posted February 02, 2016 10:55 AM            

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It's true that I found your opinion very discriminating

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posted February 02, 2016 10:58 AM            

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Why falling in the trap of policy who teaches you to fear certain people?

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Who said I feared "certain people"?

I was talking about the NUMBER of people coming into Germany, a socialist country that has to provide for allllllllll those people.

And the cultural clash has been serious.

posted February 02, 2016 11:27 AM            

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Originally posted by Faith:
If Germany has always had open borders, why couldn't my family have moved there?

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i don't know why you didn't get visas. I was talking about real border controls. Have you ever tried to enter Germany via Denmark, poland, Austria, France, etc? If so, you would have noticed that there has never been a border control.

posted February 02, 2016 11:31 AM            

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
I think when we are taught to hate and fear certain people, from a certain culture, race, religion, we are lied to. We are being manipulated to serve very specific purposes.

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I don't hate anyone. I don't even use that word in my life, when I talk about people. It's never "I hate....." I don't think that way.

I'm actually the only person I know who habitually makes conversations awkward by pointing out how atrocious US drone bombings in the Middle East are, and how I cannot see Obama in a positive light, because these bombings persist under his leadership. AND I point out how Christians are often remote-controlling those drones from their cowardly command centers in Nevada.

But I don't hate Obama, nor the Christians...I hate the confusion, and the horror of it all.

And I have been vocally speaking out against these wars almost from the beginning, when I first understood the agenda. So for someone to tell me I am discriminating against the very people I've been fighting for, and socially taking a "hit" for, as virtually no one I've met around here even understands why I am so vehemently anti-war and protective of people in faraway countries.....that is a complete misunderstanding of my basic position.

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
He saved me. Part of the Muslim culture is also to have a high reverence for women. This is the other side of the coin.

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That's great and I have many happy memories of conversations with various Muslims I've known, including my Muslim Pakastani friend Akbar, and some lovely Tunisian men who kept my sister and I company when we missed our flight and had to camp out overnight in the airport in Paris.

Also, my three Turkish roommates were all Muslim, and their male friends were perfectly polite to me. It's not like I don't know, or have lived a sheltered life. I haven't.

I feel that perhaps you are discriminating against me, because I'm an American? I'm not supposed to know these things?

I'm not blaming the religion, but certain cultural factors have arisen so that thousands of men thought it was okay to go to Germany and conspire to attack women there.

Seeing what happened doesn't make me a hater. I resent anyone pinning that on me.

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
There are no nations or religions of rapists or terrorists, just a bunch of people who teach the others so, for their selfish interests.

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But there is an increased likelihood of certain crimes in certain populations. How do you prevent the crimes if you refuse to acknowledge what is more likely to happen?

Women have been endangered in the situation in Germany, more than anyone else.

posted February 02, 2016 11:35 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Enneline:
i don't know why you didn't get visas. I was talking about real border controls. Have you ever tried to enter Germany via Denmark, poland, Austria, France, etc? If so, you would have noticed that there has never been a border control.

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I'm saying, letting people into the country as travellers is one thing. And no, I don't think I needed a visa to enter Germany. I came by train from Amsterdam.

But, being open to making them citizens is another. And that's where the border control issue becomes a point of debate.

I doubt it would have been possible for my family to obtain citizenship in Germany.

posted February 02, 2016 11:40 AM            

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Originally posted by Faith:
And if Merkel didn't invite the migrants, why did their numbers skyrocket??

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I already tried to explain this (sorry no native speaker) "1. Merkel did not invite anyone. The “rumour” or “ misunderstanding” has been created by a little note of the foreign department that Syrian refugees will not be send back to the European country they first entered. This was meant to ease the tons of work the employees of that department faced. This gave a lot of hope for all the refugees who were stucked in Hungary, etc. They requested to be allowed to walk to Germany and Hungary and the other countries were relieved that they would leave their countries. That is the true story. I don’t get why everyone abroad thinks that the German government invited them. This is plain wrong, actually a lie."

