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Author Topic:   What holds more weight - natal synastry or progressed synastry?
margym0o
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posted October 09, 2014 04:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for margym0o     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just wondering if it's wise to rely more on the progressed synastry than the natal when evaluating a relationship?

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Nine
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posted October 09, 2014 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Progressed Synastry.

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Aubyanne
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posted October 09, 2014 05:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aubyanne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Both.

Natal is the raw potential. Progressed provides the timing, and can be the 'flipping' of a switch that's there natally.

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Ceridwen
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posted October 09, 2014 05:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aubyanne:
Both.

Natal is the raw potential. Progressed provides the timing, and can be the 'flipping' of a switch that's there natally.


You took the words out of my mouth

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mir
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posted October 09, 2014 06:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mir     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Nine:
Progressed Synastry.

And u took them out of mine ;D


Well, it's very simple; we can have the best synastry in the world, but without some outstanding progressions chances are almost zero that something is coming out of it.

.. unless ofcourse you would like to keep it on the 'astral plane' only

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Bluejay
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posted October 09, 2014 08:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bluejay     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have only recently looked at progressions, but I'm really becoming fascinated by them.

I had a pretty remarkable synastry with my ex, and found that progressions definitely played a role when our relationship started. We had known each other for over a year at that point, and there were several progressed aspects in our natals and synastry when we actually became a couple. It was the spark that lit the fuse so to speak, because until that point we were just friends. We were together since 1999, but transiting Uranus has been hovering back and forth over his NMoon and DC. We didn't make it through that one, so transits count too! Ugh, it's nearly impossible to have everything line up just right!!! I'll be obsessively running charts for the rest of my life!

I have a progressed synastry question....onto the next one

How significant would a man's PVenus conjunct his NSun, opposite his retrograde PMars be? Mars will go direct in the next few months too. His PVenus will be right on my IC, and PMars on my MC. My PSun is now conjunct my NMars, approaching a trine to his NVenus by 2 degrees. Also my PMars and PMoon are nearing conjunction, and are both sextile my NSun. My Solar arc Venus is approaching a conjunction to my NSun by less than 2 degrees. My PVenus is now exact quincunx his NVenus.

These aspects will all be perfecting in the near future. Could this finally be my chance, since I've fought with my feelings for this man for 9 years? I last spoke to him a little over a year ago and him and his wife were in counseling, contemplating divorce. Our relationship has always been strictly platonic, but there is mutual attraction. Transiting Uranus is headed for his NVenus too, just 3 degrees from my Ex's NMoon. I could see this being the final blow for his marriage, if it's not already over.

Some opinions please. Should I call him to see what he's up to...like yesterday?

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Aubyanne
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posted October 09, 2014 08:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aubyanne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My best experience thus far:

We have some strong synastry; very intimate, sexual, and transformative.

We met with his pMOON conjunct my pSUN.
We began our relationship with his pSUN conjunct nVENUS, 0°; and my pVENUS conjunct nSUN, 0° and his nMARS, 3°, applying.

I'm in no hurry for my pVENUS to conjunct it exactly! I'll say this, though. It'll be within the next few years. And we'll be shooting ALL that time.

Enjoy the chemistry, folks!

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Aubyanne
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posted October 09, 2014 08:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aubyanne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ceridwen:

You took the words out of my mouth


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Nine
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posted October 09, 2014 09:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mir:
And u took them out of mine ;D


Well, it's very simple; we can have the best synastry in the world, but without some outstanding progressions chances are almost zero that something is coming out of it.

.. unless ofcourse you would like to keep it on the 'astral plane' only


People grow and change, natal-to-natal doesn't take that into account.

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Selenite
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posted October 09, 2014 10:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Selenite     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What about someone's progressed to the other person's natal?

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starmoon
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posted October 09, 2014 10:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for starmoon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
they say to look at progressed for the real answers to a relationship, but personally i don't, just natal.

