posted February 02, 2016 09:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Faith, we are talking about frightened people who left their homes into the unknown, walked for thousands of miles in precarious conditions, for months, saw their friends and family die, were attacked by police on the way, and finally found a safe heaven in Germany where their first thought is to teach German women a lesson by raping them, endangering their newly found safety. Sorry, this is not what I know of human nature, and also I see here a caricatured image of the Muslim male, resulting from fear propaganda. My compassion goes to the German people and the refugees, both now are in terror because of these deliberate acts. The more closed the borders, the more terrorists we get. Terrorists are everywhere if and when they want to, the only way to make them disappear is love, peace, education and integration. The people who did those rapes they do it precisely for fights like this, like between us. This conversation is getting too distressing for me, please forgive me, I have to stop here.

---

posted February 03, 2016 02:15 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by peony:
LeeLoo, so true. Thank you for your light and wisdom.

---

So you agree that refugees are incapable of being interested in "teaching women a lesson"?

I wonder what exactly is happening, since media outlets report about mayors of some German towns taking heat for encouraging women to basically accomodate these men, by dressing more modestly, keeping them at arm's length, respecting their norms, and basically yielding to their control mechanisms.

I hate to see women being asked to be cowed like that...and granted, I've only seen small signs of this...but how is anyone supposed to not be upset? And why call someone racist if they are just upset about the whole problem?

Being a migrant doesn't change one's essential nature...if I had to flee to a country where women are more subjugated, yes I would probably try and challenge that right away. I wouldn't say, "I'll trade my belief system for food and protection."

posted February 03, 2016 03:24 PM            

If SOME people from a group do something, that does not mean ALL people in the same group are guilty...

If SOME Germans are upset and have resorted to violence because of the migrant issue, that doesn't mean ALL Germans who have concerns are violent or racist...

If SOME migrants sexually harass women (which is a consistent report from female migrants in these camps) that does not mean ALL are rapists or backwards. And talking about the problem, which is the first step to fixing it, does not mean, you are racist.

Amnesty International has petitioned leaders, calling them to task for their negligence in handling female migrants' needs and concerns.

Is it some kind of inverse hate to mention this?

Then, are we somehow subconsciously exalting our concern for men over our concern for women?

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/03/world/europe/on-pe rilous-migrant-trail-women-often-become-prey-to-sexual-abuse.html?_r=0

This is from one month ago:

quote:

---

BERLIN — One Syrian woman who joined the stream of migrants to Germany was forced to pay down her husband’s debt to smugglers by making herself available for sex along the way. Another was beaten unconscious by a Hungarian prison guard after refusing his advances.

A third, a former makeup artist, dressed as a boy and stopped washing to ward off the men in her group of refugees. Now in an emergency shelter in Berlin, she still sleeps in her clothes and, like several women here, pushes a cupboard in front of her door at night.

“There is no lock or key or anything,” said Esraa al-Horani, the makeup artist and one of the few women here not afraid to give her name. She has been lucky, Ms. Horani said: “I’ve only been beaten and robbed.”

---

Why aren't women in women-only shelters?

I know it's hard enough to find shelter for everyone...but segregating by gender seems like it should have been top priority from the beginning, if the problem was comprehended.

quote:

---

Interviews with dozens of migrants, social workers and psychologists caring for traumatized new arrivals across Germany suggest that the current mass migration has been accompanied by a surge of violence against women. From forced marriages and sex trafficking to domestic abuse, women report violence from fellow refugees, smugglers, male family members and even European police officers. There are no reliable statistics for sexual and other abuse of female refugees.

---

Why not? What social dynamics are responsible for that?

quote:

---

Susanne Höhne, the lead psychotherapist at a center in west Berlin specializing in treating traumatized female migrants, says that almost all of the 44 women in her care — some barely adults, some over 60 — have experienced sexual violence.

---

Bold mine.

posted February 03, 2016 04:25 PM            

quote:

---

Even in the relative safety of Germany, an asylum system struggling with the logistics of accommodating close to one million migrants in 2015 has been cutting corners when it comes to basic protections for women, like lockable bedrooms.

“The priority has been to avoid homelessness,” said Ms. Rabe, the German expert on gender-based violence. “But an environment that inadvertently facilitates violence is a risk factor. We cannot allow standards to slip.”

