posted May 22, 2015 04:35 AM            

Can I ask though, it's a sincere question, what is your rational for all this negativity and conspiracy involving women? Where has it come from?

posted May 22, 2015 05:53 AM            

Personally, I don't see a prevalence of negativity towards women. That's why I'm interested/shocked by your perspective.

I think your preconception towards women make it hard for you to experience better interactions in the present. It's like a vicious circle. It must be tiring. Feeling like this will spill into other areas of your life.

posted May 22, 2015 06:53 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MarsSaturnDelight:
It's not only women that can be like that, men can be **** too, if not more; it's not gender specific. And I'm not sure many women of the younger generations actually know what feminism is and proactively learned about it. That's just an assumption on your part.

Personally, I don't see a prevalence of negativity towards women. That's why I'm interested/shocked by your perspective.

I think your preconception towards women make it hard for you to experience better interactions in the present. It's like a vicious circle. It must be tiring. Feeling like this will spill into other areas of your life.

There's so much to be experienced, and I feel you're restricted by this stance.

---

posted May 22, 2015 08:58 AM            

Upper/middle class Western people were considerably more polite in a public setting - a few decades ago (both male and female) but politeness is surface and mostly meaningless.
So yeah, maybe in the 1930s - the girl whose car you fixed would've smiled at you and batted her lashes (just to be polite) but that doesn't mean she would've liked you any more or less than she did, at present.

posted May 22, 2015 09:10 AM            

I've disagreed with you before on the subject of feminism, but I agree with you on the examples you've given here. This is pure misandry, and a corrupt and perverted version of what feminism should be about.

In fact, the very word 'feminism' is not accurate, since in its core this movement is about equality. Definitely not about one gender being superior to the other.

In Western countries, women have been oppressed in the past, and are still subjected to gender discrimination, though in a lighter form. But men are subjected to different types of discrimination and pressure as well. One gender denying the difficulties which the other gender has faced/ is facing, only fuels the argument without helping anyone. It's all superficial really, because if women really hated men that much, and men hated women that much, we would have gone extinct as a species long ago.

posted May 22, 2015 09:53 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aquaguy91:

I do not like feminism and the influence it has on women. I have noticed that women born pre-feminism are wonderful! They're almost always warm and kind to everyone...

---

Good grief, when do you think feminism began? I'm past my SECOND Saturn return and I can assure you it was in full swing 50+ years ago and it was not even something new then.

Feminism has absolutely nothing to do with whether someone is or is not warm and kind. Nor do all (or even most, in my experience) "old men" treat women with respect.

The prevalence of rape and violence toward women is real, also not new, and most definitely not made-up. As someone who was date-raped in an era before the concept was coined, and who didn't speak about it to another living soul for almost 20 years, I can assure you life is better for victims when it is something that can be discussed.

I don't know how to say this, other than bluntly: you are confusing correlation with causation and blaming women in general without understanding the concept or history of feminism.

posted May 22, 2015 09:56 AM            

From my perspective feminism was a movement that served its purpose and it no longer has a place in today's society. I'm grateful to feminism because I wouldn't have been able to study the things I'm passionate about, work, vote etc. in the pre-feminist era.

Feminism gave women a sense of freedom and a voice in a world where they were legally considered the property of their husbands.

However I can recognise when something has outlived its stay, and I believe the term - "feminism" - is beyond rescue. It's too loaded and too easily attacked by anyone who is uninformed. These constant attacks create much too much drama for the ideology behind the word (Drama that could be avoided!)

It's next to impossible to convince the general public that feminism is a theory about men and women (and equal rights) - when the term "feminism" itself suggests an ideology primarily concerned with women.

Next to no one in my generation wants to identify as feminist. Many women would see it as embarrassing to say it out loud and they believe it is something men would be scared of, or look down upon. So it would make them seem less attractive, if they identified as such - socially. Some feminists have very negative reactions to this... And they are appalled or angered by it. I don't think there is much point in reacting with anger and trying to hammer the feminism into these young women.

Basically, I don't think we should focus on rescuing the word. The word is all but dead.