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margym0o
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posted October 09, 2014 10:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for margym0o     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So then a natally so-so synastry can actually turn into something better if you factor in progressions? How does a newbie begin to analyze this?

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mir
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posted October 10, 2014 12:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mir     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
**How significant would a man's PVenus conjunct his NSun, opposite his retrograde PMars be?**

Very. And if the partner doesn’t have any strong connection to it - or at least something outstanding apart of it - then it might very well be the kiss of death between them.

Again I cite the big expert Westran himself;

quote:
If you have a personal progression like pSun conjunct pVenus at an appropriate time in your life, you often find your popularity or sociability rises. Its a time when you feel valued and valuable and if your current partner doesn't appear to value you highly enough, you end up looking for someone who does.


**My PSun is now conjunct my NMars, approaching a trine to his NVenus by 2 degrees.**

This ^ sounds promising for the time it may last.

I also suspect that you ran out of progressed goodies with your Ex.


Selenite@ That also falls under the category ‘progressed synastry’.

Margym0o@ So-so synastry is very subjective, very personal. Not much consensus about it.

Here a link, to get some feeling with progressed synastry;
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/012875.html

And another link with lots of *GREAT* info;
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum24/HTML/207655.html

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Ceridwen
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posted October 10, 2014 03:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aubyanne:
My best experience thus far:


I think that is the trick.

Strong synastry as background and then triggering progressions to bring it into manifestations.


Strong progressions without the strong synastry in the background (unless the progressions are perpetual), are what temporary affairs are made of, and when they fade you are often left wondering: "What the heck did i ever see in the other person?"

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Ceridwen
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posted October 10, 2014 03:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Nine:
People grow and change, natal-to-natal doesn't take that into account.


They do change on the basis of their natals though.

IMO one without the other is just half of the picture.

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Ceridwen
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posted October 10, 2014 03:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by margym0o:
So then a natally so-so synastry can actually turn into something better if you factor in progressions? How does a newbie begin to analyze this?

check p Venus in applying conjunction, trine, opposition to n or p Sun, Venus, Mars.
Do the same with the p Sun, Venus, Mars to n Venus.

Chck for conjunction, square, opposition of pMoon to p or n Sun, or of p Sun to n Moon, and of course also if you have natally a Venus-Sun or Venus-Mars-progression, which puts you into the right frame to experience and receive and give love and relationship.


Also check for the progressed squares of Sun and Venus - they say that prevents a relationship from forming. (but people are different, some might even like the square dynamic; other might simply have outstanding other progressions at the same time.).


Also check for sextile, quintile and quindeile - these might not be such conventional aspects as the trine or conjunction, but hey do come up, too, and they are quite intriguing aspects.

As well have a look at Sun, Moon, Venus, Mars to n or p ASC-DESC (Westran sais to treat them like a Mars or Venus-point).

Personally I would suggerst to also check for the rulers of the natal 1st and 7th house, if they are coming into contact through progression, and putting you into a relationship-frame-of-mind.


I have found a lot of Venus-Jupiter-progressions at the start of relationships, when I was analyzing those of close friends and family. (conjunction, opposition, square mostly).

However, in all these relationship either one of the partners had Jupiter ruling an angle or dispositing Venus.
I`ve also seen that crop up in the progressions of Jude Law and Sienna Miller through their relatinohip, and he has ASC and Venus in Jupiter-ruled - Sagittarius.
So maybe the occurrence of Jupiter is not a generic marker but coming up in these cases through his function as ruler of an angle (usually ASC or DESC) or Venus.

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Ceridwen
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posted October 10, 2014 03:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"If you have a personal progression like pSun conjunct pVenus at an appropriate time in your life, you often find your popularity or sociability rises. Its a time when you feel valued and valuable and if your current partner doesn't appear to value you highly enough, you end up looking for someone who does."


I currently have had p Venus sextile n Sun (0°05s) and even that "little" aspect seems to work like a "charm", literally. At least in my case it did/ does. A lot of positive appreciative feedback, poularity and social reception, suppot.
Rather nice actually.
It might come with a shift in perspect though, and looking differently on myself than before.

