posted March 04, 2016 02:43 AM            

"ot a strong Marks chart for him overall..."
Which leads us to the question what exactly consitutes a "strong" Marks chart?

" unless you go into midpoint pictures but I'm not sure they override underaspected and stressed planets."
Override? No.
but if a planet is on the direct midpoint (within 1 degree orb) of two personal planets, they act in union, as if the other two were aspecting the planet on the midpoint.

" Venus is on the IC though"
angular Venus definitely important. does it rule an angle, too?

"But ohh haha.. yeesh. His Marks Sun is square Mars/Neptune AND chiron;"
Ouch.

"It's turning out to be a very tumultuous learning experience of a relationship, and really giving our egos the go around."
this - however- is HIS chart with the relationship, so it only is talking about your effect on him, but not the other way round.
So in this instance it is HIS learning experience, not yours.

"Moon opposite Pluto shows my helpless obsession with him. I've always been just crazy about him i can't seem to help it."
Oh interesting. I wonder if P feels that way about me.

in his Marks chart Pluto in 8th house opposes Moon in 2nd house (4°18), with his Marks-Moon on 20°04 Aries and Marks Pluto on 15°45 Libra.

Well my n Chiron is on 20°02 Aries and Davison SN on 21°56 Aries.

while it probably does not make sense to cross-compare too much, Tr Uranus is sort of bombarding all of it right now. lol

however in general I wouldn`t compare the Marks chart to the natal, at least not before having analyzed the Marks chart in depth on its own.

posted March 04, 2016 03:05 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
Yun,

where did you get the interpretations on Solar Fire?

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posted March 04, 2016 03:42 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
[B]Yun,

"Not a strong Marks chart for him overall..."
Which leads us to the question what exactly consitutes a "strong" Marks chart?

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Indeed. I don't know. It is my insecurity speaking. I think a strong Marks chart might be one which activates key themes the person needs to work on? Orrr... engages the planets in a way that is fulfilling to the natives purpose and raison d'etre... ooorrr i guess it depends on what we're looking for from the relationship.

quote:

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" unless you go into midpoint pictures but I'm not sure they override underaspected and stressed planets."
Override? No.
but if a planet is on the direct midpoint (within 1 degree orb) of two personal planets, they act in union, as if the other two were aspecting the planet on the midpoint.

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Yeah I think a strong midpoint activation is indeed like they're aspecting that planet... And kind of like all three are aspecting each other? But ahh yes I see what you're saying. It is the planet which gives the form and flavour to it.

But no of course they don't override any of the major aspects. Maybe they're of equal importance though in reaching a balanced understanding of the chart...?

quote:

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" Venus is on the IC though"
angular Venus definitely important. does it rule an angle, too?

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Errm no but she is at 2 Libra, so progressed davison Moon is about to hit it... and it's opposite his Moon.

quote:

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"But ohh haha.. yeesh. His Marks Sun is square Mars/Neptune AND chiron;"
Ouch.

"It's turning out to be a very tumultuous learning experience of a relationship, and really giving our egos the go around."
this - however- is HIS chart with the relationship, so it only is talking about your effect on him, but not the other way round.
So in this instance it is HIS learning experience, not yours.

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quote:

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"Moon opposite Pluto shows my helpless obsession with him. I've always been just crazy about him i can't seem to help it."
Oh interesting. I wonder if P feels that way about me.

in his Marks chart Pluto in 8th house opposes Moon in 2nd house (4°18), with his Marks-Moon on 20°04 Aries and Marks Pluto on 15°45 Libra.

Well my n Chiron is on 20°02 Aries and Davison SN on 21°56 Aries.

while it probably does not make sense to cross-compare too much, Tr Uranus is sort of bombarding all of it right now. lol

however in general I wouldn`t compare the Marks chart to the natal, at least not before having analyzed the Marks chart in depth on its own.

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Ah i feel like fluidly cross referencing all the charts all the time just because of the clarity of the synchronocity seems to be asking to be noticed. I very much respect your methodical approach though and it's wise of course to know WHAT you're looking at before you wildly begin to interpret and assume. Cause of course it is another step from looking at compoaite-natal... it's

"How do i feel about how you feel about the relationship?"

But that's totally valid! Lol. I feel tons of stuff about his experience. I think comparing natal to Marks could potentially indicate how well we understand the other person's experience of the relationship... how we experience their experiencing. A strong resonance would be positive i think.

