posted August 09, 2012 12:49 AM            

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
thats what infuriates me about this whole issue, us nice guys are painted as weak and not being assertive. funny thing is me and my sisters as*hole abusive husband got in a fight and i kicked his a**, but guys like him are alpha ? psshh i'm a nice guy but at the same time i dont take sh!t from anybody, and as you said i march to the beat of my own drummer and do my own thing.

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posted August 09, 2012 12:52 AM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
... And I must admit I also find it absurd to think someone who is a jerk won't be a jerk to you. If a guy treats others with contempt, I know it's only a matter of time before he treats me the same way. If a woman talks trash to me about everyone else then I know it's only a matter of time (maybe even only a few minutes...) before she's talking trash about me behind my back. This seems obvious and I know many measure people the same way I do.

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I like this, and generally i like your comments. I find them very on point and legit. But In theory its all nice... And The unevolved woman will go for the brutish meathead male... ive seen it time and time again with my gf's.

posted August 09, 2012 12:52 AM            

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Originally posted by Padre35:
From my pov AquaGuy, you should consider yourself fortunate that you have not found a young lady you thought you loved when as time goes by you realize..you don't.

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posted August 09, 2012 01:05 AM            

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Originally posted by Junethird:
The troll comparison made me laugh... But yes, Mr.Aqua is very assertive and holds his ground well. And that is an attractive quality.

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posted August 09, 2012 01:11 AM            

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
haha i just noticed that assertive begins with a**, good one junethird :P

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posted August 09, 2012 01:15 AM            

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
lol that hasn't been my problem

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posted August 09, 2012 02:24 AM            

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Originally posted by Padre35:
Do tell?

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posted August 09, 2012 02:57 AM            

But we all have both sides in us male or female, to varying degrees in each person of course… So really I think we would all be doing ourselves a huge favor by realizing that there is no such thing as the perfect image of a “nice guy” or “nice girl”. We are all human, we all have good and bad qualities and intentions sometimes. To think that men (or women) fall into one of two categories is ridiculous imo. By setting up these polarities we are creating a lose-lose situation for both sides. I’d much rather be with someone who treats me as an equal, even if that means him being honest about things I’d rather not hear about, than be with someone who treats me differently or “better”, but who I feel like I can’t be completely honest with for the fear of not living up to a certain image…

posted August 09, 2012 03:40 AM            

This guy will take you for a casual ride at 160 mph and get you sexed up for a couple of hours, which would then make me a jacka$$ because I would over do it and become too "un-nice.". Good grief.

I the non-jock will whip a football linebacker's ass to shreds. Most jocks sicken me. All show and no go. Fake brawn with zero intelligence. Bird brained bozos.

posted August 09, 2012 04:44 AM            

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Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
All those tough acting leather wearing Harley riding tobacco chewing idiots who act all macho and crap are probably mostly impotent and can't get their little weenies up.

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posted August 09, 2012 05:21 AM            

There are bad boys, "nice" guys, and gentlemen.

Bad boys are, as the name implies, 'bad'. They do not treat women right, but they have charm and charisma. They are exciting and adventurous, but they are rotten and best avoided. Unfortunately, that charisma pulls people to them.

"Nice" guys SUCK. They are very entitlement-minded and believe that a woman owes them affection, or like they deserve a cookie or something just because they do the bare minimum to not be a complete monster. They only care about getting laid or having a girl just to have one, not about actually having a relationship. They actually aren't truly kind at all. They believe in the made-up "friend zone". They believe that if they are kind to a woman, she owes them a date or should have romantic feelings for them. They consider her a bad person if she doesn't--or, at the very least, they find her refusal upsetting and unfair. They get angry with women who do not reciprocate their feelings and who do not want to go out with them. They don't truly appreciate or love women because they are not content to be friends with women. Women exist to them only as objects for their own needs. Her own needs and feelings are never considered. They delude themselves into thinking that they are "knights in shining armor". Rather than blame themselves, or see how they need to change, they keep stubbornly insisting that women "have it out for them" or that they are "not appreciated". They can be very stalker-ish and creepy. They are very passive-aggressive. They don't appreciate women for the people that they are, but rather see them as trophies or prizes to be won. If women try to explain this to them, they get extremely defensive and won't listen or change.

A woman NEVER owes a man anything, be it her heart, her body, her mind, or her time. Period.

