posted July 22, 2013 11:48 PM            

It's the strong exploiting the weak - such has it always been.
In these instances, racism may be used as a justifying factor by some ("Arabs just can't live in a democracy - they need a strong hand," etc), but greed and a proclivity towards looking past the suffering of others (attributes found throughout humanity) are the motivating factors.

Edited to add: The above's said with it noted that across history, tribalism has been used to justify and explain exceptionalism and the "rightness" of one's existence.
Just look at how many ancient tongues called its speakers "humans" and others "non-human" (or some variation).
Hint: It's been a lot.
I'm not sure if I would call that racism per se, rather "ethnocentrism".

posted July 23, 2013 12:52 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Just one example of many.

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Better safe than sorry. Too many extremists out there.

I don't understand your point.

The places regardless still exist in peace which was my point in the first place.

In many countries, even other states u won't find that whether they are monitored or not.

There are a lot of Colombians where I live and there's a lot if monitoring too because many smuggle and sell drugs.

Stereotype statistics. Sad but true.

I'm half Colombian by the way and not offended.

Anything to keep my community safe.

When I was in college we had a discussion about chinese(where I live) being horrible drivers.

Someone actually got mad.

Someone else had to point out those are statistics.

I witness it everyday and yes they are horrible drivers...at least where I live.

That's life though.

But u can still exist together in peace.

I don't agree with war though that's for sure.

I am very anti war.

Don't expect me to bomb the White House or the nypd to prove it though.

posted July 23, 2013 01:01 AM            

People in the mosque reported him and he was arrested.

Any country has the right to monitor and find out if people are up to bad things.

Unfortunately it's stereotype statistics again. It's rare for Jews to preach hate in the name of Allah.

But there was a man arrested here a few years ago. A Jewish man who actually wanted to destroy a mosque.

posted July 23, 2013 04:58 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Do you live in a country with as much racial diversity as America has? Do you all deal with people of many different ethnic backgrounds on a day-to-day basis?

These are sincere questions.

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posted July 23, 2013 05:04 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
WWII was largely about race, with the self-styled "Aryan race" attacking Semitic Jews.

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no.......
and wikipedia is not a good source
maybe...that is what is taught about wwii in the usa: wwii = the holocaust and anti-semitism
wwii is more complex than that, the holocaust and anti-semitism being a byproduct, not the MAIN factor of wwii.

quote:

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But...what I meant was, would modern day Americans be willing to sign up for the military to invade and attack a predominantly white country?

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mm....if those white countries were poor and had resources that could benefit the dominant white countries, then of course they would be invaded!
and there are plenty of examples like this in european history

posted July 23, 2013 05:10 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Venusian Moon:

Where I live there is a mosque, Korean Methodist church, Catholic Church, Jewish synagogue, baptiste church, Jehovah's Witness temple, and a Buddhist temple. Literally within 5 blocks of each other. People get along.

Do u have that in ur country???

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i will add....
the USA is one of the few countries where i saw people of all kinds of backgrounds reaching success!
western europe is struggling with immigration and developing a diverse national identity...
asian countries: no comment
latin america: racist and classicist as hell....
african countries: same....

it was in the usa where i saw successful whites, blacks, latinos, asians, arabs....etc.
in some cases, if you work hard enough, you can succeed and if you have merit, people will support and respect you. i understood the reason it is often called the land of opportunities.

i mean, look at the diversity of the supreme court....it is incredible.

posted July 23, 2013 05:16 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by mockingbird:

It's the strong exploiting the weak - such has it always been.
In these instances, racism may be used as a justifying factor by some ("Arabs just can't live in a democracy - they need a strong hand," etc), but greed and a proclivity towards looking past the suffering of others (attributes found throughout humanity) are the motivating factors.

Edited to add: The above's said with it noted that across history, tribalism has been used to justify and explain exceptionalism and the "rightness" of one's existence.
Just look at how many ancient tongues called its speakers "humans" and others "non-human" (or some variation).
Hint: It's been a lot.
I'm not sure if I would call that racism per se, rather "ethnocentrism".

---

exactly.......
that is what i was trying to say....
that's the difficulty with these discussions....
because everything is race and race...and race....as if that's the only factor....
war is so much more complex than that, and anybody who reads and studies any type of history will see that.
i also agree with the use of ethnocentrism...
some folks seem to think that only racism exists, a person can be prejudiced but not necessarily racist though...and, ethnocentrism and nationalism are also other terms that can be taken into consideration and they do not have the same meaning.

posted July 23, 2013 05:23 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:

Maybe American racism is "illogical" because it's all kind of underground and hidden, not as overt as Asian animosities? So we are talking more about psychological suspicions (trying to "read" people in spite of their politically correct speech) than tangible hostility.

