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Author Topic:   Political Kabuki Theater
Node
Knowflake

Posts: 266
From: Nov. 11 2005
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 10, 2009 09:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Node     Edit/Delete Message

Ever watched BBC live coverage of PP? Personally I liked the centuries old room better -more face-to-face, a microphone drops down to better hear the Heckler. Any way Obama had his last night; but the best the congressman could do was Heckle with a lie. The irony being he called Obama a liar.
Newsweek--How nasty has the political discourse in Washington gotten? During his speech to Congress tonight, President Obama defended his health care plan, saying that he had never proposed providing coverage to illegal immigrants. “You lie!” shouted Rep. Joe Wilson, a Republican from South Carolina, prompting Obama to briefly pause in the delivery of his speech and eye his heckler. No doubt emotions are often heated during these joint sessions with the president and members of Congress, but decorum typically rules—except for tonight, apparently. In an interview with CNN afterwards, Sen. John McCain trashed Wilson’s heckling and urged him to apologize. “Totally disrespectful,” McCain said. A little over an hour after the speech, Wilson did just that, issuing a statement of regret. "This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the President's remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill," Wilson said. "While I disagree with the President's statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the President for this lack of civility." Wilson also called the White House where he conveyed his apology to Obama Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel.

Of course, it may be too little too late. Wilson, a rank and file Republican, was largely unknown nationally before tonight's outburst. Now he's a trending topic on Twitter and Google and some critics are vowing to contribute money to his Democratic opponent in what already looks like a tough 2010 race. And for the record, Wilson was wrong: HR 3200, the health care bill under debate in the House, explicitly prohibits coverage for illegal immigrants.


The post speech follow up, was even weaker. Demanding a scrap of the legislation..and let's "start over" Conservatives have had since January to produce an alternative. Gee, guess that sounds too much like work.

One thing is for sure: Wilson’s outburst didn’t do the GOP any favors tonight, particularly against a backdrop of a speech in which Obama went after his critics to either put up or shut up on health care reform. It completely overshadowed the official Republican response to Obama’s speech. Rep. Charles Boustany, a cardiothoracic surgeon from Louisiana, urged Obama to scrap the current bill and start anew with true bipartisan negotiations. “We agree much needs to be done to lower the cost of health care for all Americans. On that goal, Republicans are ready — and we've been ready — to work with the President for common-sense reforms that our nation can afford,” he said

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Node
Knowflake

Posts: 266
From: Nov. 11 2005
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 10, 2009 09:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Node     Edit/Delete Message
wiki~

The term originates from the textile trade, where to heckle was to tease or comb out flax or hemp fibres. The additional meaning, to interrupt speakers with awkward or embarrassing questions, was added in Scotland, and specifically perhaps in early nineteenth century Dundee, a famously radical town where the hecklers who combed the flax had established a reputation as the most radical and belligerent element in the workforce. In the heckling factory, one heckler would read out the day's news while the others worked, to the accompaniment of interruptions and furious debate.[1]

Heckling was a major part of the vaudeville theater. Sometimes it was incorporated into the play. Milton Berle's weekly TV variety series in the 1960s featured a heckler named Sidney Spritzer (German/Yiddish for "Squirter") played by Borscht Belt comic Irving Benson. In the 1970s and 1980s, The Muppet Show, which was also built around a vaudeville theme, featured two hecklers, Statler & Waldorf (two old men named after famous hotels). Heckles are now particularly likely to be heard at stand-up comedy performances, to unsettle or compete with the performer.


more from the wiki page.

In 2004, American Vice President Dick Cheney was interrupted mid-speech by Perry Patterson, a middle-aged mother in a pre-screened rally audience. After various supportive outbursts that were permitted ("Four more years," "Go Bush!"), Patterson uttered "No, no, no, no" and was removed from the speech area and told to leave. She refused, and was arrested for criminal trespass.[5]


During a speech by Jack Straw at the 2005 Labour Party conference, 87-year old, anti-war protestor Walter Wolfgang (a former member of Labour Action for Peace) was forcefully ejected from the audience after yelling during Straw's speech. He repeatedly shouted "nonsense" and "that's a lie" to Straw's talking about the establishment of democracy in Iraq. His security pass confiscated by stewards, Wolfgang was arrested under the Terrorism Act when trying to re-enter the conference. After significant criticism from the media and other politicians, Tony Blair and Labour party officials apologized for the event and Wolfgang received a hero's welcome on returning to the conference.


