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Author
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Topic: The Slippery Slope
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Faith
Knowflake Posts: 11454
From: Bella's Hair Salon
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted June 28, 2015 02:57 PM
  
quote:
Originally posted by T:
And if you can't bring yourself to bake a cake for a gay person, you are not free.
^^ And this.  IP: Logged |
Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 63258
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted June 28, 2015 03:57 PM
Maybe, you are not free EMOTIONALLY but at least the government didn't do it to you  ------------------
Want to Read Simple, Fun,Sexy Articles on Astrology? Check Me Out, DUDE.
http://www.mychristianpsychic.com/
IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 54585
From: Saturn next to Charmaine
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 28, 2015 04:14 PM
Churches are automatically tax exempt. And churches (in America, at least) will always be tax exempt (as they should be). Do you think the Catholic Church is going to give up their tax exempt status? And whatever applies to large churches, small churches are entitled to, as well. I could start the Church of Saturn today, and it is immediately tax exempt. No one (including the government) has the right to tell me my beliefs are not sincere. Only if churches want donations to be able to be written off the donors' taxes do they need to seek IRS approval. They don't have to be corporations either, although most of them are. Hail Saturn!  IP: Logged |
Voix_de_la_Mer
Knowflake Posts: 1569
From: Rainbows
Registered: Aug 2011
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posted June 28, 2015 07:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
If I am a baker and don't want to bake a cake for a gay couple and I lose my business( which has happened) YOU should worry because one day YOU may want to stand up for your beliefs and the same will happen to you. You can't see it now, but MY loss of freedom is YOUR loss of freedom.
Refusing service on the basis of sexual orientation is discrimination. Discrimination should not be tolerated. Just because someone has "beliefs" does not make them honourable. Some paedophiles *believe* children can consent to sexual intercourse with an adult. Are we limiting their freedom by refusing to grant them this by law?
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PixieJane
Moderator Posts: 6573
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted June 28, 2015 07:50 PM
I just had an intriguing thought...what if the money and passion to fight gay marriage in order to "stop pedophilia" were to instead go to help children on the streets who are themselves preyed upon by pedophiles and often fleeing sexual abuse at home?And many abortions are FORCED on them by pimps and sexual abusers, so by fighting to create a safe place for them where they can get genuine help (as opposed to cultish indoctrination and/or exposing them to further abuse by clergymen and the like) can stop pregnancies and abortions as a matter of course in stopping the sexual exploitation and abuse, and they can gain some positive PR for a change rather than alienating so many (including many fellow Christians who see the Christian Right as modern day Pharisees that Jesus would condemn), including in making a positive impression on those they help who were running from abusive Christians (but now they can see that they're not all bad). One "downside" is that many runaways (and throwaways) are gay. Plenty of Christian charities refuse to help them at all. Though if they really believe (which most do not) that being gay is a "choice" then they should see it as an opportunity for them to make a different choice (just ban heterosexual unions right along with homosexual saying they need to focus on themselves, it won't be neat and perfect but it shouldn't be too big of a problem, as long as it's fair to everyone). I like to think that most Americans don't realize that there are usually over a million runaways (and throwaways) on the streets at any given time, many of whom are fleeing terrible circumstances (as being on the streets isn't fun, the few I met who thought it would be an adventure quickly went back to their relatively safe and comfortable homes) and of all the abuse and exploitation going on the streets (including pimping of kids by the state who fine them and turn them loose to turn more tricks to pay the fines, among other things), especially as many Americans rend their garments over child prostitution in third world countries (as if it didn't happen in the US). And yet I wonder if I'm just not being cynical enough since one guy showed me a taped version of COPS in which HPD said there were reports of young men robbing business owners and they were going to put a stop to it only to then do so by pretending to be johns cruising for sex from male teen prostitutes!  (Seriously, the audience didn't realize that it was kids robbing johns rather than having sex with them and that the cops were thus serving and protecting the "business owners" from the kids they were seeking to abuse? Can Americans really be that stupid? Or are they fully aware of what's going on and silently support it?) More on it (actual children aren't shown in any detail as it's illegal to show kids who have been sexually exploited):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MO_OtB3q-s Though one weakness (and a very common one) of that documentary is that it leaves out that many boys are also being sexually exploited (in case there's any doubt the vast majority sexually exploiting & abusing them are also male) though they typically don't have to worry about pimps the same way girls do (they have other problems to make up for it instead). And also in case it needs to be said, boys turning trick with men aren't necessarily gay (they usually aren't, nor does every gay boy on the streets turn tricks), it's survival sex not lust, just like many girls (including lesbians) can be skeeved out by johns who pay (or say they will) for it. 