That is easier said than done, said Jan Schebaum, who manages two homes for asylum seekers in east Berlin. There are two bathrooms per floor, and the rooms are full.

One of the homes he runs is the emergency shelter where Ms. Horani, the makeup artist, stays. Of 120 adults there, most are Syrian and Afghan, and 80 are men.

“The women are in the shadow of the men,” Mr. Schebaum said. “Their voices are drowned out, and it’s a problem.”

At the food counter, where volunteers hand out hot soup and fresh fruit, the women are often last in line. They stay in their rooms a lot and rarely sign up for activities advertised on the notice board, like museum visits or concerts. One Syrian woman has not left the building since arriving two months ago because her husband, who has not yet arrived in Germany, prohibited her from doing so.

In the laundry room, stories of domestic abuse circulate in hushed conversations among the women. There is a violently jealous husband on the fourth floor who has beaten his wife. There is a woman who has been beaten by her husband because they cannot have children. A couple of months ago, two Afghan men harassed an Afghan girl with lewd comments and pushed her off her bike before others intervened, a volunteer at the shelter said. But few incidents of violence are reported.

...

“I did not leave them out of my sight for one minute,” she said in Arabic, speaking through an interpreter. She and other single mothers slept in shifts along the way, watching over their daughters and one another.

But in Izmir, Turkey, about to board a boat to Greece, Samar was robbed and left with no money to pay the smuggler. A stocky man who called himself Omar, he offered to take her for free, but only if she had sex with him. Samar had heard him before, at night, in the hostel where she and other refugee women were staying, “going to this room and that.”

“Everybody knows there are two ways of paying the smugglers,” she said. “With money or with your body.”

But she refused, and Omar became angry. That night he burst into Samar’s room, threatening her and her daughters before her screaming chased him away. Samar stayed in Turkey for almost a year to work and save up the 4,000 euros needed for the remainder of the journey.

Sitting with her youngest daughter curled on her lap, Samar concluded: “Almost all men in the world are bad.”

Across town, in west Berlin, Ms. Höhne sympathized, but had a more nuanced view. There are no easy solutions, she said. Female-only shelters are not an option because most families want to stay together. Some women rely on men for protection. And, she added, “We mustn’t forget many of the men are traumatized, too.”

“There is no black and white, good and evil,” she said. “If we want to help the women, we need to help the men, too.”

---

I just don't see how female-only centers are not offered as a basic protection...or, at the very least, locks on all rooms.

Not saying all men are bad, but I can see why that woman thought so.

posted February 03, 2016 06:02 PM            

Faith, I hope you are no longer upset with me it's just a debate.

Yes, but none of these can be an argument against people migration or openly receiving refugees, I think no such argument is possible.

What does civilization mean? What defines it?

A lesson now Germany is teaching the world, so far, along with other countries, but leading as example.

"A general view of a shelter for migrants inside a hangar of the former Tempelhof airport in Berlin, Germany"

and the other leading example
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/24/greek-islanders-to-be-nominated-nob el-peace-prize

The Lesvos grannies and the refugee baby

Asking local women to wear something else is unacceptable as solution, so is any kind of segregation, gender or otherwise.

The solution is educating people, with good universal values we all carry inside, the modern version. And also, this great chance to teach and integrate diversity, on all sides. This crisis is a huge chance for this. How else do you merge and forge and make peace between the two worlds, the past and the future, a multi-cultural future yet living like a modern organism?

This is an example of a step, controversial because it implies a possible stigma, yet we can take it as an invitation to explore and respect the host population and modern European values, which is normal for anyone who wants to be a guest in an European "house"
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants -a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html

More interesting stories
http://storify.com/Refugees/good-samaritans

Yes, refugees are usually poor, and poverty is often associated with needing to catch up with education on many levels, at least when it comes to the values of their place of refuge.

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free."

Statue of Liberty, Emma Lazarus, New York City

posted February 03, 2016 08:21 PM            

So it's clear, I am not AGAINST taking in refugees, I admire Germany for what it's done...just some aspects of the whole situation make me very uneasy, and hoping nothing is hampered by people being afraid to discuss the cold, hard facts of the situation...such as the danger faced by women.

Onwards and upwards

posted February 04, 2016 05:12 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:

---

But why does everything turn into a digression against right-wingers?