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i disagree, i find american racism very overt and imprudent, and, that people...are petty about it.
one example is the whining and crying that occurred when certain hunger game characters in the movie turned out to be black, when the book had already implied these characters were black....you see, they were the 'good characters'....
and, amazing that that was what made so many "white young women" cry.....
i mean, out of all things?
i think that there is this lack of prudence when it comes to racism in the usa.

in youtube videos, the folks who are more likely to have a debate on race, or insult a race...more often times than not, are americans....
maybe, it has nothing to do with racism and ethnocentrism but the stereotype that americans are loud....
i just see americans as being very 'racial'...seeing race in everything and anything, and having this foot in the mouth syndrome about it....

posted July 23, 2013 06:00 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hikoro:
mm....if those white countries were poor and had resources that could benefit the dominant white countries, then of course they would be invaded!
and there are plenty of examples like this in european history

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and also, in african history....!!!!
racism and ethnocentrism in africa exist too, and it has nothing to do with the europeans or whites....
there are groups in africa that detest each other since time immemorial....

posted July 23, 2013 06:54 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:

The Asians can't stand each other and just about slaughter each other at every chance. Put a Japanese, a Korean, a Chinese and a Vietnamese in a room (no not Americans) and you'll see no love lost. They just as well claw out each others' eyes.

The Chinese people are just about the most racist people in Earth. We call the motherland the Middle Kingdom for crying out loud. The whole world revolves around China. Everyone else is uncultured swine. If China can, it'll rule Earth and enslave everyone else.

Still think just the White European Ayran race is racist?

---

and....
nobody wants to talk about the modern day slavery practiced by middle easterners in the middle east and abroad,
enslaving specifically, eastern africans from somalia, eritrea, etc....

posted July 23, 2013 07:50 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hikoro:
because everything is race and race...and race....as if that's the only factor....

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hikoro,

I actually never said anything like that. I said that without racism, I think Americans would be less willing to fight in current wars.

I realize that the strong have been exploiting the weak. However, it's more than that. Regarding slavery, why are slaves typically another color than their masters? Why did Americans keep black slaves, instead of just shackling homeless drunks in the cities and carting them off to the plantations? You can read the literature back then and see why. Abraham Lincoln even believed blacks were biologically inferior.

And does anyone think that all of that just vanished when the Civil Rights Act was passed?

No...that's why I'm saying, racism has long and deep roots. Our country evolved through a racist paradigm and we can't just shake it off in a few generations.

As for WWII, I said it was "largely about" racism, not completely. I used wikipedia because it's handy. Why carp at me for that? Do you think my using wikipedia somehow negates the accuracy of the fact that the Nazis use Aryan race rhetoric? And why shouldn't I bring it up?

posted July 23, 2013 07:52 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by hikoro:
and....
nobody wants to talk about the modern day slavery practiced by middle easterners in the middle east and abroad,
enslaving specifically, eastern africans from somalia, eritrea, etc....

anybody do some research on the term abid/abeed/abd...an arabic derogatory term for slave and used mostly against blacks...

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Thanks, you are helping me prove my point that racism is still a huge problem. Not just in America.

posted July 23, 2013 07:59 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hikoro:
because everything is race and race...and race....as if that's the only factor....

I actually never said anything like that. I said that without racism, I think Americans would be less willing to fight in current wars.

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i disagree with this. without racism, humanity would use another excuse. we could be of the same skin color right now, and we would still find markers to distinguish each other and create a class system based on a hierarchy.

quote:

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I realize that the strong have been exploiting the weak. However, it's more than that. Regarding slavery, why are slaves typically another color than their masters? Why did Americans keep black slaves, instead of just shackling homeless drunks in the cities and carting them off to the plantations? You can read the literature back then and see why. Abraham Lincoln even believed blacks were biologically inferior.

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you should read on the irish and the english.

quote:

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I mean, you act as if I just made up a complete lie.

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no, it is just that i find you're seeing this as being a black vs. white issue..with the blacks or the brown people being the victimized and the ones in the receiving end.

and that is not the case. whites mistreat and enslaved each other, the same as the japanese, chinese, africans, etc.
seriously, study dahomey.....

yes, in western society, there is def. a hierarchy in place. but before the transatlantic slave trade, there were already wars and ethnocentrism and racism....in these "white countries"

posted July 23, 2013 08:07 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Thanks, you are helping me prove my point that racism is still a huge problem. Not just in America.