Normally the syrian and iraqi refugees would have been forced to stay resp send back to that European country they first entered according to Dublin-agreement; in like 95% those countries would have been Turkey, Greece, Italy, Spain, etc. This didn't stop the refugees to come to us, since the situation in the camps of Greece, Italy, Turkey, etc. is simply devastating. But according to Dublin Germany would have been forced to send them back but they realized that there were just too many.
So they decided to let them stay. https://twitter.com/BAMF_Dialog/status/636138495468285952
A very complicated German sentence, but basically they are saying that at that point of time, they will not follow the Dublin rules for Syrian refugees.
This message was a huge relief for those refugees living on the streets in Hungary, Italy, etc. They knew they could come to Germany without risking to be sent back (for a period of time as indicated in that tweet).
Basically there was no real invitation.

posted February 02, 2016 11:42 AM            

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Originally posted by Faith:

But now, there are many, many new citizens. I call that "open borders"....not sure what the proper term is.

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NO, they are no citizens, they are refugees. They are just allowed to stay in here for 1-3 years.

posted February 02, 2016 11:48 AM            

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Originally posted by Faith:

I was talking about the NUMBER of people coming into Germany, a socialist country that has to provide for allllllllll those people.

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yes, it will cost us many billions of EURs. This will be hard to handle. I am not sugarcoating this. At one point of time we need to close all borders, i am pretty sure of it.

But nonetheless; it's okay to spend 450 billions for financial institutions but not for human beings who are threatened by war & IS?

Also, for many many years it was okay to spend 600 million EUR a year for foreigners of European countries who were living in Germany and needed social help but it's not okay to provide desperate help for those who are persecutated due to their religions? See Yazidis...

posted February 02, 2016 12:05 PM            

Why are Western countries that tight in taking in refugees?

posted February 02, 2016 12:08 PM            

If there are politicians in America speaking against receiving refugees, in America or elsewhere, you should laugh in their faces and remind them where they come from and ask them to wear a hypocrisy sign.

I am also saying we are ALL refugees, my family, your family, and practically this entire board.

I am also saying we ALL have to receive refugees, if they knock at our door, no matter who they are where they come from, no matter the consequences.

This is my position and this is where we clash as political opinions, in a debate on a forum.

But this doesn't mean I assume about you that you are hateful or what you say, I don't believe that about you, I think your comparison invites to discrimination, it seems to matter in your speech that the refugees are Muslim, and this is discrimination, my own mother fears Muslims, and I fight with her all the time, from my position she is making a mistake to fear or discriminate any kind of people; she is still my mother though.

I know it is a delicate matter to speak "against" a friend on a forum, or let's say to debate with them, in contradiction, but I was very hurt by your message. I am sorry if I upset you in any way, though, and I hope you know this.

But I think you should also take a look at the implications of your opinions, what they lead to, what they promote, what the path they open is, even if your intentions are good, as I know.

I think there are little chances the mass attacks in Germany are a result of a "cultural clash". They are premeditated and concerted. It doesn't mean there aren't cultural differences, but they will become the benefit of migration, in the long run. To use a parallel, the many cultural differences and the richness of cultures in the US is what makes the US. The same in Europe now, where there is cosmopolitanism in almost every European country. There have been sacrifices and adjustments along the way, but this is a real gain of the times we live in.

Besides, the culture and religion of a refugee do NOT matter.

posted February 02, 2016 12:27 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Enneline:
I don’t get why everyone abroad thinks that the German government invited them. This is plain wrong, actually a lie."

Normally the syrian and iraqi refugees would have been forced to stay resp send back to that European country they first entered according to Dublin-agreement; in like 95% those countries would have been Turkey, Greece, Italy, Spain, etc. This didn't stop the refugees to come to us, since the situation in the camps of Greece, Italy, Turkey, etc. is simply devastating. But according to Dublin Germany would have been forced to send them back but they realized that there were just too many.
So they decided to let them stay. https://twitter.com/BAMF_Dialog/status/636138495468285952

A very complicated German sentence, but basically they are saying that at that point of time, they will not follow the Dublin rules for Syrian refugees.
This message was a huge relief for those refugees living on the streets in Hungary, Italy, etc. They knew they could come to Germany without risking to be sent back (for a period of time as indicated in that tweet).
Basically there was no real invitation.

