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Author Topic:   Political Kabuki Theater
Node
Knowflake

Posts: 266
From: Nov. 11 2005
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 22, 2009 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Node     Edit/Delete Message
Two best articles I have read in a long time:

In part:


"Since facts, such as the one I just mentioned, don't seem to hold as much influence as facts used to, let me quote from the health care proposal being prepared for submission to congress:

H.R. 3200: Sec 246 NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

I do not know what makes the language of Sec. 246 so hard to understand, or accept. Since it's right there, visible for anyone to read, I have to suspect that Joseph Wilson either doesn't know it's there, or doesn't care. That he, and the many (many, many) others who are furious about aspects of the proposed health care legislation, simply want to use any emotion, misinformation, slander, or lie to prevent its passage. That's a shame, because a) there are plenty of areas in which to find legitimate fault in the bill, as with many bills, and b) because giving health care insurance to the most people possible is a very good thing to do. That's why every other advanced nation on planet Earth does it -- and most of them have far greater health than we enjoy, and spend much less on keeping it that way."

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/evan-handler/have-you-no-decency-sir-a_b_282395.html

Same author:

The strong minority current won't surprise anyone who's followed the health care debate, or most any political discussion, over the past couple of years. A vocal minority has let me know, over and over again, that they don't want the government taking any more of their money; that they want to be able to decide how to spend and invest their own money; that they don't want to have to pay for anything for anyone else; and -- the big time, firecracker, most-consistent comment of all -- they don't want any Americans to have government-subsidized health care insurance if one single, ******* , ******* , disgusting illegal immigrant might be able to get their hands on it, too.

Okay. I get it. And here's my response to both groups.

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/evan-handler/america-i-love-you-americ_b_286226.html

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katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 1842
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 22, 2009 03:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
one of the relevant points here, which is really alarming in fact, is that it is more than possible that many of the people in congress haven't even read the damm thing...and are so busy looking for ways of rebutting it that they are probably missing stuff that really NEEDS work and alteration...

the fact that they have picked on things that aren't even in there to jump on and scream about just shows how much respect they have for the intelligence of the average american.

but i'm happy to see the process continuing and proving the irrelevance of people like joe wilson and ms impalin.

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Node
Knowflake

Posts: 266
From: Nov. 11 2005
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 23, 2009 09:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Node     Edit/Delete Message
RE: Misdirected focus, soooo agree.

They all need a focus group team leader.

One part that really brings it home is infrastructure. Without care, maintenance, money, regulation, etc our dams, highways, transit- wouldn't exist, and we wouldn't survive a week without them. Planes would fall out of the sky on our tiny Little heads....is amusing yet realistic imagery.
Every single thing that keeps us safe in our every day life is provided by a government standard or regulation.
What is left of them that is.

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 841
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 23, 2009 12:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
H.R. 3200: Sec 246 NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

I do not know what makes the language of Sec. 246 so hard to understand, or accept. Since it's right there, visible for anyone to read, I have to suspect that Joseph Wilson either doesn't know it's there, or doesn't care.

The language in HR3200 as it applies to subtitle 246 IS NOT at all difficult to understand...not for anyone who actually speaks English and has a rudimentary understanding of definitions.

Subtitle 246 is speaking about forbidding federal payments..from the tax payments US citizens make to the federal government... to illegal aliens to offset their costs of providing themselves health insurance....and nothing else whatsoever. Further, the wording in section 246 says Nothing in THIS SUBTITLE...246 and says nothing about other sections of HR3200.

This subtitle has nothing whatsoever to do with other provisions of HR3200 which would permit illegal aliens to purchase health insurance and there is no reporting mechanism to even prevent illegal aliens from receiving the so called "forbidden affordability credits" because there is no enforcement mechanism in place to prevent that from happening.

You're beating a dead horse with a disingenuous argument.

Joe Wilson called O'Bomber out for his lies and O'Bomber richly deserved to be publicly called out for lying to the American people.

Now, why don't you find any other subtitle of HR3200 which sets up a reporting mechanism to check the citizenship status of those applying for health insurance either under a government option or a private insurance option. While you're doing that, perhaps you might want to look for any other provisions of HR3200 which says illegal aliens are specifically excluded from coverage for health insurance under the provisions of HR3200...because subtitle 246 is speaking about a single topic...affordablity CREDITS and nothing more.

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katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 1842
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 23, 2009 01:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
"NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS"

in other words no subsidy for illegals. if they want to PAY for medical care, we will be happy to take their money before they are deported!! lucky them...

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AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 1438
From: acousticgod@sbcglobal.net
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 23, 2009 03:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
You're beating a dead horse with a disingenuous argument.

Only one side HAS an argument. One side realizes that illegals aren't covered in the first place. The other side posits that because illegals are only brought up once in the bill that it must mean illegals will have access to all of the benefits throughout the rest of the document. That's crazy.

It's an American bill for American citizens. That's it.

If you want to prove otherwise, show where illegals are made eligible anywhere in the document.

quote:
Now, why don't you find any other subtitle of HR3200 which sets up a reporting mechanism to check the citizenship status of those applying for health insurance either under a government option or a private insurance option. While you're doing that, perhaps you might want to look for any other provisions of HR3200 which says illegal aliens are specifically excluded from coverage for health insurance under the provisions of HR3200...because subtitle 246 is speaking about a single topic...affordablity CREDITS and nothing more.

Hilarious. Again? Once again, you haven't done YOUR homework in finding any justification for your idea that illegals would be entitled to benefits, and now you expect to put it back on me to find the reporting mechanism. For someone who likes to claim that others are always ducking, bobbing, and weaving, it's amazing how often you yourself avoid your calls to proof.