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still a huge problem, but i think that class and hierarchy are the main problem. it is the color of the green, that is, money.
my example was to illustrate the irony...
you had written about brown people in a victimized manner when some of these brown people would not give blacks their time of the day.....

and, there is still modern day slavery in some parts of africa, by blacks against blacks, long before the europeans arrived and, it is not better nor nicer than the transatlantic slave trade (as it was implied in that movie, amistad)
humanity is just...nasty.

now, am i stating that this makes racism in western civilization excusable? no?
but, it is a fallacy to assume that the hierarchy is always the white man on top with the non-whites in the bottom. though, im aware that many minorities in the USA, along with some whites seem to see things this way and universalize it.....but, outside of America (again, try to go beyond America) it is not always like that.

that is to say, Obama could be white, black, yellow, red or purple....he would be invading those countries regardless.

posted July 23, 2013 08:17 AM            

quote:

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I actually never said anything like that. I said that without racism, I think Americans would be less willing to fight in current wars.

---

You replied:

quote:

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i disagree with this. without racism, humanity would use another excuse. we could be of the same skin color right now, and we would still find markers to distinguish each other and create a class system based on a hierarchy.

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Disagree all you want, but in my comment, I was just talking about modern day Americans. Do I think Americans could be manipulated to go to war with England, Canada, or any other predominantly white country? Yes. But there would not be as much support.

quote:

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no, it is just that i find you're seeing this as being a black vs. white issue..with the blacks or the brown people being the victimized and the ones in the receiving end.

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They ARE on the receiving end. And again, where are whites on the receiving end of the kind of exploitation I mentioned (such as being forced to accept oppressive working conditions?) Where are brown people invading white nations nowadays and in contrast to that, where are white people invading brown nations? What's the ratio here?

quote:

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but, it is a fallacy to assume that the hierarchy is always the white man on top with the non-whites in the bottom. though, im aware that many minorities in the USA, along with some whites seem to see things this way and universalize it.....but, outside of America (again, try to go beyond America) it is not always like that.

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So please tell me where the whites are on the bottom with the non-whites above.

posted July 23, 2013 08:27 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hikoro:

that is to say, Obama could be white, black, yellow, red or purple....he would be invading those countries regardless.

---

Pixie phrased it better than I could:

quote:

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She was pointing out that Obama is a hypocrite for saying we need to wrestle with race while he acts on his own racism (or at least exploits it in others) for his own imperialist designs (or perhaps more accurate to say for his lobbyists and other special interests that he so shamelessly caters to, especially Raytheon).

---

posted July 23, 2013 09:36 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Disagree all you want, but in my comment, I was just talking about modern day Americans. Do I think Americans could be manipulated to go to war with England, Canada, or any other predominantly white country? Yes. But there would not be [i]as much support.

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of course there wouldnt be much support...
war is about the dominant against the weak.

quote:

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They ARE on the receiving end. And again, where are whites on the receiving end of the kind of exploitation I mentioned (such as being forced to accept oppressive working conditions?)

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allow me to clarify, what i meant to say is that you're coming from the viewpoint where it is always the non-whites who are in the receiving end based on the current actions of the US govt, and imo, you're just being too general here.
this is one of the reasons that some poor whites feel left out and angry, because some whites (esp. middle class and well-off) and non-whites make things look as if the non-whites are always and the only victims, and these poor whites, or white trash...are set aside, they are practically invisible.
there are plenty of whites in horrible working conditions being mistreated too, there are whites who are also being affected by these wars too. there are whites who are discriminated and mistreated when they are minorities and dis-empowered.

is it the same ratio? no...but, i dont dare to say that one race suffers more than the other...
i dare not dismiss someone's suffering just because they happen to be white.
that is like believing that a white child who hasnt eaten in two days is "luckier" than a non-white child who hasnt eaten in two days.

or, are you telling me that systematic racism only exists when the white person is on top?

classism and racism is not something that affects only non-whites

quote:

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Where are brown people invading white nations nowadays and in contrast to that, where are white people invading brown nations? What's the ratio here?

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have you ever heard of the ottoman empire, by the way?

you're the one who brought war as being a race issue.....and you're implying
that because today, it is mostly white majority countries versus non-white countries, then...it is by default, racism, specifically, white against non-whites....

you are dismissing that throughout history, people have been waging war regardless of race and ethnicity.
other members, including i, have written about war being more of a human problem and a societal issue...

if a western african country wages war against a western european country....would you then declare that this african country is racist against whites? is that truly what you're saying?

you don't see that the art of war goes beyond the amount of melanin we have in our skin?
we will always wage wars until the day humanity ceases to exist.

the USA is an empire. that is the way empires are built.
the yoruba enslaved and waged wars against neighboring tribes
the roman empire was the same....it expanded by waging war against others...

posted July 23, 2013 09:56 AM            

Still, this debate is unfolding sloppily, so we are getting no further ahead with the details.

quote:

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or, are you telling me that systematic racism only exists when the white person is on top?