In an era when it was not uncommon for rotten fruit and vegetables to be thrown at speakers, Australian Prime Minister Ben Chifley once exhorted his audience to lend him their ears, paraphrasing Mark Antony. Immediately, a large cabbage landed on the stage. Chifley replied "I said your ears, Sir, not your head.


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jwhop
Knowflake

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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted September 10, 2009 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
I took 2 tbsp of Pepto Bismol last night before O'Bomber's speech. Listening to this lying bozo always makes me want to throw up.

Right on schedule, O'Bomber spewed lie after lie, after lie, after lie.

It was funny to watch the brain dead, empty headed Nancy Pee-lousy jump to her feet and applaud each of O'Bomber's lies.

Finally, there was one Republican...a newcomer to Congress who had had enough of O'Bombers lies and shouted YOU LIE. Which is the proper reaction to anyone who if they couldn't lie wouldn't have anything to say at all.

Indeed, O'Bomber was lying through his teeth, Everyone knew it but Joe Wilson was the only politician present with the guts to call O'Bomber out.

We've finally found an intellectually honest politician in Washington DC. His name is Joe Wilson.

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katatonic
Knowflake

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posted September 10, 2009 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
In 2004, American Vice President Dick Cheney was interrupted mid-speech by Perry Patterson, a middle-aged mother in a pre-screened rally audience. After various supportive outbursts that were permitted ("Four more years," "Go Bush!"), Patterson uttered "No, no, no, no" and was removed from the speech area and told to leave. She refused, and was arrested for criminal trespass.[5]

this is the party that champions free speech?

joe wilson better start his own party, then, because the republicans were obviously NOT AMUSED at his calling the president a liar. you have read the bill - you know the one that says NO ONE HERE ILLEGALLY will be eligible for this healthcare?
(HR 3200 section 246 i believe)

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Node
Knowflake

Posts: 266
From: Nov. 11 2005
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posted September 10, 2009 04:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Node     Edit/Delete Message
I also think it funny that while Joey Wilson apologized, he did not retract.

The quote "While I disagree with the President's statement" means he still believes, or would like to appear to believe, that HR 3200 does allow illegals coverage.

Not smart, politically or factually. I think that the repo think tank staged this. He did not act alone in other words. Do the gentlemen on either side look surprised by his out burst? No, they look smug.


p.s. it is a hot button...they already tried the kill granny maneuver, next stop immigrants.

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Node
Knowflake

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From: Nov. 11 2005
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posted September 10, 2009 06:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Node     Edit/Delete Message
I went looking for the who and what regarding damage control. Wondering who would be "sent out" of the GOP bullpen to "pitch" the clean up.

found this instead....

A million-dollar day for the DNC


More evidence of a campaign-style reaction to Joe Wilson's outburst: The DNC's Brad Woodhouse emails that "in the 18 hours since the President spoke, 381,000 people have signed this *letter in support of reform to members of Congress and we have raised - online alone - $1,087,000 - without a fund raising ask in the email

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katatonic
Knowflake

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posted September 10, 2009 08:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
i find it interesting that the party that is afraid of socialism/fascism coming to america, is the party that is indulging in scapegoatism full tilt. it's the immigrants, its the socialists, its the single moms, its obama it's - gotta be someone other than me!

THIS is what hitler did.

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AcousticGod
Knowflake

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From: acousticgod@sbcglobal.net
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posted September 10, 2009 10:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
I'm just sad I wasn't here to predict Jwhop's becoming a fan of Joe Wilson. Birds of a feather....

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jwhop
Knowflake

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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted September 12, 2009 06:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
acoustic, you couldn't "predict" a flood if you were standing in the street with flood waters up to your caboose.