'Course kids (both genders) get abused and exploited in so many other ways as well. And for those who prefer music and feelings, this is an unusually good song that's not only about kids on the street but actually uses runaways in their vid (but were staying at a runaway shelter at the time), though some things just struck me as wrong (like one single cop over several kids, I don't think I ever seen a cop that didn't want backup first unless the cop was so shady that even he didn't want his fellow corrupt cops knowing what he was up to, which did happen):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az83Eye73dM IP: Logged |
PixieJane
Moderator Posts: 6573
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted June 28, 2015 07:52 PM
^^Intriguing thought, but the obvious fact is that the Christian Right really doesn't give a damn about children, at least not once they've been born, nor about protecting them from actual pedophiles rather than theoretical ones. IP: Logged |
Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 63258
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted June 28, 2015 08:14 PM
For the thousandth, millionth time. It is not about homosexuals, children, or the fake churches ripping people off. It is about the loss of your freedoms.------------------
Want to Read Simple, Fun,Sexy Articles on Astrology? Check Me Out, DUDE.
http://www.mychristianpsychic.com/
IP: Logged |
Faith
Knowflake Posts: 11454
From: Bella's Hair Salon
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted June 28, 2015 08:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
Churches are automatically tax exempt. And churches (in America, at least) will always be tax exempt (as they should be). Do you think the Catholic Church is going to give up their tax exempt status? And whatever applies to large churches, small churches are entitled to, as well. I could start the Church of Saturn today, and it is immediately tax exempt. No one (including the government) has the right to tell me my beliefs are not sincere. Only if churches want donations to be able to be written off the donors' taxes do they need to seek IRS approval. They don't have to be corporations either, although most of them are. Hail Saturn!
There are conditions:
http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Exemption-Requirements-Section-501%28c%29%283%29-Organizations As I was saying, if a church tries to influence elections, it loses tax exempt status. So American churches hobble themselves when it comes to influencing government. So why should they complain?  To whom ye render yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are whom ye obey.
-Romans 6:16 IP: Logged |
Faith
Knowflake Posts: 11454
From: Bella's Hair Salon
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted June 28, 2015 09:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
For the thousandth, millionth time. It is not about homosexuals, children, or the fake churches ripping people off. It is about the loss of your freedoms.
Freedom huh?  So, what about the government stealing your freedoms more overtly? What about the war on terror becoming the war on You, after you've happily, non-sheepily  due to your inculcated dread of Islamofascism, agreed to fund the military industrial complex to infinity, with QE to infinity, rendering our currency vulnerable to collapse even while the "emergency" contingency plans to corral and "care for" people in the event of total economic breakdown are on public record, and the very weapons ostensibly designed for the war on terror can be used against the citizenry thanks to the reversal of Posse Comitatus? What about that?
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Randall
Webmaster Posts: 54585
From: Saturn next to Charmaine
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 28, 2015 09:14 PM
There are no conditions on churches. Churches are automatically exempt from paying taxes just by being a church. Only if seeking tax exempt status from the IRS do those restrictions apply.IP: Logged |
Faith
Knowflake Posts: 11454
From: Bella's Hair Salon
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted June 28, 2015 09:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
There are no conditions on churches. Churches are automatically exempt from paying taxes just by being a church. Only if seeking tax exempt status from the IRS do those restrictions apply.
Should I have given you time to revise this? It makes no sense. IP: Logged |
teasel
Knowflake Posts: 7022
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 28, 2015 09:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
For the thousandth, millionth time. It is not about homosexuals, children, or the fake churches ripping people off. It is about the loss of your freedoms.
I haven't seen anyone lose their freedom. I have seen a lot of people gain the freedom to marry, over the last few days. I agree with Pixie - it would be nice to see all of that money used where it could really help people.