But what we need to rescue is the positive ideology behind it. Not the hardcore, radical parts... but the parts that actually make sense and that would contribute to us having a more inclusive and discrimination-free society.
The positive parts of feminist ideology need to be re-packaged under a new name. And the radical parts need to be discarded. There are different strands of feminism but each has its more moderate, and its more radical proponents.

posted May 22, 2015 10:54 AM            

And I loved the book Lost Horizon by James Hilton, talking about Shangri-La, and its idealist vision of gender-respectful society. One line from that book has always stuck with me:

"Her beauty, like all beauty in the world, was at the mercy of those who could not appreciate it."

Now if you look at the condition of the material world today, if you consider who is doing what, you'll see that it's a man's world.

And by that I mean, the men literally built it. Architects, car designers, car manufacturers, civil engineers, construction workers, miners, computer manufacturers...anything having to do with hard, lasting materials like metal, stone, concrete ....this is mostly done by men.

^ Or did you expect to see women up there?

Granted, the impetus comes also from women, and we gals enjoy living in the First World and are not complaining. We can be totally wasteful; I'm not saying women are all born environmentally aware and responsible. But the actual work is done mostly by men. Society's infrastructure reflects the male brain.

So what would happen if the men stopped working? What would a woman's world look like? Would we have this same desire to completely overhaul the landscape? I doubt it...but that's besides the point.

My point is more like this:

With that in mind, you see there is an inherent imbalance in society, where the society plays out on a stage that reflects millenia of accumulated male thinking and male work, without an equal regard for the thinking of women. And along those lines, I can see how one would think that we are all born into a world shaped by misogyny.

Western religions, especially, have always been deeply misogynistic.

Notice the phallic symbols?

I'm only half-kidding.

The revival of Fundamentalism and its patriarchical bent has had a very serious and depressing effect on my life that permeates every aspect of it.

posted May 22, 2015 11:06 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Delilah423:
Good grief, when do you think feminism began? I'm past my SECOND Saturn return and I can assure you it was in full swing 50+ years ago and it was not even something new then.

Feminism has absolutely nothing to do with whether someone is or is not warm and kind. Nor do all (or even most, in my experience) "old men" treat women with respect.

The prevalence of rape and violence toward women is real, also not new, and most definitely not made-up. As someone who was date-raped in an era before the concept was coined, and who didn't speak about it to another living soul for almost 20 years, I can assure you life is better for victims when it is something that can be discussed.

I don't know how to say this, other than bluntly: you are confusing correlation with causation and blaming women in general without understanding the concept or history of feminism.

Should we go back to an era (not so long ago, actually) when women could not vote, could not own property, had little to no legal standing on their own and became essentially the property of their husband when they married?

---

posted May 22, 2015 11:12 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Odette:
I don't see (or feel) any extra negativity from men towards women - or from women towards men.
I can't say "times have changed" in this regard!

Upper/middle class Western people were considerably more polite in a public setting - a few decades ago (both male and female) but politeness is surface and mostly meaningless.
So yeah, maybe in the 1930s - the girl whose car you fixed would've smiled at you and batted her lashes (just to be polite) but that doesn't mean she would've liked you any more or less than she did, at present.

I can't say I like that people are ruder than they used to be, but it's definitely not gender-specific.
The things teenagers say these days occasionally scare me also! But again, it is absolutely not just female teenagers. Do you know any male teenagers?

---

posted May 22, 2015 11:15 AM            

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Want to Read Simple, Fun,Sexy Articles on Astrology? Check Me Out, DUDE.

posted May 22, 2015 11:17 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Odette:
^ Reading that it made me wonder...
AG - Do you believe women were oppressed in the past? And do you think feminism served a positive purpose at some stage in human history?

---

posted May 22, 2015 11:27 AM            

quote:

---

What do I mean when I say they exxagerate how common sexual assault is? I mean I don't believe for a second that 1 in 4 women is a victim of sexual assault. Why? Because if that was the case multiple women in my family should have been victims of it and none of them have.