I'm just curious about the process.
-> Because Europeans esp Germany and some Scandinavian countries are like traumatized by the right wings + are just fed up with their hate speech.
For example, they would say that a mass of ungrateful refugees did rape women. As a matter of fact they have not raped but molested women. I am not saying this is less harmful but it's a Deformation of Facts. Also, those men are just like 0.0003% of all refugees + often they are not refugees but criminal migrants + a lot of German-Turkish and German-Arab men did defend those women. And this is not the only Point. Like mentioned, right-wings Keep telling that refugees receive a lot of Money or as much as tax-paying Germans but this is not true as already mentioned.
But spreading false facts by right-wings, just increase the fear and the anxieties.
It's always the same old game. Some facts are just deformed or exaggerated and this leads to further discrimination, a never ending cycle. So often we are just busy Clearing the false Facts spread by right-wings instead of taking care of the real Problem. It's just irritating and exhausting + some (stupid) People believe them and we don't want another Nazi Party in the parliament

posted February 04, 2016 05:30 AM            

Of course some are backwards or hostile or whatever, but the majority does know how to behave well and are just different, often actually quite German. This doesn't mean that Western women are prey for them but this is what right-wings and hostile Western & jewish People want us to believe.

For example: Sweden is supposed to be the rape capital of Europe caused by muslim immigrants.

As a matter of fact, the Swedish Police is NOT allowed to note the ethnicity let out the Skin colour of perpretators. Most Muslims there have already received the Swedish citizenship. So how can they know that it were men from the Middle East?!
+ the Swedish law also lists several sexual assaults as rape. Other countries don't do that
+ if a woman tells the Police that she has been abused by her husband every day for the last 6 months, the Police counts as follows: 1 rape x 30 days x 6 = 180 rapes. Other countries would just note 1 rape

posted February 04, 2016 08:13 AM            

I'd get fed up with hate speech, too. And with the deformation of facts...

Trouble is, how can we even know what the facts are? The media has its own biases. In trying to learn about what's happening in Europe, I've had to ignore countless reports of violence from "alternative" news sites. But it leaves the question in my mind: are they all just fabricated stories by right-wing propagandists? Or are women simply being ignored, because in some ways we remain second-class citizens?

In the media, it appears to boil down mainly to a clash between women and migrants. That is the theme. Is it all perpetuated by fiction?...Or are women actually being silenced, because to allow their crimes to come to light would exacerbate the problem?

Is it okay to cover up sexual assault when it happens, with a longer-term goal of integrating people? How can we understand the statistics, if even gathering statistics would be considered fundamentally suspicious, hateful, and based on racism?

So many problems stand in the way of simply understanding the nature of what is happening. The deterioration of the quality of investigative journalism really becomes painful at times like this, and I have to admit, there are so many online news outlets, it's hard to tell which is credible.

But here's an article that by all outward appearances seems objective, non-hateful, but highlighting what's actually happening:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-o nly-germany-that-covers-up-mass-sex-attacks-by-migrant-men-swedens-record-is-shameful/

And it's almost like a war when the people fight back...like a civil war. Who can even claim the moral high ground?

posted February 04, 2016 08:38 AM            

quote:

---

The trouble was that they were trying to deal with a problem but would not speak its name. As Peter Ågren, police chief in central Stockholm, put it: ‘Sometimes we do not dare to say how things really are because we believe it will play into the hands of the Sweden Democrats.’ As we now know, police officers in Stockholm are instructed not to reveal the ethnicity or nationality of any suspects lest they be accused of racism.

The Sweden Democrats are the anti-immigration populist force in Sweden — no longer a fringe element but the third–largest party after the election of 2014. Opinion polls suggest they are growing ever stronger. They are reviled by all other parties, who try to fight them by rejecting their every claim as baseless. As a result, immigration cannot be discussed frankly in Sweden. If you mention anything negative about refugees or immigration, you’re accused of playing into the hands of the reviled far-right. As a result, even legitimate concerns are silenced or labelled xenophobic. The recent migration crisis has changed this only slightly.

When a country cannot hold honest debates, there are consequences. Take Roger Ticoalu, director of events at Stockholm City Council. He said he had been utterly unaware of the risk of such attacks:

‘It was a modus operandi that we had never seen before: large groups of young men who surround girls and molest them.’