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Not at all, I just asked you for examples of all these places where whites are CURRENTLY, in the PRESENT, being oppressed and exploited by non-whites? You say it's happening a lot...so please tell me where, because I am not seeing it.

quote:

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Me: "Where are brown people invading white nations nowadays and in contrast to that, where are white people invading brown nations? What's the ratio here?"

You: "have you ever heard of the ottoman empire, by the way?"

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Why are you not answering my question? If it's such an obvious point, the answer should be right at the tip of your tongue.

quote:

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you are dismissing that throughout history, people have been waging war regardless of race and ethnicity.

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No I'm not. I am talking about racism through time and throughout the globe, and how it has affected the current state of affairs, that is my interest here. I'd have to be a total idiot to forget all the wars where race was not an issue. But I also want to say that many recent situations of conquest that involved people of two different races hardly qualify as wars because one side (usually whites) had overwhelming technological superiority. It was only a matter of time before the Native Americans fell prey to English machinery...and also the English cruelty driving it, a specific cruelty that is a manifestation of racism.

This could all change very suddenly. I think it's plausible that within my lifetime, the power will shift very dramatically to Asia. It already is shifting, but it's not impacting American lifestyles too negatively and obviously just yet.

posted July 23, 2013 12:29 PM            

Don't watch the PBS special - it really dumbs down the information.

posted July 23, 2013 02:48 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
I think you may be offended by what I said about whites oppressing non-whites and in that case, I apologize.

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im not offended at all. im a minority within a minority myself and ive lived and traveled in non-western societies and non-western societies....
you see, i rather see the different sides of the issue. you came with a black versus white mentality, both figuratively and metaphorically.

quote:

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Not at all, I just asked you for examples of all these places where whites are CURRENTLY, in the PRESENT, being oppressed and exploited by non-whites? You say it's happening a lot...so please tell me where, because I am not seeing it.

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mmm.....you put cliche words into my mouth...as in, the cliche arguments of those folks who cry in the internet that many whites are being oppressed, just like men who scream that they are being oppressed.
you read my post like that when i never wrote that, i even specifically said that the ratio is not the same...but, you read what you wanted to read.

recap, you were the one who implied it was only non-whites who are in the receiving end and talked about oppressed worked conditions for non-whites, as if only non-whites are impacted. again, the black versus white mentality...
i wrote...'but there are whites who are being affected to"
is this clear now?

and...if you've not seen whites working in oppressed working conditions or being exploited when they are minorities...then i dont know what to say.

only because you don't see it, it doesnt mean it doesnt exist...and, you live in north america, correct? talk to more folks then, if not, travel more....instead of projecting the way things work around you to the rest of us.
you cant generalize for everybody else like that.

im surprised, i lived in the USA for years, and saw examples.

now, i do think racism exists...
but, you are the one who over and over again makes race as being the biggest and main factor in these current wars....
you dismissed other variables such as classism, politics, expansionism, neoimperialism, etc.
again and again, you got stuck with a tunnel vision of 'race'..(which americans, regardless of skin color tend to subscribe to)...
instead of considering the interconnection of several variables and the way that history has evolved...and even so, how leaders of these majority non-white countries work with the majority white countries in order to exploit their own people.

with that said, guns, germs and steel is a great book because it considers different theories and variables....beyond 'race and racism'. in other words, history and human society is complex.

posted July 23, 2013 04:08 PM            

I get depressed to see such non thinking by most people.

Blessings, Friend

------------------
Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted July 23, 2013 04:38 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
I don't think war is an "art."

YES I think the wars are racist and especially Obama's incessant drone bombing of Pakistan and Afghanistan. He's targeting a race.

I think the IMF is racist. It keeps poor, colored people in debt to richer nations, because it can.

I think corporate America is racist. Think of how often colored people are working in slave conditions for the sake of the white market: sweat shops, grueling factory labor, poverty conditions for farmers, child slave labor in cocoa plantations...and how often do white people have to work for people of color in those conditions?

Yeah, it all goes back to racism as far as I'm concerned. The deep, old roots of the modern establishments are still alive.

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If you really want to debate her on this then describe sweat shops where whites are slaving away (the UK, Canada, etc count). What also seems acceptable (as it would be keeping with her actual point) is where the US drug war sends forth vicious military assets that bomb and shoot innocent poppy farmers in Columbia but not the UK (where people don't even need a license to grow it) in a way that would make Americans destroyed by the drug war suddenly realize they got off light. Or show how white people are tortured, sodomized, etc, at US taxpayer expense for "having the wrong last name" as has happened to plenty of others (all brown as far as I know, and the one exception I can think of was especially hated as if he were a Benedict Arnold...or possibly race traitor). Don't just put words into her mouth that she never said and debate that instead.