O'Bomber lied...pure and simple when he said illegal aliens would not be covered by his Socialist Health care bill known as O'BomberCare.

The proof he lied through his teeth about that is beyond question...because the Senate Finance committee moved immediately to specifically exclude illegal aliens from coverage on any public funded and government operated health care policy.

In the past, Republicans offered amendments to the various pieces of legislation making up O'BomberCare....AND democrats voted them down in Committee. Illegal aliens were covered and were intended to be covered.

Now, the only out for leftist to save face is to say...everyone should be covered no matter what their citizenship status is in the US.

Joe Wilson was absolutely right to call the Marxist Socialist O'Bomber out for his lying.

For those who believe Joe Wilson got the worst of the exchange, think again.

O'Bomber has released what he is calling "Clarification" . What it really is...is surrender and admission that Joe Wilson is right on the issue and that O'Bomber and demoscats were lying all along.

"Today, for the first time as far as we know, the administration is backing a provision that would require proof of citizenship before someone could enroll in a plan selected on the exchange.

Here, the administration also concedes that hospitals would be compensated with public funds for the care of undocumented immigrants." http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/09/11/2065287.aspx

What a bitter pill that must have been for the berserker morons at MSNBC to swallow.

Now, as to the rudeness of Joe Wilson to call O'Bomber out in such a public way in a televised speech before the Congress.

Earlier in O'Bomber's lying speech, O'Bomber called those opposing his Socialist Health care bill...liars. Leftists want it both ways. O'Bomber was himself RUDE and he was RUDE first but leftists seem to believe they should be permitted to get away with their own rudeness and lies while everyone else is restrained.

The only liars present were O'Bomber and lying Socialist demoscats.

Joe Wilson is receiving broad based support from across America in the form of contributions and raised almost $800,000 in less than 48 hours...unsolicited donations I might add.

Now, all that remains is for these Socialist morons to drop any provisions for a Socialist government run health care system or any language which would or could trigger the government stepping in to crank up such an already proved failure that's killing citizens of nations who have a Socialist Health Care system.

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Node
Knowflake

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posted September 12, 2009 10:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Node     Edit/Delete Message

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Node
Knowflake

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posted September 12, 2009 10:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Node     Edit/Delete Message
Baucus & Conrad cave again, toughening the health care bill's anti-immigrant provisions to appease Joe W.
are we forgetting that there is a difference between insuring an illegal, and treating one?

Now we have proof of citizenship required...Thanks Joe~!

This opens another can of worms.

also people coming in looking for the jobs companies have advertised in Mexico and other countries. Employers, not the workers, are a big part of the problem.

Send a few CEOs to prison or make the fines for breaking immigration laws so high it breaks the company and you'll see a big drop in undocumented workers.


Kowtowing to these cretins only inflames Democrats. It does increase donations tho
Rewarding bad behavior, the American thing to do.

Then you have the moral issue as well, most other countries treat a sick person no matter what. Isn't there something called the Hippocratic Oath?

from Wiki->In the 1970s, many American medical schools chose to abandon the Hippocratic Oath as part of graduation ceremonies, usually substituting a version modified to something considered more politically and medically correct, or an alternate pledge like the Oath or Prayer of Maimonides.

Now it is not politically correct to treat an injured or ill person if they do not have at least 3 forms of documentation on their person. If you have an accent, be prepared to be treated as an illegal first, and a human being second.

The language in the proposed House Bill already stated that illegals were not covered, now they are not human as well.

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jwhop
Knowflake

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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted September 12, 2009 10:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
The language in the proposed House Bill already stated that illegals were not covered..Node

Show me the specific language in any version of the House Bill...HR 3200 which prohibits illegal aliens from government run health care insurance coverage.

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katatonic
Knowflake

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posted September 12, 2009 12:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
as before, jwhop, check section 246 of HR3200, where it says "NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS". you know where to find the bill draft, you posted it here somewhere. i'm sure you can find it again.

it doesn't say we won't treat them, it says they are not eligible for payment coverage. so, say and undocumented alien has TB, he won't have to roam the streets sharing it with the rest of us, but he will not be covered by the government for treatment.