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LeeLoo2014
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posted October 10, 2014 07:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I always find this question awkward (not that it's not a good thing that you asked it) since the progressed synastry is the natal synastry symbolically progressed in time
I subscribe to what Aubyanne and Ceri said and I'd like to add a few thoughts.

First of all, in my experience so far, all charts between a couple reflect the same story: if you look at synastry, composites, progressions, transits, meeting charts, Persona charts, etc you won't find an affair in one chart, a "buddy" type relationship in another and a great love story in the other.

So this approach is always awkward to me: people who say the composite is more revealing, or the composite doesn't matter, only the synastry, or transits or progressions tell you everything you want to know, or transits or progressions don't matter.

The same story is told in all these charts from various points of view.

I think this is a research trap. To give the example of a giant, Freud discovered the importance of sex in human behavior in an era of taboo towards sex and then all through his life tried to explain everything through sex and only a short time before his death he realized he was wrong. Perhaps it didn't help that he was fixed (this does not diminish his enormous contribution, however).

Just because we're more attracted to studying a particular field in astrology such as transits doesn't mean everything in astrology can be explained ONLY by transits and the rest is random and subjective. This is a real research trap in all fields: turning a specific limited discovery into a general rule.

In my experience, bad, so-so and good synastry are NOT subjective and disputable. This is easily verifiable if you study a batch of let's say 100 established couples (for example world known): you will see they all have good synastries, with many "traditional" connections (the logic tells us there will be probably 1 or 2 exceptions, which I haven't seen yet, but my experience is limited, so I assume one day I'll see one of those). You will see 90% good synastry and 10% still good but presenting a particular challenge such as an unaspected planet or a tense, painful combination they need to overcome. The fact is couples have connective synastries.

If someone claims a progressed synastry can turn a bad, disconnected synastry into a "couple" relationship, that someone needs to produce a large amount of couples with bad synastries but good progressions. This hasn't happened yet and I suspect it won't

Nah, for now I think I can be pleased with 4: 4 established couples with bad synastries but good progressions.

Can anyone post them?

------------------

I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

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mir
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posted October 10, 2014 01:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mir     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lee dear, take this from a fixed nature;

Analysing the basics without taking into account the ever-changing nature of life itself (progressions) is counting on nothing.

On the other hand, the progressed analysis ALWAYS takes the basics into account and with that the ever-changing nature of life itself.

ME fixed?

Ok Lee, from now on it’s time to add the progressions to all your analyses on board here. My motherly Moon on your MC loves to see some progress in this matter ;D


Now mommie is going further with Kurt & Goldie.

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margym0o
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posted October 10, 2014 02:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for margym0o     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So would it be fair to say that the natal synastry is sort of the "steady base" and the progressions either strengthen or weaken the base? Or do the progressions sort of become the "new base" as time goes on? (if that makes sense lol)

Only reason I'm curious is because the progressive synastry with my SO right now is far superior to our natal synastry. Our relationship dynamic I feel is constantly changing and is improving the longer we are together.

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LeeLoo2014
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posted October 10, 2014 02:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mir:

Ok Lee, from now on it’s time to add the progressions to all your analyses on board here. My motherly Moon on your MC loves to see some progress in this matter ;D



LOL why would I do that when we're such a great team? You want me to do EVERYTHING!!!???

Seriously now, folks, good progressions + bad synastry - affairs when you wake up and say: "who the hell is this Donkey" or unrequited love. We don't want that, do we?

But...listen to mutable Mommy Mir hehehe and always check progressions! Although nobody does them better than her

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

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LeeLoo2014
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posted October 10, 2014 02:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by margym0o:
So would it be fair to say that the natal synastry is sort of the "steady base" and the progressions either strengthen or weaken the base? Or do the progressions sort of become the "new base" as time goes on? (if that makes sense lol)

Only reason I'm curious is because the progressive synastry with my SO right now is far superior to our natal synastry. Our relationship dynamic I feel is constantly changing and is improving the longer we are together.