In my case given my South Node on his Mark Sun i react in knee jerk South Node Virgoan ways to his attitude. I was actually reflecting today how remarkably similar the energy is in terms of my fear of judgment in this relationship as my last boyfriend who had his natal Sun on my SN if you recall...

It's not as bad but it's definitely coming up for examination. Then again could be both of their Saturns on my ascendant.

This current guy... i dunno if I've ever feared/desired anybody's bad/good opinion so much... the element of control is very much present. I need to transcend it through believing unequivocally in myself and being true to myself i think.

Orrrr maybe it's not workable. But so far it is doing whatever it's meant to do...

posted March 04, 2016 03:57 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LaceyLeigh:
Nvm, Marks is the midpoints of the Davison compared to the individual.. GAHH, too much work.

Edit: I might try it later..

Edit: So, I actually find the synastry between the Davison and the individual to be pretty interesting, it definitely seems to highlight as well as explain a few things. Haven't found any consistency in the Marks charts, however.

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Im not seeing any validity in the Marks charts either.

At this point i kinda feel like people have come up with so many synastry techniques so that they can tell themselves whatever they want to hear about a particular relationship (or potential one).

.....Want to believe those two people are awful for each other? No fear; if you look long enough you're bound to find one that will tell you exactly that. Want to believe that someone is ideal for you? Search long enough and you'll find a method that says exactly that, too.

posted March 04, 2016 04:45 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by yungang_grotto:
So i have solarfire gold v.8.1.2 or something--i know it's 8 something--I go to Interps > Midpoints Report > Planets to Midpoints and you can set the orb you want

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posted March 04, 2016 09:22 AM            

"think a strong Marks chart"

strong charts (no matter what kind of charts) have very clear concise features. Sharp photos instead of blurry images.
While they may contain several different "theme-complexes", each theme-complex is very coherent in itself.

So...

1.a) planets conjunct the angles (within 5 degrees)

1b) planets within angular houses but to a lesser degree

1c) planets conjunct housecusps which are not the main angles (1° orb)

2) distinct horoscope pattern (for example a bucketchart, especially strong if the handle planet is also opposite another planet; there are other horoscope patterns of course; and even if it is a splay chart, that tells us something, too!)

3) clear dispositor trees, usually with planets in domicile or mutual reception, sometimes you will find more than one, but if only one then you have an end dispositor, definitely a dominant feature in that chart!
Mutual receptions are very strong on its own already (usuing traditional dispositorship)

4) aspectual coherence (esp. aspect configurations, like Yod, T-square, Grand trine, Kite etc.)

5) very close ptolemaic aspects (I`d say not more than 1°30 or 2°00 orb - the wider aspects come into play mostly through aspect configurations and midpoint patterns)

6) personal planets on the direct (conjunction/opposition) close (1°30 at most) midpoint, of other personal planets (including Jupiter-Saturn)

(in a second step also check those midpoints that combine a personal and a transpersonal planet which each other, as these would have strong emotional transformative effects)

Also we are concerned with a chart that describes the effect of a relationship on US, so whenever the 7th or 8th house is very much tenanted, it means that we are very concerned with the other, as the 7th house in this chart describes how we relate to the other (not jsut ANY other, but the specific person with whom we have the basic Davison from which we derived the Marks chart).

A dominance on 1st house, still shows of course how the relationship affects us, but the focus will be put more onto our SELVES, maybe we want to be in control of the relationship, or we tend to isolate ourselves sometimes (with 7th house emphasis, you canīt really do that, as you are so concerned with the other person) or if 2nd house emphasis, we might find a lot of value of ourselves, use the relationship to validate ourselves sometimes even, but of course this comes with a great sense of comfort, too and lastingness. We value the relationship (because we feel validated by it, in nice aspects at least, if there are issues there, it could be the opposite, a relationship that makes us insecure and feel small).

Emphasis on 4th and 5th is what I would check next, as these represent the core of our connection to that other, really reach deep, and how we express our emotions and love, because we feel that spark of chemistry.

posted March 04, 2016 09:47 AM            

"But ahh yes I see what you're saying. It is the planet which gives the form and flavour to it."
Actually I think it is the midpoint that gives the flavour to the planet.