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jwhop
Knowflake

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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted September 12, 2009 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
Unlike you katatonic, I know what this actually means.

"HR 3200, SUBTITLE C, SECTION 246
Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

It simply means the federal government will not give money to illegal aliens to purchase health insurance. It does not mean illegal aliens could not purchase the "Government Option" at the same cost as citizens. Further, the "Government Option" would be subsidized by taxpayers because it would be sold below the cost of actual medical care...and also below the cost of private insurance.

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Node
Knowflake

Posts: 266
From: Nov. 11 2005
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posted September 12, 2009 02:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Node     Edit/Delete Message
*EDIT==Sec. 242. Affordable Credit Eligible Individual.
(a) Definition.—
(1) In General.—
For purposes of this division, the term “affordable credit eligible individual” means, subject to subsection (b), an individual who is lawfully present in a State in the United States

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.
(c) Use of Affordability Credits.—
(1) In General.—
In Y1 and Y2 an affordable credit eligible individual may use an affordability credit only with respect to a basic plan.
(2) Flexibility in Plan Enrollment Authorized.—
Beginning with Y3, the Commissioner shall establish a process to allow an affordability credit to be used for enrollees in enhanced or premium plans. In the case of an affordable credit eligible individual who enrolls in an enhanced or premium plan, the individual shall be responsible for any difference between the premium for such plan and the affordable credit amount otherwise applicable if the individual had enrolled in a basic plan.

It bars the Gov option, as well as private.

the president’s proposals would bar illegal immigrants from purchasing private insurance through the new government marketplace, known as an exchange, and that verification of immigration status would be required for anyone seeking to purchase coverage.

You have to prove resident status for all, and any plan

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AcousticGod
Knowflake

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From: acousticgod@sbcglobal.net
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posted September 13, 2009 04:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
acoustic, you couldn't "predict" a flood if you were standing in the street with flood waters up to your caboose.

I predicted the last election correctly at your request, and I certainly would've predicted you'd come out defending Joe Wilson the idiot moron. You seem to like those types.

quote:
O'Bomber lied...pure and simple when he said illegal aliens would not be covered by his Socialist Health care bill known as O'BomberCare.

The proof he lied through his teeth about that is beyond question...because the Senate Finance committee moved immediately to specifically exclude illegal aliens from coverage on any public funded and government operated health care policy.


You're wrong.

    Obama was correct when he said his plan wouldn't insure illegal immigrants; the House bill expressly forbids giving subsidies to those who are in the country illegally. Conservative critics complain that the bill lacks an enforcement mechanism, but that hardly makes the president a liar. http://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/obamas-health-care-speech/

quote:
Earlier in O'Bomber's lying speech, O'Bomber called those opposing his Socialist Health care bill...liars.

Because they were liars. Sarah Palin's characterization of end-of-life couseling as "death panels" was completely outside the realm of reality. It's not RUDE to tell the truth about those on the Right who ARE making stuff up. I KNOW you don't understand that those in your party spin you constantly, but those with rational minds prefer information to be treated rationally and fairly. Not wanting Socialized healthcare is one thing; making stuff up in a bid to stop it is another. It's not too much to ask you guys to be against it for logical reasons.

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katatonic
Knowflake

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posted September 13, 2009 12:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
AG it is apparent that truth is not the objective in jwhop's camp. the repetition of lies until people can't figure out what is true is more like it. perhaps he would like to vacation in somalia and see what a country without a government is like. live by the gun, live where the gun is law....

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AcousticGod
Knowflake

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posted September 15, 2009 12:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
Immigrants and Insurance

September 11, 2009

Several readers have e-mailed us about a report from the Congressional Research Service that they say proves illegal immigrants will have coverage under the proposed House health care plan. In fact, that report says exactly what we concluded yesterday: The bill does not provide coverage for illegal immigrants, but there’s no enforcement mechanism explicitly specified. The newly created Health Choices Commissioner would be responsible for deciding how applicants for the affordability credits would need to prove their eligibility.