Margy, you don't have a bad synastry, who told you that? I'll answer you on your thread.

I see progressions and transits as biorhythms, the window for certain activities/ a focus: there are progressions for falling in love, for marriage, for making babies, for traveling the world, for building a home or a business together, etc. everything a relationship is about.

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

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Nine
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posted October 10, 2014 05:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mir:
Lee dear, take this from a fixed nature;

Analysing the basics without taking into account the ever-changing nature of life itself (progressions) is counting on nothing.

On the other hand, the progressed analysis ALWAYS takes the basics into account and with that the ever-changing nature of life itself.


Absolutely!!

quote:
So would it be fair to say that the natal synastry is sort of the "steady base" and the progressions either strengthen or weaken the base? Or do the progressions sort of become the "new base" as time goes on? (if that makes sense lol)

I'll agree that the natal chart is like a steady base. Progressions neither weakens or strengthens that base. What progressions show is WHERE & WHAT your CURRENT needs are.

quote:
Only reason I'm curious is because the progressive synastry with my SO right now is far superior to our natal synastry. Our relationship dynamic I feel is constantly changing and is improving the longer we are together.

The natal chart is the same whether you're a baby, in kindergarten, teenager, 20-something, etc. Very few of us have had the same people in our lives through all those phases. True, the natal CHART will show our proclivities. However, those relationships that endure must engage the progressed chart, and change with it. A person who makes contact with our natal chart alone, but not the progressed won't be around for long - we'll outgrow them.

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Ceridwen
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posted October 10, 2014 06:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It`s not "either" or "or" for me. It`s both.

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LeeLoo2014
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posted October 10, 2014 06:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't get it, Mir and Nine. The progressed synastry is THAT particular synastry...progressed!

What is the controversy here? Who said progressions are not important or separate from the synastry? Not me lol

But my question was: are you suggesting a relationship (a good one) is possible with a bad synastry and supposedly good progressions, whatever that means?

If so, could you please post at least one two examples for discussion? It would be much more helpful than just theorizing back and forth.

Second question: how do you define good, connective progressions? Westran shown Sun/Venus/ASC as one possible marker, he did not exclude, however, other possible markers for people "getting together" that we don't know of, because his research focuses on Sun/Venus/Mars/ASC. To my knowledge, so far, extensive research on Sun/Moon, Moon/Saturn (for marriage), Venus/Moon/Jupiter/Saturn, and especially progressed rulers etc are not documented, so we don't know how they behave. How do you define a good progressed synastry?


And Nine, I don't think that argument works: your natal is the same at birth, kindergarten etc. In a natal chart one can read the possible evolution of an entire life, just by looking at it, all ages are comprised in there - and you add transits and progressions for timing and time frames. They do not MODIFY a natal chart, they offer additional details and a time perspective on that natal. Progressions are like looking through a magnifying glass at the natal. I will give you two examples:
In my current progression, I am entering Scorpio with a full stellium Sun Mercury Venus Mars etc. Just by looking at Venus alone, I remember my Venus in the 8th house, my duad Venus at 16 Scorpio right on my natal MC 16 Scorpio and I understand this current progression actually shows: "it's time for this Venus/MC" -it's age related and it fits - a peaking time for this configuration in my natal.

In his chart, he has Saturn on MC (0) and Mars/Saturn in Gemini with a major mdp in his 9th house and a complicated configuration involving interceptions (one in Cancer) all pointing out, in the natal, that there will be a time when this Saturn vs interception vs Cancer vs Mars/Saturn mdp will be triggered (and on MC, it is usually associated with adult life, 40y) and now it is happening: we met when he had Mars/Saturn conjunct (0) at 0 Cancer on the cusp of his 9th house. And as it happens, he also has his Moon/Saturn transit - not coincidental.

The story already suggested in the natal is happening in progressions/transits at its right time.


I am curious to see the examples that made you consider progressed synastry only.

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

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