What I like to do is, if I see a close aspect of one personal planet to something else, I look up the midpoints attached to them.

for example let`s say in two Marks chart we find a Venus-Mars-conjunction at zero degree (very rare find )

While in both case of course there will be passionate zing present and possibly longing for developing sexual intimacy, it is always interesting to see which midpoints are working on them from "underneath"

for example in the first case Venus could be conjunct Moon/Jupiter while in the other case it could be conjunct Mercury/Saturn, that will give a different experience of that passion (which will still be there, even in the case with Mercury/Saturn-underneath, just that in that case probably a lot more analyzing will set in and serious thinking and so on; it will not be the same warm fuzzy expansive feeling as if Venus conjuncts Moon/Jupiter), just like a Venus in Sagittarius is different in expressing love as a Venus in Virgo.

"
freaking exhausting actually. But worth it!"
sounds very chironic to me. Emotionally exhausting, because of the constant exposure to all that feels raw and vulnerable, but so worth it.

"Ah i feel like fluidly cross referencing all the charts all the time just because of the clarity of the synchronocity seems to be asking to be noticed."
Yes, I find it important too to see the themes play out through several levels.

However if we do not have a firm grasp on the basic level, everything starts to get blurry and muddled and we lose that grip of understanding.

"it's wise of course to know WHAT you're looking at before you wildly begin to interpret and assume."
that is what I meant.

" I think comparing natal to Marks could potentially indicate how well we understand the other person's experience of the relationship... "
I can see that. Also how their experience and resulting response to it will of course affect our natal in a way, too. With my n Chiron on his Marks-Moon I am of course very sensitive and thin-skinned about how his emotional experience of our connection is.

Interestingly his n Chiron opposes my Marks Moon - so there is this sort of double cross-reference going on.

What I think is also interesting is check for the planets and points in each marks chart that are conjunct and opposite each other (near degrees only) and see how these might relate back to the Davison itself and being triggered by transits.

posted March 04, 2016 12:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:
Yun,

"think a strong Marks chart"

strong charts (no matter what kind of charts) have very clear concise features. Sharp photos instead of blurry images.
While they may contain several different "theme-complexes", each theme-complex is very coherent in itself.

So...

1.a) planets conjunct the angles (within 5 degrees)

1b) planets within angular houses but to a lesser degree

1c) planets conjunct housecusps which are not the main angles (1° orb)

2) distinct horoscope pattern (for example a bucketchart, especially strong if the handle planet is also opposite another planet; there are other horoscope patterns of course; and even if it is a splay chart, that tells us something, too!)

3) clear dispositor trees, usually with planets in domicile or mutual reception, sometimes you will find more than one, but if only one then you have an end dispositor, definitely a dominant feature in that chart!
Mutual receptions are very strong on its own already (usuing traditional dispositorship)

4) aspectual coherence (esp. aspect configurations, like Yod, T-square, Grand trine, Kite etc.)

5) very close ptolemaic aspects (I`d say not more than 1°30 or 2°00 orb - the wider aspects come into play mostly through aspect configurations and midpoint patterns)

6) personal planets on the direct (conjunction/opposition) close (1°30 at most) midpoint, of other personal planets (including Jupiter-Saturn)

(in a second step also check those midpoints that combine a personal and a transpersonal planet which each other, as these would have strong emotional transformative effects)

Also we are concerned with a chart that describes the effect of a relationship on US, so whenever the 7th or 8th house is very much tenanted, it means that we are very concerned with the other, as the 7th house in this chart describes how we relate to the other (not jsut ANY other, but the specific person with whom we have the basic Davison from which we derived the Marks chart).

A dominance on 1st house, still shows of course how the relationship affects us, but the focus will be put more onto our SELVES, maybe we want to be in control of the relationship, or we tend to isolate ourselves sometimes (with 7th house emphasis, you canīt really do that, as you are so concerned with the other person) or if 2nd house emphasis, we might find a lot of value of ourselves, use the relationship to validate ourselves sometimes even, but of course this comes with a great sense of comfort, too and lastingness. We value the relationship (because we feel validated by it, in nice aspects at least, if there are issues there, it could be the opposite, a relationship that makes us insecure and feel small).

Emphasis on 4th and 5th is what I would check next, as these represent the core of our connection to that other, really reach deep, and how we express our emotions and love, because we feel that spark of chemistry.