The German police made a similar point: they are used to handling drunks. But gangs of young men encircling and then groping women at large public gatherings: who has ever heard of such a thing?

In the Arab world, it’s something of a phenomenon. It has a name: ‘Taharrush gamea’. Sometimes the girls are teased and have their veils torn off by gangs of young men; sometimes it escalates into rape. Five years ago, this form of attack was the subject of an award-winning Egyptian film, 678. Instances of young men surrounding and attacking girls were reported throughout the Arab Spring protests in Cairo in 2011 and 2012. Lara Logan, a CNN journalist covering the fall of Hosni Mubarak, was raped in Tahrir Square. Taharrush gamea is a modern evil, and it’s being imported into Europe. Our authorities ought to be aware of it.

But they can’t be made aware, when any mention of the issue is discouraged. This leaves the police unprepared, and leaves the public feeling not just vulnerable but deceived.

---

Another article from last month:

BBC: Swedish police probe 'cover-up of migrant sex assaults'

Quote:

quote:

---

The organisers of the festival, which is held outdoors at Kungstradgarden Square in central Stockholm, told the newspaper that there had been cases of sexual harassment every year, but that beginning in 2014 groups of boys and young men began to work the crowds together.

---

I don't mean to spread fear, judge, or distort any facts. Just saying, where there is a problem, we need to find a way to discuss it.

And I admit I am probably more concerned about the women, because I can put myself in their shoes and think of how terrifying gang rape or gang molestation would be. And I guess it's natural for me to try and defend people...especially when I feel like I'm being told not to...I wonder, "Is EVERYONE being told that it's wrong and racist to try and protect the women??" Imagine being a woman who got raped, trying to tell your story, and being told you are just a liar Nazi? And nobody will honor your story?

The backlash is horrifying, too....gangs roaming around and beating on innocent migrants...

I just happen to linger longer on the plight of women, especially when we're being told that it is somehow morally wrong to even speak of their troubles. It is "hateful" to say the women have problems.

posted February 04, 2016 08:44 AM            

quote:

---

Taharrush jamai (Arabic: تحرش جماعي‎; taḥarrush jamāʿī; lit: collective harassment) is the sexual assault of women in public by large groups of men.[n 1] The phenomenon has been noted in Egypt since 2005.[n 2] The term gained prominence in January 2016, incorrectly transliterated as taharrush gamea, following its use in a German government report into sexual assaults in Germany on New Year's Eve.[4]

Typically acting under the protective cover of large gatherings, assailants encircle a woman, while outer rings of men may form to deter rescuers. The attackers may pretend to be rescuers, adding to the confusion. Women in Egypt, who call it the "circle of hell," have reported being groped, stripped, beaten, bitten, raped and robbed.[2]:38–41[n 3]

Mass sexual assault has played a controversial role in Egyptian politics.[6][7] From 2005 Egyptian security forces were blamed for using sexual assault as a weapon against female participants during political protests in Tahrir Square, Cairo.[8] The behavior spread, and by 2012 sexual assault by crowds of young men was regularly seen at protests and religious festivals in Egypt. Commentators say the attacks reflect a misogynist ideology that blames women for leaving the house, seeks to terrorize them out of public life, and views sexual violence as a source of shame for the victim, not the attacker.[9]:4–8

---

Worth reading the full article.

Gang rape of epic proportions, and yeah, I would call that full-blown rape:

quote:

---

Separated from her friends by the crowd, or out alone, the woman finds herself encircled by a large group of men who grope her breasts, genitals and buttocks. Attempts are made to pull or cut her clothes off, and her body is pulled in different directions as men move her through the crowd. Women regularly report digital penetration of the vagina and anus. Attackers have used sticks, knives and blades, and in several cases sharp objects have been inserted into the victim's vagina.