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Randall
Webmaster Posts: 54585
From: Saturn next to Charmaine
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 28, 2015 09:42 PM
Actually, I need to stay more up to date on things. The way it used to work is that a church needed official recognition if donations were to be deductible, but they were exempt from taxation by merely being a church. A Tax Court case changed things, or rather clarified them. The way it now works is that churches are automatically both exempt from taxation and deductible without requesting recognition. But the caveat (as determined by that case) is that even though churches are automatically exempt from all filing and reporting requirements, that does not exempt them from the requirements of that chapter. In short, you're right. They can't participate in political elections. If they do, they must pay an excise tax on the portion associated with the election. They cannot lose their tax exempt status for doing so, unlike recognized organizations. They would simply pay an excise tax on income raised for that purpose.IP: Logged |
Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 63258
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted June 28, 2015 09:46 PM
Faith
This is what I think. There is little we can do about the machinations of dishonest politicians. However, when they want to USE us, the little people, at least we can educate ourselves and not be dumb sheep.
Does it really change anything? No, but it has some dignity with it. ------------------
Want to Read Simple, Fun,Sexy Articles on Astrology? Check Me Out, DUDE.
http://www.mychristianpsychic.com/
IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 54585
From: Saturn next to Charmaine
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 28, 2015 09:57 PM
Basically, that case settled that even though a church does not apply for recognition, it is still bound by the chapter. Most unfortunate. But it also settled that donations are deductible even if not recognized (most fortunate), providing the requirements are met and it's a church, not simply a religious organization.IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 54585
From: Saturn next to Charmaine
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 28, 2015 10:16 PM
Interesting that they call it an excise tax, because churches cannot pay income tax. Excise taxes are not subject to the same IRS enforcement as income taxes-- just like the Obamacare penalties.IP: Logged |
PixieJane
Moderator Posts: 6573
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted June 28, 2015 10:55 PM
I thought it was time to repeat the Religious Liberty Test:1. My religious liberty is at risk because:
A) I am not allowed to go to a religious service of my own choosing.
B) Others are allowed to go to religious services of their own choosing. 2. My religious liberty is at risk because:
A) I am not allowed to marry the person I love legally, even though my religious community blesses my marriage.
B) Some states refuse to enforce my own particular religious beliefs on marriage on those two guys in line down at the courthouse. 3. My religious liberty is at risk because:
A) I am being forced to use birth control.
B) I am unable to force others to not use birth control. 4. My religious liberty is at risk because:
A) I am not allowed to pray privately.
B) I am not allowed to force others to pray the prayers of my faith publicly. 5. My religious liberty is at risk because:
A) Being a member of my faith means that I can be bullied without legal recourse.
B) I am no longer allowed to use my faith to bully gay kids with impunity. 6. My religious liberty is at risk because:
A) I am not allowed to purchase, read or possess religious books or material.
B) Others are allowed to have access books, movies and websites that I do not like. 7. My religious liberty is at risk because:
A) My religious group is not allowed equal protection under the establishment clause.
B) My religious group is not allowed to use public funds, buildings and resources as we would like, for whatever purposes we might like. 8. My religious liberty is at risk because:
A) Another religious group has been declared the official faith of my country.
B) My own religious group is not given status as the official faith of my country. 9. My religious liberty is at risk because:
A) My religious community is not allowed to build a house of worship in my community.
B) A religious community I do not like wants to build a house of worship in my community. 10. My religious liberty is at risk because:
A) I am not allowed to teach my children the creation stories of our faith at home.
B) Public school science classes are teaching science. Scoring key: If you answered "A" to any question, then perhaps your religious liberty is indeed at stake. You and your faith group have every right to now advocate for equal protection under the law. But just remember this one little, constitutional, concept: this means you can fight for your equality -- not your superiority. If you answered "B" to any question, then not only is your religious liberty not at stake, but there is a strong chance that you are oppressing the religious liberties of others. This is the point where I would invite you to refer back to the tenets of your faith, especially the ones about your neighbors. IP: Logged |
Faith
Knowflake Posts: 11454
From: Bella's Hair Salon
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted June 28, 2015 11:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
In short, you're right. They can't participate in political elections. If they do, they must pay an excise tax on the portion associated with the election. They cannot lose their tax exempt status for doing so, unlike recognized organizations. They would simply pay an excise tax on income raised for that purpose.