"Gentlemen" are rare. They may like a woman, but if a woman says no, they respect the no, and continue being her friend without resentment because they honestly value her and they want her to be happy, even if not with them. They love women for who they are and not what they can get from them. They see women as real people and not as princesses on pedestals. They don't read a bunch of misogynistic crap and they don't spew it all over. They LISTEN to women and really get to know them. They are not passive like "nice" guys, nor are they "aggressive" like bad boys. They are assertive, and respect both themselves and others. They are kind, but have a backbone. They are masculine, but have empathy for and appreciate the feminine experience: not in a superficial way, and not from what men's magazines or male-geared sites tell them, and not stereotypes, but rather they, again, LISTEN to women and truly understand their point of view.

posted August 09, 2012 05:28 AM            

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"Gentlemen" are rare. They may like a woman, but if a woman says no, they respect the no, and continue being her friend without resentment because they honestly value her and they want her to be happy, even if not with them. They love women for who they are and not what they can get from them. They see women as real people and not as princesses on pedestals. They don't read a bunch of misogynistic crap and they don't spew it all over. They LISTEN to women and really get to know them. They are not passive like "nice" guys, nor are they "aggressive" like bad boys. They are assertive, and respect both themselves and others. They are kind, but have a backbone. They are masculine, but have empathy for and appreciate the feminine experience: not in a superficial way, and not from what men's magazines or male-geared sites tell them, and not stereotypes, but rather they, again, LISTEN to women and truly understand their point of view.

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posted August 09, 2012 05:32 AM            

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Originally posted by Hera:
Nice guys pretend to be nice until they have a hold on you, then they show you who they really are. Some are actually misogynists in disguise, some are actually very selfish, some develop a drinking problem or other addiction. Just because a guy seems nice, doesn't mean he really is or that he'll stay like that.

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AMEN TO THAT.

posted August 09, 2012 05:36 AM            

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Originally posted by ail221:
Most guys who go around saying their nice guys usually aren't they are perceiving that they think women are seeing them as which is usually not the same. [...]

Honestly some "nice guys" come off creepy because sometimes they focus too much of their drive trying to cater to a woman without actually asking what she wants. Then again "assumptions" are a flaw of both women and men.

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^^EXACTLY.

They don't see women as they truly exist. They see women as objects for their own needs, as prizes to be won, as something that they should get just for being nice--like a human cookie.

"Nice guys" almost never take an honest look at themselves. If you were to ask women who actually knew the "nice" guys, I'm sure you'd get an entirely different take on things. It would be like one of those movies where there are about six points of view, or like Faulkner's "As I Lay Dying".

posted August 09, 2012 05:41 AM            

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Originally posted by Padre35:
"Nice guys who think they're making their partner feel good by saying how much they love to listen to her talk, but never add anything to the conversation themselves. You're not making her feel good. You're boring her to death. Stop staring at her with your chin in your hand when you go out to eat. You give her the creeps. She is NOT an animal in a zoo. And it's not HER job to keep up the entire conversation. Her ego is NOT so fragile that she needs to be worshipped.

Nice guys who lie and think that a decision not to call them on their first lie means we're not going to dump them when they do it again. In other words: stupid guys.

Nice guys who make friends with us and then think we owe them something more than friendship.

Nice guys who have no hobbies except sitting around wishing they had a girlfriend like all those cool guys on THE REAL WORLD.

Nice guys who, upon getting a girlfriend, feel they "don't really deserve her". This is insulting. If you don't think you are worth something special, then what you are telling her is that SHE picked a loser.

Nice guys who put women on pedestals. By worshipping her, you objectify and demean her.

Nice guys who think they're the ONLY amateurs in the world at love, and that when a woman doesn't want to have anything to do with them, they're hateful, spiteful bitches who are experts at hurting poor, poor widdle innocent nice guys. Yep, we all read books on how to do it. All girls receive secret, expert instruction from their gym teachers, usually in 5th grade in most school districts, about the ins and outs of love, while the poor nice guys are left to fumble around with no clues.

Nice guys who are too STUPID to figure out any other way out of their so-called predicament except to conclude that they have to become woman-battering heavy drinkers and sports players.

Nice guys who want a beautiful, attractive woman, but do little to take care of their own appearance. We're not talking about being a muscle-bound creep, but fer crissakes get some exercise! Take up some kind of activity or hobby that gets you off your flabby butt. Walk or ride your bike to work; go for walks at lunch; use the stairs instead of the elevator.... Do a coupla situps in the morning before your shower. How can you have ANY stamina in lovemaking if you get out of breath climbing a couple of flights of stairs?

Nice guys who sit there passively waiting for life to happen to them, instead of actively pursing their goals and dreams."

From PixieJane's link..that is gold!

Personally I enjoy having female friends as they have such a different perspective on life and the world then my male friends.

BUT I make it clear where I'm coming from, if I'm interested in them, I'll point blank ask if they have a relationship going if they do that is the end of that, [...] also make it a habit to not hit on some poor women on the job as imo it is just taking advantage of them having to be nice as a part of their job.

That sort of crap disgusts me tbh..that to me IS creepy.

Thanks for the great replies Ladies of LL!

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AMEN HALLELUJAH!

Finally, someone who GETS IT!

posted August 09, 2012 08:24 AM            

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Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
All those tough acting leather wearing Harley riding tobacco chewing idiots who act all macho and crap are probably mostly impotent and can't get their little weenies up.

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posted August 09, 2012 10:43 AM            

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Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
There's this strange assumption that just because a guy is "nice" it is equated with being a push over. A "nice" guy has no possibility of being assertive or aggressive. A "nice" guy must be yielding and even submissive. What nonsense.