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But it's tantamount to an invitation if you say, you will let them stay, isn't it?

If I publicly say that I won't turn strangers out of my house, it's an invitation of sorts.

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Originally posted by Enneline:
I really don't mean to hurt you, Faith but this lie has been widely spread by the right wing partys in Germany, I am sorry.

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I don't see where the "lie" comes in.

Germany did something that caused increased numbers of people to go there. Right? So people look for a way to describe the original thing that happened, that prompted this, and some call it an "invitation," not meaning to sound right-wing in the slightest bit.

Whatever you call that -- an invitation, or a position of passiveness, or refusal to block and fight -- whatever the name is, there was a deliberate move by Germany that had a predictable and intended result of bringing in larger numbers of people than before.

quote:

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Originally posted by Enneline:
NO, they are no citizens, they are refugees. They are just allowed to stay in here for 1-3 years.

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Then what?

quote:

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Originally posted by Enneline:
At one point of time we need to close all borders, i am pretty sure of it.

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That was my point from the beginning.

Why do I get in so much trouble for saying that?

quote:

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Originally posted by Enneline:
But nonetheless; it's okay to spend 450 billions for financial institutions but not for human beings who are threatened by war & IS?

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I never said or even hinted that, so please don't frame the question as if it's a response to something I said.

The whole situation is so complex...all I do know is what I've already stated:

posted February 02, 2016 12:45 PM            

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
I am saying that Americans commenting against migration and refugees find themselves in an ingrate position,

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I never said one thing against refugees, in general.

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
If there are politicians in America speaking against receiving refugees, in America or elsewhere, you should laugh in their faces and remind them where they come from and ask them to wear a hypocrisy sign.

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No one said anything against receiving refugees. However, putting out a message that is being received as "We'll take care of you, come here" and then only being able to supply crime-ridden shelters in grocery store parking lots, because you are overextended and refusing to admit there is crime in your shelters in the first place...well, that is problematic.

I"m looking at the details, not the generalities, of migration in Germany, in its current state.

EDIT: My apologies, I know that not ALL the refugess centers in Germany are overrun with problems. It appears that Germany has done the absolute maximum that is humanly possibly to make this right.

But there is a problem of being overextended, which has caused, and will cause, serious issues in housing. There is only so much that is humanly possible.

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
I am also saying we ALL have to receive refugees, if they knock at our door, no matter who they are where they come from, no matter the consequences.

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I think there is a place for discernment and anticipating and preventing problems, both for the migrants and the people receiving them.

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
This is my position and this is where we clash as political opinions, in a debate on a forum.

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I guess.

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
But this doesn't mean I assume about you that you are hateful or what you say, I don't believe that about you, I think your comparison invites to discrimination, it seems to matter in your speech that the refugees are Muslim

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Where did you get that idea? Please show me the quote.

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
...and this is discrimination, my own mother fears Muslims, and I fight with her all the time, from my position she is making a mistake to fear or discriminate any kind of people; she is still my mother though.

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Please do NOT make me out to be an Islamophobe of any kind.

I have fought Ami and other Islamophobes tooth and nail here.

NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
I know it is a delicate matter to speak "against" a friend on a forum, or let's say to debate with them, in contradiction, but I was very hurt by your message. I am sorry if I upset you in any way, though, and I hope you know this.

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I think you read my message presumptuously, you jumped to conclusions and wouldn't give me the benefit of the doubt.

How often are you hurt because you do that to other people?

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
I think there are little chances the mass attacks in Germany are a result of a "cultural clash".

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What are they then? What are your words?

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Besides, the culture and religion of a refugee do NOT matter.

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If it's a woman-hating microculture it certainly matters.

After all, you get upset at bigotry against Muslims. Would you like your city to receive a tremendous influx of people who think ill of Muslims?

Or would you say, "Let's not consider them Muslim-haters" even if they congregating in groups of a thousand and attacked Muslims?

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
I should have found a better way to answer, since it's you, and you matter to me more than my political views. You are right about this, I was wrong and I am sorry.