Not sure what you're talking about. My understanding has been: quote:
Charitable organizations, including churches, are generally prohibited from participating in the political process. In general, no organization, including a church, may qualify for IRC section 501(c)(3) status if a substantial part of its activities is attempting to influence legislation, known as lobbying; a church risks losing its 501(c)(3) status if it becomes involved in substantial lobbying activities. A church lobbies when its leadership contacts, or if it urges the public to contact, legislators with the intent to sway their votes. What constitutes substantial depends on the circumstances and a variety of factors are considered, including the time and money spent by the church on lobbying.
http://info.legalzoom.com/can-church-lose-its-501c-status-21743.html For a church to ask its members to try and influence legislation seems like a harmless activity, as it's arguably a social responsibility, for the moral faction to try and affect the laws under which it operates ~ yet ~ they can lose tax exempt status for doing so.
IP: Logged |
Faith
Knowflake Posts: 11454
From: Bella's Hair Salon
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted June 28, 2015 11:01 PM
Pixie  IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 54585
From: Saturn next to Charmaine
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 28, 2015 11:17 PM
Churches can lobby as long as it's not substantial. That's pretty vague. I wonder if there have been any cases ruled as substantial thus far.IP: Logged |
aquaguy91
Moderator Posts: 11479
From: Wankety Wankerson
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted June 28, 2015 11:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Bluejay:
I don't offer them anymore understanding or compassion than I do snakes (which I don't like). I clearly explained what I meant in the last two posts. I think they should feel safe to come forward so they can get the help they need and people are aware of them so they can keep their children away from them. That would benefit everyone,especially the children. [/B][/QUOTE]My comment wasn't really about child molesters. I acknowledged the fact that it is a sickness and a complulsion that they deal with, although I'm not excusing their behavior either. My point was that you constantly criticize women with such bitterness and disdain, yet you seem to offer a lot of compassion for the motives of pedophiles. I was simply saying that you should offer women the same understanding and empathy when it comes to their motives. [/B][/QUOTE]
I do have compassion for women. Just tonight I chewed out one of my co-workers because he got one of our female co-workers in trouble by snitching on her because she broke a minor (and stupid) rule.
IP: Logged |
T
Knowflake Posts: 11723
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 29, 2015 12:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by aquaguy91:
I do have compassion for women. Just tonight I chewed out one of my co-workers because he got one of our female co-workers in trouble by snitching on her because she broke a minor (and stupid) rule.
Wow. Amazing. What a hero. Boring!!! At least you haven't topped the worst comment i've seen on the forum here, by Randall himself. About how all women deep down really want to be "led" by a man. According to him, all women want to be "led" by someone as all knowing and wise as him or any man. I didnt realize that was such a Christian belief until I heard another hillbilly say it on a show i watched recently. Then, it made more sense. I can't wait to get out of the south. IP: Logged |
T
Knowflake Posts: 11723
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 29, 2015 12:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
Love is an act.
There is nothing loving about stating to anyone that they cannot marry a consenting other.This is actually a perfect reason to reject the bible. Any book that dictates what one should love disables that person on so many levels. It is horrific.
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
^^This
Ditto.  IP: Logged |
aquaguy91
Moderator Posts: 11479
From: Wankety Wankerson
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted June 29, 2015 12:44 AM
quote:
Originally posted by T:
Wow. Amazing. What a hero.
^^^ This is exactly what I was talking about when I said you are a smartass.
And for the record, everyone here says I am a hateful misogynist but I wouldn't have given a sh*t about this guy trying to get her in trouble if I hated women. I may have my issues with women but I do not try to create trouble for them or harm them in any way and I will not like it when I see someone else doing it either. But this doesn't just apply to women. I would do the same for other men. I am a live and let live kind of guy and don't f*ck with people unless they give me a good reason to. I can't stand the kind of people that will sh*t on you to look good and get ahead. There's some things that you just don't do.... And that's one of those things. IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 54585
From: Saturn next to Charmaine
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 29, 2015 12:45 AM
Are you breaking our truce?And yes, most women want a man who is a leader...who gently takes the lead in the relationship. IP: Logged |
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