---

And, this stems from a cultural problem of epic proportions.

quote:

---

According to a 2008 survey by the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights, 83 per cent of Egyptian women said they had experienced sexual harassment, as did 98 percent of women from overseas while in Egypt.[31]:16 The first jail sentence in Egypt for sexual harassment came in 2008 after a man molested a woman in the street from his car.[32] Following this, two films – Scheherazade, Tell Me a Story (Yousry Nasrallah, 2009) and 678 (Muhammad Diyab, 2010) – brought the issue of taharrush to cinemas.[12]:26

---

Not saying all Egyptians are rapists, NOT EVEN IMPLYING IT, but the ones who are, must rape ***a lot*** and mostly without consequence.

posted February 04, 2016 06:58 PM            

Enneline, great observation about the repeated "rape" word in the media, at least the part with certain...intentions. For someone who doesn't know, reading it repeatedly gives the impression there was a series of mass rapes. But maybe it's best, in the case of molestation, and in this case, to put the chariot ahead of the horses, so to speak. This doesn't change the fact it's a great observation.

Let's stop beating around the bush, for some people, the real problem is where these people come from: Syria, and their religion/culture. If the refugees were Swiss, the approach would have been different. And this is the painful problem.

To me it is important, both for the refugees and the locals, to keep repeating in all possible ways it doesn't matter where these refugees come from, and not trying to motivate what they do wrong with their ethnicity or religion. They need to hear all the time that as long as they respect the law, work and are decent people, nobody cares what their religion and previous customs are, or where they come from. I think that's the only way to help people go beyond their cultural limitations, to just see them as human and they will behave accordingly. As for those who do have a problem these refugees come from Syria of all places, that's just between them and their conscience, it's a personal problem the world can't change for them.

Faith, this is true, ME is behind with these things, law, women rights etc. but I don't find this approach solving anything, at this point, discussing the issue like this to me leads to more molestation and rape, because it sounds as if someone is trying to say to or about the refugees: You're not welcome here! which is unacceptable, for most people. And always leading to more violence. It's OK to tell them, when problems arise, like now: look, you may be groping girls in your village during NYE, behind the bushes, or no one arrests you if you have forceful "sex" with your wife on Sunday in your luxury above the desert condo, but that's unacceptable here, in Mitte; you want to be here, you behave, like everyone else. And that's about it. It's about every citizen respecting the law, and not where that person comes from.

Bottom line, them coming to Europe only helps everyone in getting them in direct touch with a good model and learn something else.

It's abnormal, in the long run, to keep emphasizing the region and religion these people come from. There are just some people among them (or not) who broke the law, which is to be expected, and that's it.

Or the speech in the media, this part of media, the right wing, is actually thriving on the Cologne attacks, because they would have said anyway what they really want to say and now they can say it as a concern for women, but what they really want to say is: these people are Muslims, Arabs, and we are afraid of them and you should be too, send them back or stop receiving them.

Which can't be done, for the rest of the people, who have no "right" tendencies; it's the most unnatural speech; these people want the wall between ME and the Occident demolished, as a principle of integration and anti-discrimination they have in general, and also in this particular case, because they want terrorism to disappear, the retrograde old world to disappear (with Middle Ages behaviors, laws or concepts), and any extremism, and logic tells us this is how it's done, not with building walls, fear and avoidance. How else can this wall be demolished?

There is another group now terrorized of refugees integration and thriving off the sex attacks (which they most likely caused, at least the NYE ones), and generally terrorized this wall is falling due to this millions of people migration:

- terrorists: losing their main weapon (terror), manner of recruitment, adepts. Who's gonna listen to them when they go yadda yadda the Occident hates us, with millions of adept material living happily in the West? and the massive cultural exchange there will be? and Germans soon understanding Arabic? People don't care about burkas in the first place, that's just a propaganda slogan, they care about a good life, freedom, their children going to school, seeing the world etc. They don't hate the west way of life, they love it; that's why they wanted in Germany. All those going on and on about Arabs hating the free way of life don't know now what to say next, a speech of years and years going down the toilet now, so they made up the ridiculous caliphate thing

- weapon traffickers/ builders - no terrorists and militias, no people to terrorize to turn into terrorists, no business.

- and the real big fish here: creators of profiteering wars, the fellows of the above fellows. Everyone sipping Frappes in Zakynthos or drinking wine on Nikolai, and then soon everyone peacefully taking a trip to buy some 55% laurel Aleppo soap, to visit the family of our new friends; that's the utmost terror, where's our next war gonna be?

Sorry for the (much better than working at this late hour) rant

posted February 05, 2016 11:04 AM            

Single sex quarters are the boarding school solution and probably not practical for several reasons. But in boarding school its not rape but cooperation tgs t is at issue.

