe without reference to the opinions of those paying yours and your husband's paycheque? Yah, good one.

Will you still feel the same if your government changes its mind yet again about which middle eastern President you should be shooting? You know, arm them one minute, hang them the next. Must be so confusing. It's so 1984! We're at war with Eurasia. Oh, wait, no, it's Eastasia!

I don't care for the whining "us against the world" tone of your posts. What do you want? Plaudits? Sympathy? Nobody else here who has freely CHOSEN their profession comes out with as much bitterness and bile as you, or expectations that we should all just simply accept what you're doing, and not only that, thank you for it. Why should I? You're fed and housed and have a salary, get medical treatment and a fat pension. The war in Iraq is a joke. You are answerable to the voters, and in view of how much the wars are costing you should expect some searching questions. Meanwhile I'll just sit here with my bad teeth and wonder how the war is improving my quality of life and freedoms. "Defence". You with your attitude, defending me? Think I'll pass. The world is all wrong. Run by greedy Westerners who want all the resources, and if you think the military and war is about anything else than that you're deluding yourself. Don't ask me to buy it, you can get as petulant as you like but I don't and never will. I don't know what the alternative is, but the way the Western world is run is wrong and the miltary is part of the wrongness.

Oh and I was SO amused to hear that the troops are all on smack in Afghanistan. The war on drugs!

Fight the war on heroin by... taking it yourself!

And the MI5 (British intelligence services) being implicated in torture. Fight the war on terrorists by.... becoming terrorists yourself! Oh, help me it's all too funny.

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wheels of cheese
Knowflake

Posts: 590
From:
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posted August 05, 2009 07:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wheels of cheese     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
Thank you.. but I will stand fast behind my husband and his fellow Soldiers. Your insignficant lives and comments mean nothing to me. At least I am making a difference and my husband is making ONE HELL of a difference. You could only hope to do so much in your lives.

You could only hope to do so much in your lives... Well, cheers! I think I'll continue to live my insignificant life just the way it is (i.e. not being a licensed paid killer today or in the forseeable future). Yeah, I may be a screaming "liberal" but I fail to see how wars are the answer in view of the fact that the government can't seem to make up its mind who the "enemy" is from one year to the next. I think I'll pass. But if I ever have a yen for heroin then I might sign up.

The military - at best puppets without the nouse to realise it, at worst institutionalised whining fascists who show no regard for the state of my teeth. Yeah, you might die but never forget you signed up for it pal.

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katatonic
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From:
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posted August 05, 2009 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
thank you wheels for your eloquence. i have been trying to point out the parallel between the sucking dry of our WORLD economy and the failure of the english health system - while OURS records record profits and pretends the recipients aren't receiving the same nasty service.

thank you also for pointing out that those of us who have NO connection to the military are still paying their wages, pensions and healthcare - which they don't think we slobs back home deserve. it does get very hard to figure out what they are fighting for when you come across the attitude that has been paraded here in their defense and our "slobbish" damnation.

i have family in the military too. not only do they have all the benefits of active military personnel but they have had access to special mortgages back home too. i don't begrudge them if that's the way they want to live....but then they don't call me a stupid interfering slob when i express my disaffection from the way our government is running our country into the ground. they actually SEE the pointlessness of it. they continue in order to help their mates as best they can get through a rotten situation.

of course those sitting in germany aren't actually IN the war. funny it is THEY who condemn us for raising questions about the validity of that war.

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 737
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 05, 2009 11:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
What makes you think Pid's husband Bear is "deployed"...in Germany?

So you didn't like the war, so what.

Bush did the right thing. A mass murderer of Iraqi citizens is dead at the hands of the Iraqis not to mention his insane sadist sons are also dead.

Both, no thanks to treasonous demoscats who attempted to throw the war for most of 6 years.

That includes O'Bomber who couldn't even admit the changed US tactics in Iraq had succeeded when the proof was everywhere.

Further, Bush enforced UN Resolutions (16) which the UN Security Council put out but were too cowardly to enforce.

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katatonic
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posted August 05, 2009 11:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
pid's husband is not the one "sitting in germany". duh...

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wheels of cheese
Knowflake

Posts: 590
From:
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posted August 06, 2009 04:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wheels of cheese     Edit/Delete Message
Hey Kat


Jwhop:

quote:
Bush did the right thing. A mass murderer of Iraqi citizens is dead at the hands of the Iraqis not to mention his insane sadist sons are also dead.

Yeah, George Bush is just one big bleeding heart eh? Couldn't bear to have the death of innocent Iraqi civilians on his conscience huh? Bite the big one junior. If you think that's the reason he went there then you're as deluded as our hausfrau.