The CRS report states, as we have reported, that section "246 would bar unauthorized aliens from receiving any premium or cost-sharing credit." It goes on to address the Republican objections we wrote about in our article on Obama’s health care speech:

    CRS, Aug. 25: Some have expressed concerns that since H.R. 3200 does not contain a mechanism to verify immigration status, the prohibitions on certain noncitizens (e.g, nonimmigrants and unauthorized aliens) receiving the credits may not be enforced. However, others note that under §142(a)(3) of the bill, it is the responsibility of the Health Choices Commissioner (Commissioner) to administer the “individual affordability credits under subtitle C of title II, including determination of eligibility for such credits.” Thus, it appears, absent of a provision in the bill specifying the verification procedure, that the Commissioner would be responsible for determining a mechanism to verify the eligibility of noncitizens for the credits.

The Health Choices Commissioner would also be responsible for deciding how and whether credits should be administered to families where some members are unauthorized and others are not, for example a family where a child is born on American soil to a citizen and an unauthorized immigrant spouse.

CRS also found that the bill technically requires illegal immigrants to obtain health insurance, but that’s hardly a benefit and certainly not a cost to taxpayers. In fact, under this interpretation, they could be fined if they fail to obtain it. This is because there is no language distinguishing legal from illegal immigrants in the category of "resident aliens," who are defined for purposes of federal income tax laws as those who have lived in the U.S. at least 31 days in the previous year and 183 days in the previous three years.

The House bill also contains no restrictions on undocumented immigrants buying insurance policies through the new Health Insurance Exchange if they are not already covered. However, they would have to buy it at their own expense, not with any subsidies paid for by taxpayers, just as they do now. In fact, millions of illegal immigrants have private health insurance now. As we”ve written before, about half of undocumented immigrants already have coverage, according to the nonpartisan Pew Hispanic Center (those who don’t have insurance are usually in jobs that don’t offer it). They receive no government funds for this and cost the taxpayers nothing – and that wouldn’t change under the proposed bill.

If the exchange includes a federal option, illegal immigrants could also participate under the current House bill. But again, this is a matter of paying for their own insurance out of pocket, not receiving taxpayer funds – the federal option is government-administered, but it is not government-subsidized except through the "affordability credits" that the bill says may not be paid to illegal immigrants.

Update, Sept. 12: White House offocials told reporters late on Sept 11 that the president now favors requiring require proof of citizenship before someone could purchase insurance through the exchange, MSNBC reported.

According to MSNBC, the White House issued the following "bullet points" outlining its position on the matter:


  • Undocumented immigrants would not be able to buy private insurance on the exchange. Those who are lawfully present in this country would be able to participate.


  • Undocumented immigrants would be able to buy insurance in the non-exchange private market, just as they do today. That market will shrink as the exchange takes hold, but it will still exist and will be subject to reforms such as the bans on pre-existing conditions and caps.


  • Verification will be required when purchasing health insurance on the exchange. One option is the SAVE program (Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements) which states currently use to make sure that undocumented immigrants don’t participate in safety-net programs for which they are ineligible.

The White House also stated that there would be no change in the present law which compensates hospitals for treating illegal immigrants in emergency rooms.

Posted by Jess Henig on Friday, September 11, 2009 at 5:24 pm http://factcheck.org/2009/09/immigrants-and-insurance/

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carl
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posted September 15, 2009 08:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for carl     Edit/Delete Message
It was funny to watch the brain dead, empty headed Nancy Pee-lousy jump to her feet and applaud each of O'Bomber's lies.

--------------------

Oh please. Politicians are professional liars. To become a politician, you have to be a liar, period. Left or right, wings on the same diseased bird.

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jwhop
Knowflake

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posted September 15, 2009 05:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message

What is it you don't understand about the difference between "credits" and "eligibility" to purchase health insurance acoustic?

Illegal aliens may not get government refunds of their health insurance premiums or tax credits but that's a different issue than "purchasing" health insurance under the O'Bomber government option.

carl, the minute you accept, excuse and overlook the lies of politicians is the minute you enable and empower them to lie.

