posted April 09, 2013 08:58 PM            

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So now all of a sudden men who ogle are creeps? because I'm fairly certain every straight man I have ever known ogles. Its amazing how much man bashing goes on on this forum yet sexism against men doesnt exist. But oh wait! I know this game... any hot man ogling is ok and any man caught ogling who the individual woman doesnt find attractive is automatically a creep.

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Ogling and looking are two different things.

I didnt realize I needed to point that out. I thought it was obvious.

You don't have to be a hot guy to catch a glimpse if you want to and I don't hear woman complaining about that kind of thing. Of course guys are said to be more visual and are going to take a look and it's natural etc. No one is saying close your eyes, no one expects anyone to do that.

posted April 09, 2013 09:02 PM            

Your level of exterior physical attractiveness does not matter whether you are taking a peek or not. It's how you do it.

So, to sum it up, we know guys will stare and that is usually okay and even sometimes welcomed, but some take it to another level. What's to hard to understand about that? You don't have to turn it into "only hot guys can stare at you and the rest of us are creeps" kind of thing. Because that's not how it is and it's not about that.

posted April 09, 2013 09:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
So now all of a sudden men who ogle are creeps? because I'm fairly certain every straight man I have ever known ogles. Its amazing how much man bashing goes on on this forum yet sexism against men doesnt exist. But oh wait! I know this game... any hot man ogling is ok and any man caught ogling who the individual woman doesnt find attractive is automatically a creep.

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There is a context AG, a sort of scale, involved.

I rarely ogle as to me, it gives ones' sort of person reserve away, and once again there are different contexts.

For example, out to be social and dressed somewhat revealing, men are supposed to "ogle", when one doesn't do what everyone else does it creates a difference

A different context would be say a female on the job who is not really dressed to reveal but to be pretty and gain more tips.

And believe me when I say, male bar employees do the same thing, I've chatted with enough of them.

Now what about a female who is say, at the laundry in sweats with a pony tail b/c they didn't feel like washing it until after they got their laundry done, that would be inappropriate ogling imo.

posted April 09, 2013 09:25 PM            

aquaguy, I understand what you're saying, but I want you to not excuse men for being creepy (which in this context means making women uncomfortable). People may be visual creatures, but people have brains they should use so they know what is appropriate and what isn't. Saying that men are visual creatures isn't an excuse for them ogling a woman and her feeling upset by it. Just saying.

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YoursTrulyAlways: Put the boys in dress slacks and blue blazers and ties, and give them all military style hair cuts. Put the girls in blouses and knee length skirts with no make up and tied up hair. You go to school to study, and not for a fashion show.

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posted April 09, 2013 09:33 PM            

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Originally posted by T:
I'm sorry to tell you that there are some extremely creepy guys out there ag. You can stick up for them all you want, but it doesnt change anything. And by creepy, I don't mean "ugly" or unnatractive as you seem to have mixed up.

Your level of exterior physical attractiveness does not matter whether you are taking a peek or not. It's how you do it

So, to sum it up, we know guys will stare and that is usually okay and even sometimes welcomed, but
some take it to another level. What's to hard to understand about that? You don't have to turn it into "only hot guys can stare at you and the rest of us are

creeps" kind of thing. Because that's not how it is and it's not about that.

Your attractiveness does not give you a free pass to "ogle" all you want. IMO anyway. In fact it can make an attractive person ugly.

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posted April 09, 2013 09:53 PM            

So, nothing to do with overt sexuality in the GIRLS, more about the boys' NEEDING PROTECTION from their own weakness...

And don't tell me girls don't have reactions to visuals. I was in school once too, and boys are JUST as distracting as girls. when i was in scbool girls were forbidden pants, it wasn't "ladylike" then miniskirts came in and a lot of schools had rulers to check how close to the knee your skirt was!

Meanwhile the boys were sitting sprawled in their seats showing off their "jewels"...

posted April 09, 2013 09:58 PM            

Kidding and old dude saying stuff aside.

I can see both points on this one, YTA's pov if, taken into how poorly the schools perform as a whole, is harsh but COULD be effective.

PixieJ and T's point about just crushing young teenaged (and pre teen) is singling them out as the source of a problem that is not really a problem.

My take is School Admin's have a lot of power and see everything in a binary manner and really have very little peer review of their decisions.

For example is there any evidence that such a policy actually accomplishes anything? Or is this merely a sort of top down thing that is half assed (for lack of a better term)?

I also think actual productive creativity is not developed in k-12 education in any deliberate way and that is the coin of the new economy realm so to speak.

posted April 09, 2013 10:02 PM            

quote:

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katatonic: So, nothing to do with overt sexuality in the GIRLS, more about the boys' NEEDING PROTECTION from their own weakness...

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posted April 09, 2013 10:11 PM            

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Originally posted by somethingexcellent:
There's lots wrong with the picture, which I could pick at, on many levels beyond just female oppression because of patriarchy, but I think most of it is obvious to us here.

aquaguy, I understand what you're saying, but I want you to not excuse men for being creepy (which in this context means making women uncomfortable). People may be visual creatures, but people have brains they should use so they know what is appropriate and what isn't. Saying that men are visual creatures isn't an excuse for them ogling a woman and her feeling upset by it. Just saying.