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katatonic
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posted August 06, 2009 11:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
in any case we have now killed more iraqis than saddam did. what b*ll.

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 737
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 06, 2009 11:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
The lies here never cease do they?

"We have killed more Iraqi citizens than Saddam Hussein".

What utter complete bullshiit.

First, Saddam killed...deliberately and intentionally killed about 1,000,000 Iraqis. Saddam killed more Muslims than any other mass murderer in history.

Second, it was and still is terrorists who killed/kill the vast majority of Iraqi citizens...deliberately, intentionally and willfully. That's the definition of terrorists.

But hey, anything can be said which advances leftist ideology. It doesn't need to be true or even logical, rational or even close to the truth.

In leftist speak...whatever people can be made to believe..IS THE TRUTH.

Never mind the facts. Facts get in the way of leftist ideology and must be avoided at all costs.

There are words which perfectly describe those who would deny to others the very same rights, protections freedoms and liberties they themselves enjoy as citizens of the United States.

Those words are....'morally and spiritually corrupt'.

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wheels of cheese
Knowflake

Posts: 590
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posted August 06, 2009 11:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wheels of cheese     Edit/Delete Message
This site says it's a million.

http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq

"A study, published in prestigious medical journal The Lancet, estimated that over 600,000 Iraqis had been killed as a result of the invasion as of July 2006. Iraqis have continued to be killed since then. The death counter provides a rough daily update of this number based on a rate of increase derived from the Iraq Body Count. (See the complete explanation.)

The estimate that over a million Iraqis have died received independent confirmation from a prestigious British polling agency in September 2007. Opinion Research Business estimated that 1.2 million Iraqis have been killed violently since the US-led invasion.

This devastating human toll demands greater recognition. It eclipses the Rwandan genocide and our leaders are directly responsible. Little wonder they do not publicly cite it".

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wheels of cheese
Knowflake

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posted August 06, 2009 12:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wheels of cheese     Edit/Delete Message
600,000 as of 2006.

The Lancet is not a leftist publication btw. It's a very well respected medical journal.

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katatonic
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From:
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posted August 06, 2009 12:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
"In leftist speak...whatever people can be made to believe..IS THE TRUTH"

so claims the man who quotes tabloids and opinion blogs as fact. well done!

"There are words which perfectly describe those who would deny to others the very same rights, protections freedoms and liberties they themselves enjoy as citizens of the United States."

well, how did you like it when 9/11 gave us a taste of being invaded as we have so many places? cool wasn't it!!

of course a lot of people don't believe it was an outside job at all, but if you DO believe that, how does it feel to have someone judging your lifestyle and politics with violence?

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AcousticGod
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Posts: 1327
From: acousticgod@sbcglobal.net
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 06, 2009 06:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
so claims the man who quotes tabloids and opinion blogs as fact. well done!

Don't forget "opinion journals." That's his own definition for the places he learns his positions from.

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 737
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 07, 2009 09:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
The Lancet IS a leftist anti-war organization. I remember the so called "study" they commissioned. A study intended to produce a desired result.

They lied through their teeth and they still are lying. An organization like this...one which lies to achieve a political result is slime..pure and simple slime.

Imagine an organization so corrupt they lump terrorists into their numbers of innocent Iraqis killed with no differentiation...and fail to mention terrorists have killed the vast majority of Iraqi citizens...deliberately, intentionally and willfully...and attempt to blame the US military for those deaths.
Slime, pure and simple slime.

In the meantime, there are tens of thousands of terrorists decomposing beneath the sands of Iraq...who will never make, plant and/or detonate another bomb intended to kill unarmed civilians...anywhere. Nor will these "Ballsy" terrorists ever hide behind the skirts of women and children using them as hunan shields or open up on armed civilians with automatic weapons.

A vote against removing the butchering, torturing, raping murderer WAS a vote by Socialist friends of the Socialist Saddam to continue his rape, pillage and murder of Iraqi citizens. You know, just doing what Socialist dictators do to their own citizens.

There are even some who see the terrorists as freedom fighters...as they deliberately kill unarmed civilians. What brave warriors as they hide behind the skirts of women and children.

One even said terrorists are "Ballsy"...for opening up on unarmed women and children with automatic weapons. Apparently one of the elements of being "Ballsy" involves killing those who are unarmed and can't shoot back.

In the rest of the civilized world such actions are thought to be the mark of extreme cowardice.

The airhead Michael Moore called terrorists freedom fighters and said they would win. This intellectual pygmy...a man with nothing but air between his ears was wrong.

On another front, those who enjoy the fruits of freedom for themselves but would deny those same freedoms to others continue to be morally and spiritually corrupt.