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I deleted my original contention with you because I didn't want to get into this.

posted February 02, 2016 12:51 PM            

1. an invitation is an invitation
2. they were just talking about a period of time
3. they said it's only for Syrians, not for hundreds of thousands of Albans, Somali and eritreans and Iragis and Afghans. I think the part of Syrians is like 30% only. (numbers vary)
4. they never said that they left Dublin
5. the other EU countries couldn't bear the situation any longer and Germany is part of the European Union. Unlike East European countries who take with arms wide open but refuse to give a little f*ck*ng finger, Germany gives a lot.

Furthermore, a citizen gets all the civil rights and all the social service and is allowed to stay forever. A refugee will not at all receive all of those performances. Hahaha...this is why i just laugh at right wing guys who claim that refugees are being pampered like there's no tomorrow while Germans don't get anything. Hahahaha
Yeah, Germans don't get Harz 4 (more money than any refugees gets), housing benefits, care allowance and pension and etc.

Also, we have a lot of space. East Germany is like "empty". Its ridiculous to say we can't take millions of refugees due to lack of space. Such a big country and they already start to fear conditions like in a public bath

Oh, i should have added that i don't mean you, Faith when using the "you".

The lie is in using what the migration department did, for the increase of fear and anxieties. They would say like "Merkel invited anyone" and of course people would start thinking "OMG, we can't take 60 millions refugees". I mean it's a big difference between saying "come to my country" than saying what the migration department said. Not being exact and detailed when forming opinions about the refugee crisis can lead to harmful results, This is called "Propaganda" Like you said: it is very complicated

posted February 02, 2016 01:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Enneline:
Unlike East European countries who take with arms wide open but refuse to give a little f*ck*ng finger, Germany gives a lot.

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Yes, Germany gives a lot and keeps giving.

There are potential problems in that, and some problems already manifesting.

quote:

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Originally posted by Enneline:
Furthermore, a citizen gets all the civil rights and all the social service and is allowed to stay forever. A refugee will not at all receive all of those performances. Hahaha...this is why i just laugh at right wing guys who claim that refugees are being pampered like there's no tomorrow while Germans don't get anything. Hahahaha
Yeah, Germans don't get Harz 4 (more money than any refugees gets), housing benefits, care allowance and pension and etc.

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Thanks for answering my question somewhat.

But why does everything turn into a digression against right-wingers?

I'm just curious about the process.

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Originally posted by Enneline:
Its ridiculous to say we can't take millions of refugees due to lack of space. Such a big country and they already start to fear conditions like in a public bath

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So you're saying the housing situation is fine? That is not my impression of it. It takes more than space.

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Originally posted by Enneline:
Again, i didn't mean to attack you faith; i was just generally mourning

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posted February 02, 2016 01:16 PM            

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
. I was hurt because calling refugees a "disease"

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I didn't call them a disease. But they have a problem, an illness so to speak, and are being cared for as doctors tend to patients.

Is it disgraceful to be a patient?

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
.And no, Muslims or Syrians or whoever you are referring to are not a woman-hating micro-culture. There is no such a micro-culture.

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There are no woman haters forming a SUBGROUP of that culture then?

Who attacked those women on New Year's Eve, then?

posted February 02, 2016 01:20 PM            

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If the premise was that Germany ought to just adopt everyone in the world who is suffering, or else Germany is evil...people would say, "That's ludicrous, of course Germany cannot handle such a burden."

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posted February 02, 2016 01:39 PM            

There are a lot of stories of women being harassed by newcomers in Germany.

There are a lot of women living as inferiors to men, in their cultures.

These things are true.

posted February 02, 2016 01:44 PM            

But the attacks in Germany were not genuine, IMO, as I keep saying. It looks like an organized act with the specific purpose to spread fear, which serves the purpose of those who usually want this. That's why I was trying to say it's not a good idea to play their game.
It could have been a genuine gang, but it is unlikely a true refugee who spent days and months on the road, in famine and cold, with their families dying, arriving in the host country will attack the very hand that feeds him, their future, it's impractical and highly unlikely.

posted February 02, 2016 02:06 PM            

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It could have been a genuine gang, but it is unlikely a true refugee who spent days and months on the road, in famine and cold, with their families dying, arriving in the host country will attack the very hand that feeds him, their future, it's impractical and highly unlikely.