I am convinced that the time has come (actually overdue) for women especially to stop seeing ourselves as the defenseless choiceless flowers we - in the West as well - have been taught to be. ***** Posse has arrived 😉

posted February 05, 2016 11:51 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Catalina:
Why in this day and age are women still being treated - and seen - as helpless targets of male aggression? I hardly think this is a Middle Eastern problem so I wonder why anyone is making political hay out of the German situstion.

---

Did you happen to notice the thread title?

Did you happen to read the comments at all?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Catalina:
I am convinced that the time has come (actually overdue) for women especially to stop seeing ourselves as the defenseless choiceless flowers we - in the West as well - have been taught to be.

---

What is the context for this statement?

edits rant

posted February 05, 2016 12:03 PM            

Again, I agree with most of what you are saying.

What becomes an issue is when people mention a problem and are stigmatized immediately for mentioning it.

There's an old slogan associated with GI Joe cartoons: And now you know. And knowing is half the battle.

So *discussion* IS important, but it has to be balanced and fair, not saturated with shrill accusations on both sides.

quote:

---

They need to hear all the time that as long as they respect the law, work and are decent people, nobody cares what their religion and previous customs are, or where they come from.

---

I see what you mean, but to the Germans, for now, they are honoring those customs, at least partially, here and there. I don't think there's a way to make a definitive statement about it.

In the article I posted above, the manager of a shelter called the police to arrest a man who was beating up his wife, only to have the wife scream at him for taking her husband away. So, his approach now is to not call the police.

At least in this transition phase, I guess women are going to have to keep getting beaten and oppressed...their whole family structure may demand it...they are so entrenched in "the old ways."

True, setting a good example is important, but there has to be some effort applied to eradicating the existing problems, so that suffering is not prolonged.

posted February 05, 2016 12:14 PM            

quote:

---

and the real big fish here: creators of profiteering wars, the fellows of the above fellows. Everyone sipping Frappes in Zakynthos or drinking wine on Nikolai, and then soon everyone peacefully taking a trip to buy some 55% laurel Aleppo soap, to visit the family of our new friends; that's the utmost terror, where's our next war gonna be?

---

Right

And there is the "chain of obedience" where people just go along with it.

posted February 05, 2016 02:23 PM            

What particularly bothers me, though, is when women and children are the victims, because they are weaker, and it's simply not a fair fight. Somehow there has to be a way to talk about it, take precautions, AND remain compassionate, non-violent, willing to help.

However my comment was not irrelevant despite the title of the thread but addressing this attitude ^^. Whether it is for cultural, psychological or other MENTAL CONSTRUCT reasons, women being beaten into submission is never going to be solved by the Authorities. Women have to learn to see themselves as fit to defend themselves. The article I posted was not about the Migrant Crisis, true. But the import still fits. Let women stand up for themselves and their own and the Aggressive Male problem evaporates.

posted February 05, 2016 04:27 PM            

quote:

---

Women have to learn to see themselves as fit to defend themselves.

---

In what way, in Egypt, in light of what I posted above, are women "fit to defend themselves"?

ETA: And what can anyone have to argue against granting migrant women the option of separate quarters from men, and locks on their rooms? It should be a priority to supply those defensive tools...they probably want that more than a bed or cupboard. I would.

They shouldn't HAVE to defend themselves, the system ought to protect them.

quote:

---

Very perceptive of you Faith. It's true I read only parts of the thread. These days I have other things to do than plow through pages upon pages .

---

Very sarcastic of you, Cata.

posted February 05, 2016 05:00 PM            

Seems kinda flippant and cruel to say that women SHOULD take that kind of stand.

Who would even teach them how to value themselves so much that they refuse to be subjugated and live as slaves...and they refuse to the point of being willing to die?

posted February 05, 2016 06:27 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Catalina:
I didn't notice any hatchet buried.perhaps it was Pluto that snapped at my daring to comment 😉.so I will bury it by disappearing. At Some point Women have to step Out of their cultural closets and stand up for themselves. Until they do men will continue to justify acting like dogs, as Islam, and most cultures, portray and justify their behavior. Overcrowding, displacement and stress of course bring out the worst in some but the authorities are not in position to protect everyone .. they are stretched just to shelter so many.

Done now, back to your preferred station

---