---

At least 1 in 4 women that I know were assaulted. By that I am including being groped, harassed, pinned down, held someplace against their will....all of that.

edit

Most harassment is done at the hands of serial offenders. No one is saying there's a creepy guy out there for every innocent woman...but one creepy guy can harm a lot of people.

posted May 22, 2015 11:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aquaguy91:
Yes,
But....... So were men! Feminism tries to paint this picture of women slaving away while the men were having a good old time and this just wasn't the case! Men were forced to work unsafe jobs and toil away and fight and die in wars they didn't agree with. Men were also expected to let women get on the life boats while they drowned. In the old days everyone made sacrifices. I really hate how feminists re-write history and forget to mention all of that stuff.

---

How were women oppressed in the past (in your view)?
Throughout history, what things (that were done against women, or that affected their daily lives) - are you personally most outraged about?

posted May 22, 2015 11:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Odette:
How were women oppressed in the past (in your view)?
Throughout history, what things (that were done against women, or that affected their daily lives) - are you personally most outraged about?

I understand that life was difficult for men also.
But I'm interested in your opinion on women's issues!
You said "yes", but didn't you list specifics.

---

posted May 23, 2015 12:01 AM            

^^^^^ ... I bet feminist organizations are paying off these famous women to be their spokespeople.

-----------------------

Likely, yes.

Swift: "I think that when I used to say, ‘Oh, feminism’s

not really on my radar,’ it was because when I was just

seen as a kid, I wasn’t as threatening."

Which is funny because of the lengths she (or whomever

is profiting from her) is going to, to shed her Good

(if not somewhat flighty) Girl image.

Now she's

"... a nightmare dressed like a daydream"

Not sure how having a screw loose is better, but

it certainly is 'threatening'.. in its own fatal

attraction kind of way. :/

-

From Maxim:

"She is the latest high-profile celebrity to address

the importance of feminism after Harry Potter star

Emma Watson and Hunger Games actor Jennifer Lawrence

also discussed the movement."

The author in the link they included calls them all

"Fame-inists."

Which is a good point- they are.

------------------
Nothing is permanent in this wicked world; not even our troubles.

posted May 23, 2015 12:16 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by teasel:
Right. Why would a young woman want to bring important topics to light to talk about, whilst they have the ability to do so? Why would they possibly want to help other women, and the girls who are now growing up, or are yet to be born? Silly me, they just want attention.

---

posted May 23, 2015 12:42 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by teasel:
Right. Why would a young woman want to bring important topics to light to talk about, whilst they have the ability to do so? Why would they possibly want to help other women, and the girls who are now growing up, or are yet to be born? Silly me, they just want attention.

---

I think the point is that it has been co-opted for

personal gain.

------------------
Nothing is permanent in this wicked world; not even our troubles.

posted May 23, 2015 01:54 AM            

Emma Watson, however, is legitimate.

AG, what sort of conjecture would you like female stars to talk about? Would you rather them talk about being stay at home moms who have no say in financial and family matters and talk about pleasing their men 24/7? Are we simply to not discuss the fact we make less money than men, live in a rape-friendly culture, and are more prone to domestic violence? In theory, we should not use a platform to raise awareness for societal issues and rather just sit back and look pretty?

I'm a little confused as to what you actually want in a woman, because you find negativity in almost every single aspect of a woman's life, and there is always something 'wrong' to be blamed. I think you should reconsider your attitude, because it is extremely negative.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Odette:
I don't see (or feel) any extra negativity from men towards women - or from women towards men.
I can't say "times have changed" in this regard!

Upper/middle class Western people were considerably more polite in a public setting - a few decades ago (both male and female) but politeness is surface and mostly meaningless.
So yeah, maybe in the 1930s - the girl whose car you fixed would've smiled at you and batted her lashes (just to be polite) but that doesn't mean she would've liked you any more or less than she did, at present.

I can't say I like that people are ruder than they used to be, but it's definitely not gender-specific.
The things teenagers say these days occasionally scare me also! But again, it is absolutely not just female teenagers. Do you know any male teenagers?

---

Yup! People can be rude in general, and that is not a gender specific entity.