Tuesday, September 15, 2009
10 More "You Lie" Moments On Health Care
by John Hawkins

The aftermath of Joe Wilson shouting out "You lie" at a shameless liar in the midst of a shameless lie about health care has turned out to be one of the most Orwellian moments in recent memory.

After Wilson's outburst, liberals, in and out of the mainstream media, rushed to tell us that it was Wilson, not Obama who was wrong. Why, there was simply no way that illegals would be covered!

But then, a funny thing happened: the Senate started working to close the loophole that Wilson pointed out. You know, the one that allowed illegal aliens to get coverage. Soon thereafter, the White House quietly followed the Senate's lead and started backing that provision.

Meanwhile, the liberal netroots, which had almost unanimously said Joe Wilson was the liar, started yelling at the top of their lungs that the bill shouldn't be changed to fix a problem they claimed didn't exist 24 hours earlier.

Unfortunately, this sort of deception has been the rule, not the exception in the Democrats' health care push. In fact, Barack Obama has sold health care by saying, in effect, "Anybody who has anything negative to say about health care reform is just spreading myths."

It's a shame that Barack Obama has chosen to go this way, because our health care system does desperately need to be reformed and conservatives would be very willing to work with the Democrats to do it. In fact, in a recent poll of 74 conservative bloggers, every single one of them said that they'd be "willing to support health care reform that primarily emphasized market based reforms." If Obama were to take that approach or even if he were to simply focus on helping the 8-10 million Americans who want health insurance but can't afford it, I suspect he'd have no trouble at all getting strong bipartisan support for a bill.

Instead, we're being fed a steady diet of deception by the very same politicians who are telling us to "trust them" while they take over 1/6th of the US economy. So, if there are any other Republicans in Congress who can take the heat, there are a lot of other lies about health care that still need to be addressed.

1) The President is working with Republicans: Obama has refused to meet with Republican leaders on health care since April.

2) Republicans haven't suggested a plan for health care: Republicans have actually submitted 35 plans.

3) The public option won't put the insurance industry out of business and lead to a government takeover of health care: Of course, it will. That's the whole purpose of putting it in the bill. Don't take my word for it, listen to Barney Frank explain it in his own words.
http://viralfootage.com/?p=2740

4) Medicare won't be cut to fund this health care bill: Actually, there are $500 billion in cuts to Medicare planned to help pay for this bill.

5) The health care plan won't add "one dime to our deficits either now or in the future." There is simply no bill that fits that description winding its way through Congress. According to the neutral Congressional Budget Office, the House bill adds $220 billion to the deficit over 10 years -- and even those numbers rely on very unlikely streams of revenue coming into the program. Moreover, the CBO only estimates numbers 10 years out. Over the long haul, all evidence points to costs skyrocketing into the stratosphere just as Social Security and Medicare have over time.

6) Preventative care will be required in these bills and it'll save money: Studies show that preventative care increases, not decreases costs. That's not only because of the cost of the tests, but because it leads to large numbers of people being treated for potential problems that would never end up coming to fruition.

7) Health care reform will help create more jobs: That's simply not true. According to the Natural Federation of Independent Businesses, this health care bill would wipe out 1.6 million jobs.

8) Abortion won't be covered under the bill: Unless the bill specifically says abortion isn't covered, it's covered by default. Abortion is not mentioned in the House bill and thus, is covered.

9) This bill won't lead to rationing of health care and people being denied life saving operations: Of course, it will. Barack Obama himself has even alluded to it with his famous, "Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller" quip. In nations like Canada and Britain, long waits for surgeries and people being denied proven life saving operations for financial reasons is commonplace. How can anyone believe that we're going to copy their system and not have the same result?

10) Obama's "Plan" doesn't have these problems you're talking about: Obama hasn't submitted any sort of plan to Congress. In other words, there is no special Obama plan. His only "plan" is to sign anything that Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi can push through Congress.

At the end of the day, there's only one question you need to ask yourself to decide whether you should support health care reform: Do you trust Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Barack Obama and the army of bureaucrats in DC enough to allow them to make life altering medical decisions for you and your children? If not, then it's time to stand up, speak out, and take action before this bill is passed and irrevocably changes our country.
www.townhall.com

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AcousticGod
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posted September 15, 2009 06:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
The only deception I see is from your corner, jwhop.