One called Bush a murderer...a lie...but this is the same person who says terrorists engaged in killing unarmed innocent Iraqi civilians who can't fight back..."Ballsy".

Imagine that!

In spite of the best efforts of Marxist Socialists, in Congress and out, the Iraqi people are now free and well on their way to establishing their own brand of representative "secular" government right in the heart of the middle east.

Bush was right and those calling US military personnel murderers..those who bill themselves as...intellectually, morally and spiritually superior have shown themselves to be...intellectual, moral and spiritual pygmies.

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AcousticGod
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Posts: 1327
From: acousticgod@sbcglobal.net
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 07, 2009 10:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
...whom you can't seem to hold it together in the presence of. And so once again you've chosen not to address the truth spoken about you. Instead you try to cobble together another attempt at aggression, which never achieves its intent, because there's no integrity behind it. Always trying to offset the truth with a lie. How's that working out for you?

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wheels of cheese
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Posts: 590
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posted August 10, 2009 08:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wheels of cheese     Edit/Delete Message
I note you have absolutely nothing to say about the sale of arms to Iraq, jwhop. You let that one go without a murmur. And you talk of intellectual pygmies.

I note the absence of an invasion by your lovely touchy-feely Bush in countries that have no oil reserves but who have suffered atrocities. You know, North Korea, Zimbabwe. Innit weird??? Not a whiff of Bush going near those. I wonder why? Nah, all Zimbabwe got for 28 years of systematic human rights violations was economic sanctions. Ooh, I bet Mugabe shat himself over that. And North Korea - estimated 3 million people die in avoidable famine? How does that one fit into your worldview?

quote:
the Iraqi people are now free and well on their way to establishing their own brand of representative "secular" government right in the heart of the middle east

Britain and America are responsible for terrorism in Iraq by illegally selling arms to them in the first place, stirring up a load of unrest deliberately, setting up 9/11 which conveniently gave them an excuse to invade the country as "heroes to the rescue" even though 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq, then killing a million people, and installing a puppet leader of their choice. You call that freedom? To each their own I guess.

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pire
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posted August 10, 2009 03:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pire     Edit/Delete Message
add france to it.

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Node
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Posts: 190
From: Nov. 11 2005
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 10, 2009 05:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Node     Edit/Delete Message
Huya Wheels: Britain and America are responsible for terrorism in Iraq by illegally selling arms to them in the first place
    Our Reagan admin did it in part to finance a South American "war", I don't know Britain's take... what did the UK get out of sales?
And you can bet a Caerphilly [sp?] cheese we used means to make all sales legal. [for us]

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katatonic
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posted August 10, 2009 09:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
what the uk got was a) MONEY and b)a big pat on the backside from the usa. they got to play heroes for awhile and they got interest in the oil involved...not much, but what's a PM to do of a sunday afternoon?

play cricket or play war...whatever.

i understand there are plenty of people who, like jwhop, think this stuff is necessary. "that's the way the game is played". like i said i have family in the military. they do it out of good hearts. but how long can our home economies support the growing military and the slaughter of innocent people in the name of "god" "liberty" "oil" or whatever?

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jwhop
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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted August 12, 2009 09:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
There are some so dense no facts can penetrate their dense skulls.


Let's see; I'm supposed to defend myself against accusations I post articles from...

American Thinker.
Well, I know what scares leftists about the word "thinker". Leftists have no common ground with "thinkers". In fact, if leftists had the power of intellect to actually think...they wouldn't be leftists in the first place.

NewsMax.
WorldNetDaily.
I once ran a survey of articles posted on one of these sites..and I forget which one but the results of the survey apply to both.

What I found was that about 64% of all articles on that site were direct whole article reprints from so called Main Strean Media sources...printed word of word and with proper attribution.

I posted those results here. As usual, katatonic and acoustic don't know what they're talking about. Apparently, they can't dechiper the author or the source of what they've read. So, they continue to complain and whine about sources without realizing they're reading articles from their cherished dispensers of so called news.

The truth is the truth no matter who happens to be doing the dispensing.

The problem with leftists is they wouldn't recognize the truth if they stepped in it. Truth is not a friend of leftists and they treat the truth much like vampires avoid sunlight and the cross. They avoid the truth whenever possible.

Wheels, you have yet to post any information about US weapons or US weapons systems found in the possession of Saddam Hussein or found in Iraq.

According to you and some others who repeat endlessly the lies you find posted at leftist websites...the US sold or gave weapons and/or weapons systems to Saddam.

That's utter trash and any casual search would reveal Iraq's weapons and weapons systems were Russian, French and Chinese.