This guy will take you for a casual ride at 160 mph and get you sexed up for a couple of hours, which would then make me a jacka$$ because I would over do it and become too "un-nice.". Good grief.

I the non-jock will whip a football linebacker's ass to shreds. Most jocks sicken me. All show and no go. Fake brawn with zero intelligence. Bird brained bozos.

Aquaguy, why do you even bother? If they want, let them come to you. Otherwise, they aren't worth it and you're above that kind.

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Actually the most vapid, insipid, misogynistic dudes I've met are not jocks, they've been musicians.

Especially post High School.

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"nice" it is equated with being a push over. A "nice" guy has no possibility of being assertive or aggressive. A "nice" guy must be yielding and even submissive. What nonsense.

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A for the 160 mph stuff, what if she wants to go for a drive at 160 mph and have sex afterwards?

Why assumes that naturally no women would wish to do that? And as has been mentioned, even if that scenario is more then a metaphor, the issue with "nice guys" is the passive aggressive nature of being super nice, all the time. I think perhaps at the end of that line of thinking is a lack of self confidence and self effacy that what the "nice guy" wants should always be subverted for what the lady wants.

Some selfishness, straight forward selfishness, in a relationship is bound to happen, but when the nice guy buys roses and teddy bears weekly, when they do actually display that trait, it comes across as incongruent.

A good, and simple example of this is say the two have a dinner date, and the discussion of "where do you want to go to have some dinner" begins.

Nice Guy may want sushi, Nice Guy lacks the assertiveness to say so, the circular/passive aggressive "I don't know, where do you want to go eat" conversation begins.

posted August 09, 2012 10:47 AM            

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
the problem isn't that i think i love/ like someone only to find out i dont, its the reverse. When i like or love somebody my feelings wont change unless they hurt me in some way, while most people have no idea what they want and their emotions are very likely to flip flop from day to day. My feelings for someone dont change, if i meet a girl i like in the begining and she stays faithful to me and doesnt flake out then she will have me for a lifetime.

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Hmm, imo that sounds a bit like you love the idea of being in love, it is a two street if feelings are not reciprocated you are probably better off cutting ties and moving on.

Otherwise you just have a serious crush on someone who does not feel the same way, the old saw of you can't make someone love you is truth in my experience.

posted August 09, 2012 10:55 AM            

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
AMEN HALLELUJAH!

Finally, someone who GETS IT!

Thank you especially for the part about not hitting on women on the job. It happens to me, as does getting bothered in a lot of other places too, and I'm fed up with being told that I should just "take it as a compliment" or being called all kinds of nasty names when I walk away. Thank you for understanding how creepy, uncomfortable, and yes even threatening this is for a woman! Now go out and preach to your fellow guys on this one!!

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Don't misunderstand though, I will strike up a conversation with the help at places I frequent often, but specifically focus it on what they may have mentioned to me previously ie, take a genuine interest in them and their lives, but never take it to outright hitting on them. For example if they mentioned they were moving into a new apartment I'll ask if they finished moving and if they like the new place etc.

This is one of the reasons why Hooters just gives me the willies, it is sort of like a low pressure soft core strip club for middle aged suburban men to stalk younger women in..<shudder>

posted August 09, 2012 11:18 AM            

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Originally posted by Padre35:
Don't misunderstand though, I will strike up a conversation with the help at places I frequent often, but specifically focus it on what they may have mentioned to me previously ie, take a genuine interest in them and their lives, but never take it to outright hitting on them. For example if they mentioned they were moving into a new apartment I'll ask if they finished moving and if they like the new place etc.

This is one of the reasons why Hooters just gives me the willies, it is sort of like a low pressure soft core strip club for middle aged suburban men to stalk younger women in..<shudder>

And TBH RegardesPlatero, the kind of dude who do actually hit on women while they are working won't listen to anything I'd have to say, the way they see it is their one chance to speak to a women without the women just flat our rejecting them.

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True, they probably wouldn't listen. Maybe some who aren't too far gone yet. But hardcore "nice" guys, no, you're probably right.

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There is a HUGE difference, though, in the kinds of interactions that you describe, which are completely appropriate, and someone trying to hook up with a girl or date her.

posted August 09, 2012 11:32 AM            

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
True, they probably wouldn't listen. Maybe some who aren't too far gone yet. But hardcore "nice" guys, no, you're probably right.

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Well, tbh the kind of guys who do that sort of thing aren't really all that nice, in some ways all they are doing is trying to increase their perceived value in the men around them eyes.

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There is a HUGE difference, though, in the kinds of interactions that you describe, which are completely appropriate, and someone trying to hook up with a girl or date her.

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And women know the difference in my experience, but it is a two way street of information for her part I usually get my best advice from such chats from books to colors, there really is a wealth of information in such conversations.

I'd have to say the one thing that really surprised me from just chatting with the ladies where I hang out is how self conscious women can be...really surprising to me at least..but it is there, this sort of pressure to be perfect.