Stuff like this (following) is fascinating:

Obama's health prescription a problem for Dems

By DAVID ESPO, AP Special Correspondent David Espo, Ap Special Correspondent – 39 mins ago

WASHINGTON – Taken off guard, Democrats at work on health care legislation are grappling with President Barack Obama's nationally televised insistence on immediate access to insurance for those with pre-existing medical conditions, as well as richer Medicare prescription drug benefits than originally envisioned.

Additionally, Obama's pledge to hold the overall cost of legislation to about $900 billion over a decade has spread concern among House Democrats, who have long contemplated a costlier measure.

Yet another late complication, according to several Democrats, is the president's statement that he will not sign a bill "if it adds one dime to the deficit, now or in the future, period. And to prove that I'm serious, there will be a provision in this plan that requires us to come forward with more spending cuts if the savings we promised don't materialize."

The $900 billion target is "very difficult," Rep. Charlie Rangel, D-N.Y., chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, told reporters. "This is reducing coverage for poor and working people." He spoke of other "restrictions the president has given in his speech."

Obama outlined his conditions in last week's speech and an accompanying fact sheet posted on the White House Web Site as Democrats point toward votes in the House and Senate this fall.

After months of bipartisan negotiations, Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., chairman of the Finance Committee, told associates during the day he intends to unveil a detailed outline of legislation on Wednesday and convene the panel next week to vote on it.

Despite numerous gestures to Republicans, there were clear indications that Baucus had fallen short in his quest to assemble a coalition of senators from both parties behind his plan.

Baucus' proposal is certain to shun the liberals' call for the government to sell insurance, and rely instead on co-ops to offer coverage in competition with private industry. His approach includes a requirement for individuals to buy insurance, with financial penalties for those who don't. Rather than a mandate for larger businesses to provide coverage for employees, they would be required to defray the cost of any government subsidies their employees would qualify for.

"I fully expect Republican support coming out of committee," he said, but other Democrats said they believed Sen. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, would be the only one of the panel's 10 GOP members to vote for the package. Sens. Charles Grassley of Iowa and Mike Enzi of Wyoming have also been involved in the marathon negotiations, but both have raised late objections.

Liberals, too, expressed their unhappiness.

"The way it is now there is no way I can vote for the package," Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., said on a conference call with reporters.

Obama's decision to detail terms for health care legislation came after months of public deference to lawmakers.

Neither the bill making its way to the House floor nor two companion measures in the Senate included an interim program to assure coverage for consumers with pre-existing medical conditions. Instead, the bills would have waited until 2013, when numerous consumer protections are envisioned.

Sen. Kent Conrad, D-N.D., said the six-member bipartisan group of senators was working at the last minute to meet the president's request. Another official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said it involved creation of a high-risk insurance pool, beginning in 2010.

No details were available about costs, either to the consumer or the government.

In the House, a spokesman for the Ways and Means Committee said legislation does not include Obama's request for immediate availability of insurance for those with pre-existing medical conditions. But lawmakers "are currently drafting a provision for inclusion in the final bill," the spokesman, Matthew Beck, added in an e-mail.

Officials in both houses said fulfilling Obama's request on Medicare prescription drug benefits would be considerably more difficult, citing the cost.

The measure Baucus is expected to unveil would cut the so-called "doughnut hole" in half by 2019, but any additional benefit would have to come later, he told reporters.

In the House, Beck said draft legislation called for closing the gap in 15 years, "using drug manufacturer rebates to cover the cost."

Administration officials set the cost of closing the gap at $100 billion over a decade, about $30 billion of which would be picked up by the pharmaceutical industry as part of an agreement announced earlier in the year.

Nearly a week after Obama's speech, White House aides have not released key details of Obama's various other proposals, including their cost.

They have yet to explain, for example, whether his no-new-deficit pledge is limited to a one-year time frame, the 10-year period that lawmakers generally use, or a longer period that would greatly complicate efforts to pass legislation that meets his requirements.