You tried the 14th Amendment, and it was a complete flop. Are you saying that you're out?

____________________________
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf

The Secretary of Health and Human Services is given powers throughout the bill for establishing eligibility to the program. As previously stated, illegals are not citizens and therefore aren't eligible for government benefits.

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 841
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 23, 2009 05:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
Because of the wording of subtitle 246 of HR3200 there is only one interpretation to make of what it actually says. It's talking about affordability CREDITS and nothing else.

Ummm, my comments were not directed at you acoustic. But if you wish to dig in and actually look for any other section or subtitle of HR3200 which specifically excludes illegal aliens from eligibility for coverage under O'BomberCare..then be my guest and do so.

If you wish to find any subtitle contained within HR3200 which sets up any mechanism for screening applicants based on citizenship status...then...be my guest and do so.

I know you're going to duck, bob and weave and avoid the obvious acoustic. There aren't any of those provisions in HR3200.

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katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 1842
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 23, 2009 05:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
it doesn't go into detail because they are ILLEGAL in the first place, ie if they are found out they are ripe for the INS.

so of course they are not included in the bill. they are IRRELEVANT to the whole question.

the healthcare forum is not really the place where illegal aliens should be dealt with. they are a separate issue entirely.

however it was REAGAN who gave coverage to ALL - legal or illegal. this bill actually starts to trim back on that. the fact they are mentioned at all - in terms of being ineligible for aid - is a step AWAY from covering them.

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 841
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 23, 2009 05:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
Yeah, since O'Bomber and demoscats got caught trying to give health insurance benefits to illegal aliens, they've had to try another attack on America.

Now, they want to make illegal aliens...legal citizens...so they can give them O'BomberCare.

The whole thing is going down the tubes just like HillaryCare.

If anything passes by actual votes in the House and Senate, it won't bear any resemblance to the O'BomberCare disaster being discussed.

There's only one way for O'BomberCare to pass and that's by the "budget reconciliation" process where only a 50%+1 vote is required. If demoscats do that, there will be a war in the Congress and write it down katatonic; trainloads of demoscats will be going back home to start another career in November 2010.

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katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 1842
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 23, 2009 06:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
i don't recall too many of your predictions coming true in the past year, jwhop. i editted my post before yours came up. it was REAGAN who made coverage mandatory for ALL, including the illegals amongst us. you are already paying for them and this bill attempts to pull back on that.

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AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 1438
From: acousticgod@sbcglobal.net
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 23, 2009 06:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
Ummm, my comments were not directed at you acoustic. But if you wish to dig in and actually look for any other section or subtitle of HR3200 which specifically excludes illegal aliens from eligibility for coverage under O'BomberCare..then be my guest and do so.

If you wish to find any subtitle contained within HR3200 which sets up any mechanism for screening applicants based on citizenship status...then...be my guest and do so.

I know you're going to duck, bob and weave and avoid the obvious acoustic. There aren't any of those provisions in HR3200.


I already put you on this, Jwhop.

I've already asked you to prove that illegals are covered by the bill five days ago. This is your ducking, bobbing, and weaving. You tried citing the 14th Amendment, but that only offers equal protections to citizens. Nowhere in the bill is any provision made that would allow illegals access, and...

You haven't even attempted to prove your own position.

Not exactly how arguments are won, Jwhop.

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AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 1438
From: acousticgod@sbcglobal.net
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 23, 2009 06:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
From Page 2 of this thread:

    Yes, and they can see every other subsection as well...And if they were ambitious, they could show where they get the idea that the bill would cover illegal aliens. It won't be happening, though, because it's not in there. ~ AG

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katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 1842
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 23, 2009 06:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
interesting how a couple of words can create a completely different result in a poll:

More than three out of every four Americans feel it is important to have a "choice" between a government-run health care insurance option and private coverage, according to a public opinion poll released on Thursday.

A new study by SurveyUSA puts support for a public option at a robust 77 percent, one percentage point higher than where it stood in June.

But the numbers tell another story, as well.

Earlier in the week, after pollsters for NBC dropped the word "choice" from their question on a public option, they found that only 43 percent of the public were in favor of "creating a public health care plan administered by the federal government that would compete directly with private health insurance companies."

Opponents of the president's agenda jumped on the findings as evidence that backing for the public option was dropping. Proponents responded by arguing that NBC's tinkering with the language of the question (which it had also done in its July survey) had contributed to the drop in favorability for a public plan.

SurveyUSA's poll, which was commissioned by the progressive group MoveOn.org, a proponent of the public plan, gives credence to those critiques. While arguments about what type of language best describe the public option persist --"choice" is considered a trigger word that everyone naturally supports -- it seems clear that the framing of the provision goes a long way toward determining its popularity.

In asking its question SurveyUSA used the same exact words that NBC/Wall Street Journal had used when conducting its June 2009 survey. That one that found 76 percent approval for the public option: "In any health care proposal, how important do you feel it is to give people a choice of both a public plan administered by the federal government and a private plan for their health insurance--extremely important, quite important, not that important, or not at all important?"

To ensure that its respondent pool was composed of people from similar demographics and political mindsets, SurveyUSA asked respondents a question pulled directly from NBC's August survey. The results were nearly identical.


Read a description of the president's health care plan, 51 percent of Survey USA respondents said they "favored" the approach, while 43 percent opposed it. In the NBC poll, 53 percent of respondents said they favored the president's plan, 43 percent said they opposed it."


Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/20/new-poll-77-percent-suppo_n_264375.html

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AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 1438
From: acousticgod@sbcglobal.net
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 23, 2009 07:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
Here's a video for you and Node:

Protect Insurance Companies PSA

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