I do agree with this, though I think there should be a gender neutral uniform.

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posted April 09, 2013 10:21 PM            

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Originally posted by katatonic:
This dress code flap is NOT ABOUT LEWDLY DRESSED GIRLS IT IS ABOUT GIRLS IN PANTS.

So, nothing to do with overt sexuality in the GIRLS, more about the boys' NEEDING PROTECTION from their own weakness...

And don't tell me girls don't have reactions to visuals. I was in school once too, and boys are JUST as distracting as girls. when i was in scbool girls were forbidden pants, it wasn't "ladylike" then miniskirts came in and a lot of schools had rulers to check how close to the knee your skirt was!

Meanwhile the boys were sitting sprawled in their seats showing off their "jewels"...

I would be just as ticked if the rule was boys having to wear overalls, but we girls are expected to be above distraction by such things...it's called a BACKHAND compliment, ie dismissal thru false flattery

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No need to yell kat. The thread went slightly off topic. Happens a lot and usually for the good.

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And don't tell me girls don't have reactions to visuals. I was in school once too, and boys are JUST as distracting as girls

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Call me a lesbian, but I did not find that to be the case.

Maybe it had something to do with boys at that time beginning to wear their pants really low with huge oversized jerseys or sweatshirts that disguised their private area.

I didnt find myself distracted by tank tops and muscular arms either. Sure they could be nice to look at, but I'd not say I was distracted by them and could not concentrate on schoolwork or anything.

I admit that females can respond to visuals as well. I am someone who is very receptive to them, but don't get worked up or easily hot and bothered by them thru the opposite sex, or unable to focus or control myself. Their mind is more important and what I'm attracted to first. I guess that's where I differ from most males.

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when i was in scbool girls were forbidden pants, it wasn't "ladylike" then miniskirts came in and a lot of schools had rulers to check how close to the knee your skirt was!

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I remember that too.

I didnt wear them, but watched other girls get in trouble for breaking the measurement rule. I think most schools still have them.

quote:

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I would be just as ticked if the rule was boys having to wear overalls, but we girls are expected to be above distraction by such things...it's called a BACKHAND compliment, ie dismissal thru false flattery

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I'd not be ticked at that. I'd be pretty hilarious actually. lol I say throw a farmer's hat on them too!

No, really, overalls are like pants with a bib. So, not that much of a difference, except guys nowadays wouldnt be able to buckle them at their knees. .....they'd probably find a way to though.

posted April 09, 2013 10:31 PM            

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Well looking is what I meant T. I am not sticking up for legit creeps , I take issue with the word being used where its not warranted. I can litteraly not even look at a girl for 2 seconds without getting a middle finger or a dirty look Yet I see guys like my friend who can go up to women he doesnt know drunk off his *** and get touchy feely with them and the women like it! Yet I have been called a creep by women and i'm always polite to thm and have never done any of that. So you can understand why I get annoyed by all this stuff.

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You will probably notice that same kind of thing going on for the next number of years. Don't let it solidify your current bitterness into a hardened belief system (i know that can be hard for an aqua sun / tau moon - both fixed).

posted April 09, 2013 10:45 PM            

I'm sure, in your own way you can understand that, if you dig deep enough. It's a similar kind of monster to what you deal with.

posted April 09, 2013 10:45 PM            

If anything girls in my school were more likely than boys to have their heads turned...

And it goes even farther back...in grade school one day the school bully (and bigger and older than most of us) started on me one day, i don't even know what he said or was about to do but i gave him a shove which led to him falling into a rail and breaking a rib! The principal wanted to suspend me for being "unladylike" and if it hadn't been for my very ladylike mother giving him a piece of her mind he would have gotten away with it, even though this boy was known for bullying pretty much everyone.

That is another piece of the puzzle that spurs "feminists" but for me it was very empowering to discover how easy it is to fend off someone who doesn't expect resistance...and that is one of the reasons "feminism" is also about men...girls are not so defenseless unless they are taught to be..

posted April 09, 2013 11:15 PM            

Yes, I think every female goes through a number of experiences in her life to discover how to fend off certain people/situation. Usually early on and scattered throughout later as she grows older, and each one eventually finds what works best for them and how to handle things in the future. You brought to mind a few instances in my own life as an especially shy girl who had to protect herself from aggressive older boys in a school situation.

Until confronted with scary situations you can't learn how to properly deal with them in the future.

Luckly, for you and I, it has helped, made us stronger or more aware and not turned us into man hating "feminists" .

posted April 10, 2013 01:42 AM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
It gets worse than that. Many years ago a VP (and a woman, who I can't help but imagine as Dolores Umbridge) who got fired (only after the community was up in arms, and there were even threats of violence by angry parents before they put her on paid leave) because she was doing panty checks (and lifting their skirts in full view of everyone, including the boys, even their dates!). I was actually shocked when conservatives at the time rose up in her defense, but a surprising number of them apparently don't mind police state schools or having a skirt lifted up in full view of the boys over that, but then I suppose if it involves humiliating girls just for being girls then that's alright, that's what they think schools should be doing in the first place.