Let me repeat.

No US weapons or weapons systems were found in Iraq in 1991 or after.

For your allegation to be true, there should have been F-14, F-15, F-16 and F-4 fighters but what was found...and those shot down were Russian and French. For your allegation to be true, Saddam must have evaluated the US weapons he allegedly bought and found them inferior.

Such was not the case as both the Russian and French fighters were routinely swatted out of the air by F-15 and F-16's during BOTH wars. In fact, Saddam's problems in losing his airforce was so accute that he sent his best fighters to Iraq...so they wouldn't get shot down or destroyed on the ground.

Saddam's tanks were Russian T-72s. Those too were routinely destroyed by US and British tanks. Many of Saddam's tank crews abandoned their tanks to avoid being killed when Saddam's tanks were engaged and destroyed by coalition tanks which included the US Abrams.

The facts are that destroyed Russian, French and Chinese weapons littered the landscape in Iraq and not a single US weapon or weapons system was found in Iraq.

You are wrong wheels, dead wrong and it's time you admit you are wrong.

You seem to forget we've had this same conversation before. So, why are you alleging this nonsense?

quote:
I note you have absolutely nothing to say about the sale of arms to Iraq, jwhop...wheels

Pire, you don't come close to knowing what you're talking about.

The Reagan administration did not sell arms to Iraq. In fact, the Reagan administration arranged the sale of spare parts..mostly spare parts for F-4 Phantoms and perhaps some parts for F-14's...but not to Iraq...which had no F-4's and had no F-14's to begin with.

The sale of parts was arranged through Israel and the money from the sale went to the Contras in Central America who were fighting off the spread of Communism from the little bast@rd Daniel Ortega in Nicaragua. The sale of those parts was to IRAN...not to Iraq.

The congressional investigation was focused on those sales and it was dubbed...The Iran/Contra Affair. It was not dubbed...The Iraq/Contra Affair.

Did some US manufacturers sell some non military equipment to Iraq. Yep and there was no reason for Bell to not sell Saddam some civilian helicopters. These were the very same types of civilian helicopters Bell sold to news organizations for traffic reporting and to construction companies and to businesses around the world.

These were not military models with avionics, armor, gun mounts, rocket pod mounts and all the other military hardware to adapt them to military uses. These were civilian helicopters.

Further, there was no prohibition against US companies selling common agricultural, mining, transportation and other non military equipment to Iraq.

That said, it's laughable I need to defend my sources from those who allege...Bush is a murderer, Bush lied, Bush pressured intelligence agents for a finding to go to war in Iraq, the United States oppressed/repressed the Iraqi people..while Saddam was in complete control in Iraq, terrorists are "Ballsy", the US should have sent a water treatment plant to Saddam..while Saddam was in total control of Iraq...and the fact the US didn't do that is proof the US..and the American people oppressed/repressed the Iraqi people.

On another front we had the allegation Sarah Palin was "indicted" in Alaska, Bush and the Patriot Act voilated the civil rights of Americans...but when asked for proof, couldn't find a single instance.

All this is utter bullshiit whining from those who question the sources I use.

It's not surprising since these are O'Bomber's Kool-Aid drinkers who relish every drop.


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katatonic
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posted August 29, 2009 03:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
bump for pid..

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katatonic
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posted August 29, 2009 05:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
as to your last jwhop, yes an instance WAS cited re the patriot act. and i have retracted for the last time using the word "indicted" re sarah palin!

however, while i don't believe terrorists are "freedom fighters" i believe THEY DO. from their point of view WE are the interlopers, telling their countries what to do and/or influencing them with our superior bank accounts and it matters little which country produced the weapons if we gave them money to buy them...and the fact that mustard gas is used in domestic swimming pools doesnt make it good for your health!


but as for the terrorists, you seem to think it's okay for a citizen to execute an abortion doctor, whom many would call a good man. where do you draw the line? you would "gladly put a bullet in hitler's head" but you consider innocent iraqis an unfortunate by-product of the war.

i don't consider military personnel murderers, however they are by definition put in the position where "kill or be killed" is a very real scenario. this is not a mindset that creates harmony and freedom in the world! what we are doing is equivalent to fighting fire with gasoline. not very effective if you want to put the fire out...

and as to sources the LANCET is a medical journal, no? but the ones i was talking about were the OPINION journals who filter the truth thru their own fear, and the tabloids like the daily mail who exploit every possible sensationalist angle to make a buck.

if you see life as a threat and a struggle, that is what you will not only get but create more of.

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wheels of cheese
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posted September 08, 2009 07:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wheels of cheese     Edit/Delete Message

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