I completely agree with your thoughts on the word feminist as well.

quote:

---

Originally posted by SaturnFan:
aquaguy,

I've disagreed with you before on the subject of feminism, but I agree with you on the examples you've given here. This is pure misandry, and a corrupt and perverted version of what feminism should be about.

In fact, the very word 'feminism' is not accurate, since in its core this movement is about equality. Definitely not about one gender being superior to the other.

In Western countries, women have been oppressed in the past, and are still subjected to gender discrimination, though in a lighter form. But men are subjected to different types of discrimination and pressure as well. One gender denying the difficulties which the other gender has faced/ is facing, only fuels the argument without helping anyone. It's all superficial really, because if women really hated men that much, and men hated women that much, we would have gone extinct as a species long ago.

I feel you've encountered a lot of superficial women, who either do not grasp what feminism is about, or consciously use it to fuel their own ego and feelings of superiority. This doesn't mean feminism is wrong, but as any wide concept it has been misinterpreted by a lot of people. I despise this kind of women because they do more harm to the gender equality cause, than misogynistic men, and are piggyback riding on the efforts of women who had a valid reason to start a movement a few decades ago. I share your frustration with them, but I don't believe the problem is feminism. They're just low-quality people I hope very soon you encounter women in real life who'll show you that the feminist cause can be used in a good way, as it was its original intention.

---

Great points as always!

quote:

---

When I talk about people born "pre-feminism" I'm talking about people that were born before the mid/late 50s. My mom and dad were born in 1958 and they were part of the generation that grew up when feminism really took off. People that were born before that period (prior to the mid/late 50s) still maintained their pre-feminist attitudes and values. So that's what I mean when I say that pre or post feminism, I'm referring to people born before or after that period of time. And yes, I understand that feminism was a factor before that period of time but it really took off during the 60s and 70s.
Yes, sexual assault and violence towards women is and has always been a reality.However, feminism exxagerates how common sexual assault is and makes domestic abuse out to be a one-sided issue when it clearly isn't. What do I mean when I say they exxagerate how common sexual assault is? I mean I don't believe for a second that 1 in 4 women is a victim of sexual assault. Why? Because if that was the case multiple women in my family should have been victims of it and none of them have. Unfortunately, all of the feminist propaganda creates paranoia and makes women believe all men are potential predators that are out to get them. Like I said rape is a reality and always has been but I don't think women in the past were paranoid about it. I think most women understood that most men were good and treated them as such.
No, I do not have a problem with women working, voting,and everything else but I do have a problem with the notion that q woman being a traditional wife and mother is a shameful thing. I think these things should be respected and encouraged.

---

Feminism doesn't say 1 in 4 women are sexually assaulted, research does. Your denial of this directly contributes to a rape-friendly culture. You should go look at college statistics for sexual assault and rape, I think you would be quite stunned to see how prevalent they are across the country. And no, feminists don't conduct these research studies either.

No one has said being a traditional wife or mother is shameful. Women deserve to have options, which part of why the feminist movement was founded. Besides, how do you define a traditional wife or mother? Many women who are feminists actually can fit under the umbrella of a traditional wife or mother.

quote:

---

Originally posted by aquaguy91:
What's funny to me is how we are told by feminism that sexism has always been deeply "ingrained" in society when all the old men (men born pre-feminism) I see treat women with the utmost respect. I have personally seen old men lose all composure when they hear a young man cuss around a woman or say something negative about a woman. It's because these men were raised during a period of time when the typical woman was wonderful and they didn't have anything negative or critical to say about women and they don't understand what younger men are dealing with. This is just further evidence of what I'm talking about. The negativity you see from men towards women today is a backlash to the past several decades of feminism. The dynamic between men and women is completely different to what it was before feminism. As I just illustrated men from that period were/are very happy with their women and respected them and treated them well.

---

Not necessarily, if anything more family issues were swept under the rug and never discussed. A women in DV situation back then was less likely to go to the police about it and get to safety. The dynamic if anything is better, but the dynamic between men and women is impacted by far more things than feminism.