There used to be a "zero tolerance, zero intelligence" site that detailed all kinds of nonsense, much of it like that. But it went down a few years ago.

In many schools jocks are pretty much allowed to torment others terribly to the point that their victims suicide, but that kind of terrorism (the kind that makes many feel literally sick at the idea of going to school, and at least some suicide, far more suicides attributed to bullying happen every year than due to things like violence at school itself) is considered a "rite of passage." Still, that's bullying, but could it ever justify murder as "boys will be boys"?

Actually, yes, and in California, too. I can list a handful of links if you're interested (but as it's a derailment I don't plan to go into detail here), a 15-year-old gay boy was murdered at school in front of class, shot once in the back of the head and then again as he lay on the ground in full view of all the kids in class. The murderer also had some Nazi paraphernalia, IIRC (I know that got contested somehow by his legal defense and I don't recall the details). Thing is the murderer got off on the gay panic defense with the help of a professional psychiatrist hired by the defense, accepted by a jury, and was cheered by some fundamentalist Taliban, er Christians, blaming the murder on the fact that the victim killed was allowed to be openly gay, and therefore "boys will be boys and kill the gays (as God commands, and let that be a lesson to all the kids who saw the gory remains of a sodomite, praise Jesus)."

So yeah, we could go there, too.

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My its was not easy to read.
So sad people who are so willing to feed their stupidity are given the opportunity and the place.

I think stronger enforcment is in place there...on teachers and student both and a lot of attention put to making those kids human and not just school graduates.

posted April 10, 2013 01:48 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
So now all of a sudden men who ogle are creeps? because I'm fairly certain every straight man I have ever known ogles. Its amazing how much man bashing goes on on this forum yet sexism against men doesnt exist. But oh wait! I know this game... any hot man ogling is ok and any man caught ogling who the individual woman doesnt find attractive is automatically a creep.

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In practice it seems that you have said "woman should live in fear from being assulted from men and should repress their choice of wear into something that wont attract the man to assult them"

You gave no referance to the fact that man can be sexual targets too, you gave no referance to the fact that woman shouldnt life their lives in fear and be afraid lf being attractive since they can be assulted by men and that its "inevitable".

And you especially gave no referance to the fact men (and woman) are to be taught to control themselves and show respect for one another.

posted April 10, 2013 01:58 AM            

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Originally posted by katatonic:
...one man who tried to hit me broke his hand on my armbone when i blocked him! He was way bigger, and stronger, but i was just quick enough...

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Somebody has been taking their calcium supplements!

That's awesome. Bones like steel. I knew that story was going to end up with the guy wimpering that he was actually the victim. i'm glad he's out of your life now.

*

posted April 10, 2013 04:23 AM            

Reminds me of when a boy was goosing me right around my 13th birthday (I think I was just on the side of being 12 when it happened, but I'm not sure). I'd suffered insomnia and horrible nightmares so I wasn't in a good mood to begin with when a boy took to goosing me and he found my telling him to stop funny. While going up the stairs and him continuing to goose me I turned around at the landing half-way between floors and kicked him in the face which caused him to fall (all the other kids kept him from falling too hard, but they laughed loud & hard at him as he ended up falling all the way down the stairs). As for me I was just incredibly tired and wanting the day over with so as soon as I saw he was too busy falling to goose me anymore I continued up the stairs putting him out of my mind.

I guess it was about 5 minutes after class started that I got the summons to the office.

The principal scolded me and when he wouldn't listen to my side I finally yelled the boy I kicked wouldn't stop touching my butt no matter how much I told him to stop. He literally shrugged and said, "Boys will be boys."

"And girls will be girls," I replied.

posted April 10, 2013 07:29 AM            

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Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
I guess I'm the Benito Mussolini of school uniforms eh. Put the boys in dress slacks and blue blazers and ties, and give them all military style hair cuts. Put the girls in blouses and knee length skirts with no make up and tied up hair. You go to school to study, and not for a fashion show. I had to even wear academic gowns. Learn and get good grades or your butt gets wh00ped. Kids today lack discipline and respect.

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Oh wait, i lived in such times - known as "the communist period". In terms of dressing conduct - you would have fit perfectly in those times YTA. ^^

Here's a parody commercial, a bit exaggerated but not far from the reality of those times: -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5BsN9BKoFI

Communism ended when i was 6.5 years old - but i did caught some of that period and the "obligatory" dressing codes.

This was uniform was required for kindergarten:

- primary school:

- high school:

starting with minute 0:42 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcokoGjTpCQ - it's from a famous Romanian movie related to the high school period ^^

Those uniforms were part of a lesson in terms of "discipline" but also "oppression".

posted April 10, 2013 08:42 AM            

People who are new age think they are so cool and hip when they come out with socially ACCEPTED things. What personal risk is in that? Nothing.

The truly strong and courageous person is someone like Aquaguy who goes against the flow of what is accepted by the norm and the norm sucks right now

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