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Eyewitnesses called them foreignors and I suppose it doesn't matter how they got there, it's part of the whole entire issue that is plaguing Germany.

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But the attacks in Germany were not genuine, IMO, as I keep saying.

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I'm curious...on what grounds do you say that...what evidence is there to counter the testimony of eyewitnesses?

Do you think someone hired all these people to commit that crime?

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There is no inherent hatred/disrespect of women, just strict rules (which are known to drive people nuts) combined with being a little behind in modern mentalities about equal rights for both genders. But they are catching up.

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I guess we disagree, as I find it disrespectful to subjugate women and keep them more like pets that you treat well than fellow human beings...Within the context of certain cultures, women are about equal with cattle. That's not good enough for me, much as I respect cattle, that's not good enough.

You say they are integrating and evolving ~ let's hope so. I know many HAVE evolved and many devolve, that is true for all cultures and our attendant problems.

I'm the first in line to want to believe in the potential of human beings to have a spiritual awakening, on a broad scale. But I guess that is my Pisces moon talking, while my Cap sun wants to insist on tending to the realities of the situation, with as much vigilance as possible.

posted February 02, 2016 02:27 PM            

I don't know what you mean about the eye witnesses, I never denied the attacks in Germany, I just said how logically unlikely it is to genuinely attack the hand that feeds you, it's against human nature and practicality. So I believe the attacks were planned by a terrorist organization or a right wing, with the specific purpose to spread fear and stop or prevent Germany's refugee policy. But they will not succeed, eventually.

There is however another interesting phenomenon, if we assume the attacks were spontaneous (which I am sure they weren't): a high stress release. Eli Wiesel wrote in the Night how the first thought and reaction of prisoners released from Buchenwald was to go out there, steal potatoes and rape local women, a quote that was changed by him and re-translated in the French version, but apparently present in the Yiddish version. A shocking quote for which some people contest his Nobel prize. But in fact, this is a rather natural response, sadly but true. NOT to be understood I condone what the German attackers did, what Wiesel said or whatever they did back then. Just explaining the psychological mechanisms behind such an act.
That would be an explanation if this were a spontaneous act, combined to what I said above. I am saying this as an attempt to explain why someone would do something like the attackers did, in the spontaneous hypothesis.

posted February 02, 2016 02:54 PM            

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You don't help people change with despising their culture

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I don't despise any culture.

For instance, I go to Indian restaurants, am friendly with Indians, watch Bollywood movies, follow Ayurvedic dietary principles.... and objectively take note of the way misogyny works in India. For instance there is a custom in Bollywood movies for the male lead to hit the female lead at some point.

There is the danger of rape in America, on different grounds. It's different here. There isn't wife burning here, like you have in India. But you are more likely to get held at gunpoint, have something slipped in your drink, date raped, etc. It's a different situation here.

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I never denied the attacks in Germany, I just said how logically unlikely it is to genuinely attack the hand that feeds you, it's against human nature and practicality.

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I still don't get what you are saying.

You're saying the women who named their attackers were also just part of the conspiracy, and lying?

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Why do you think they did those attacks?

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posted February 02, 2016 03:17 PM            

What they did, such an attack, is not just an attack on the host people, but also an attack on their people, the mass of refugees, which were already in a vulnerable position, and now facing fear and hostility from their host. That's what extremists and right wings do, it's typical for them to undermine or use their own people. Who would do that to their own and themselves, as a "spontaneous" mass attack? No one, but these people.

posted February 02, 2016 03:35 PM            

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By "why?" I meant their reason. I was asking what you think their reason was.

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It's strange..."reason" for mass rape?

Can there be a reason?

I tend to reserve the word reason for thoughts and motivations that are ethical.

But anyway...I supposed that they did it because they were disgusted with German women and wanted to intimidate them into covering up more, staying in their homes, behaving more like subjugated women.

I say this because it would fit the pattern of harassment, which has not been TOO prevalent, but apparent in isolated incidents that made news headlines.

I'm not claiming to be the expert on those attacks. Just saying, whatever caused them ought to be studied, and used to develop strategies for the prevention of future attacks.