Conrad, who is also chairman of the Senate Budget Committee, said he expected a Congressional Budget Office study would show the bill headed for the Finance Committee would reduce deficits over a 20-year period.

Leaders in both houses of Congress have pledged support for provisions that would lead to savings in Medicare over the long term. But as of yet, none of the bills in circulation includes the type of standby cuts that Obama mentioned in his speech last week.

_____

Associated Press Writers Erica Werner and Charles Babington contributed to this report. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090915/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_overhaul

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Node
Knowflake

Posts: 266
From: Nov. 11 2005
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 15, 2009 06:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Node     Edit/Delete Message
It didn't take too much picking at the scab Joe Wilson to find the Confederate flag waving racist.

His outburst was completely out of order.

I frankly think he ment to say: you lie "boy"

reading his history was not surprising, and I will not quote it here.

Silence to such an action is acceptance.

They [congress] just voted to reprimand him, and rightly so. Joe has his republican forbearer's to thank.

GOP-paved the way for reprimand----
----------------------------------------------If Rep. Joe Wilson is finding parliamentary procedure to be a bit of a nuisance in the wake of his “you lie” attack on President Barack Obama, he has his Republican forbearer's to thank.


On June 26, 1985, Rep. Robert Walker – a Pennsylvania Republican who beat the drum for decorum throughout his 20 years in the House – took issue with Rep. James Traficant for saying that then-President Ronald Reagan had deceived the senior citizens of the United States.


“Is it not a violation of the rules of the House to question the motives of the president and to refer to him as being someone who lies?” Walker asked on the floor.


“The gentleman is correct,” agreed then-Speaker Tip O’Neill . “It is not proper.”
______________________________________________________________cont:The prohibition on attacking the president’s integrity dates back to Thomas Jefferson’s Manual of Parliamentary Practice for the Use of the Senate of the United States, which he wrote in 1801. In 1909, the House made his proscriptions the explicit rules of decorum, and has put abridgements of his manual in a pamphlet titled, “Constitution, Jefferson's Manual, and Rules of the House of Representatives.”


It stipulates that: “Personal abuse, innuendo, or ridicule of the president, is not permitted. Under this standard it is not in order to call the president, or a presumptive major-party nominee for president, a ‘liar’ or accuse him of ‘lying.’ Indeed, any suggestion of mendacity is out of order.”


If Wilson has any doubts about the prohibition, he needs only goes back to June 6, 1996, when his current Republican colleague in the South Carolina delegation, Rep. Bob Inglis, was holding the gavel.

“The chair admonishes members not to refer to the president in terms personally offensive,” Inglis told the House that day.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27184.html#ixzz0RDV8oznM

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AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 1438
From: acousticgod@sbcglobal.net
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 15, 2009 06:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
Do you trust Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Barack Obama and the army of bureaucrats in DC enough to allow them to make life altering medical decisions for you and your children?

Stuff like this is utter nonsense. No one has ever suggested taking away the power of the people to make their own medical decisions, and I mean EVER. Everyone is completely FREE to stay away from any healthcare provided by the government.

It's going to be a boon for saavy insurance companies if any major health care reform is passed. They'll all be gunning for the anti-socialism business, and they'll surely get it if Baucus' fine plan goes through.

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Node
Knowflake

Posts: 266
From: Nov. 11 2005
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 15, 2009 06:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Node     Edit/Delete Message
Stuff like this is utter nonsense. No one has ever suggested taking away the power of the people to make their own medical decisions, and I mean EVER. Everyone is completely FREE to stay away from any healthcare provided by the government.

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 841
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 15, 2009 06:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
None of that is a problem on my end acoustic.

Barack Hussein O'Bomber is a liar from the top hair on his head to the soles of his feet.

Nothing O'Bomber says is credible. He's a bigger liar than Kommander Korruption.

O'Bomber is desperate to sign anything Reid and Pee-Lousy can get through the Congress.

52% of Americans oppose O'BomberCare and of those, a very high percentage strongly oppose O'Bomber on the issue.

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