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Heh you know... I think that was really what I meant! It isn't striking in terms of its coherence/doesn't have too much going on which makes it 'strong' in the ways you've described. Though admittedly i didn't dig very deep. Things like aspect patterns and geometry and angular planets and strong rulers and significant conjunctions i do see at a glance, and it's not there. So that's probably what i meant. Like i said i write without letting what I'm actually thinkong and find out later what i meant... moon/nep 3rd again.

thanks for the brilliant post as usual.

posted March 04, 2016 01:02 PM            

quote:

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" I think comparing natal to Marks could potentially indicate how well we understand the other person's experience of the relationship... "
I can see that. Also how their experience and resulting response to it will of course affect our natal in a way, too. With my n Chiron on his Marks-Moon I am of course very sensitive and thin-skinned about how his emotional experience of our connection is.

Interestingly his n Chiron opposes my Marks Moon - so there is this sort of double cross-reference going on.

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posted March 04, 2016 02:00 PM            

Also you're right. Now that i take a closer look i see there's some... stuff going on... sigh.

posted March 04, 2016 02:37 PM            

Granted, I really need correct angles, but that minor triangle sais it all, it is your coherence in that chart.

There is the Mercury-Jupiter-trine AND the Juno-Neptune-trine, and Pluto is at the perfect place to become the focal planet of both, and luto is on 00 degrees (forgot to mention but last and first degree - always pay attention!).

What totally gets my attention though is how Neptune is on the midpoint of Moon/Jupiter, all in 5th house. The only problem could be that there might be too much idealizm placed on the relationship from his view. Like no relationship could really possibly manifest that perfection and magic he might either see in it or be longing for. But apart from that, warm, spiritual, idealistic, happy.

Plus the exact Mars-Uranus-conjunction squaring Sun, is it easy? No of course not, it`s crazy and crazymaking, but it is very relevant.

Venus is in domicile, according to Blashke when we find a dignified planet in Davison, the strenght of it lies in the house it rules.

Not getting into asteroids (except for Juno and Black MOon Lilith) here, but Amor conjunct Chiron - love making him feel vulnerable and exposed and in a pretty visible way probably, but also opening up an avenue for healing to take place.

The T-square to Mars-Uranus with Sun as Apex-planet does look indeed difficult, but at least not boring. lol

This is a very focused chart though, so I suppose he might experience this relationship as very intense and maybe also demanding of him.

most of the planets seem to be below horizon, so I think a lot of it is going on under the surface, you can`t really see too much of his feelings from an outside perspective, but to say more we would need the exact angles and houes.

Anyway I would look up the midpoints on 9 Sag and Gemini and also those on 11 Virgo-Pisces.
It will show you more about the flavour of that T-square

posted March 04, 2016 05:35 PM            

Can't speak to everything you've said there right now but i really appreciate your perspective and clues!

He is very Lilith oriented... Asteroid Lilith on his ASCENDANT... other stuff Dawn pointed out in the draconic and other factors make her HUGE for him.

I have sort of been like the other woman to him given that he feels this loyalty to this other person. Once upon a time i slept with him while i was in another relationship--the only person i did that with in the 4 years we were together.

He subsequently became frightened of and angry with me for the intensity of my possessiveness/demands on him and for telling him his love was selfish love!

He thought i was a sorceress too for a while

posted March 04, 2016 05:38 PM            

I think for him it's kind of his ideal to be with a Lilith.

he has, not a Madonna ***** complex but...

he has pursued many women who have been in other relationships. I'm likely the only one who succumbed to him so fully lol... probably took him aback.

posted March 04, 2016 05:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Spongebob:

Im not seeing any validity in the Marks charts either.

At this point i kinda feel like people have come up with so many synastry techniques so that they can tell themselves whatever they want to hear about a particular relationship (or potential one).

.....Want to believe those two people are awful for each other? No fear; if you look long enough you're bound to find one that will tell you exactly that. Want to believe that someone is ideal for you? Search long enough and you'll find a method that says exactly that, too.

At this point my stance is this - if you're compatible (or not) it'll show right away in the garden variety synastry and composite, that you wont have to go this far to prove the validity of the bond, if it's right.

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Yeah, I like to stick to the basics, as well. I'm not even a huge fan of asteroids either, they can complicate things.

posted March 04, 2016 05:53 PM            

that sounds very much like Lilith, yes, in fact the last years have helped me see her work through the charts more clearly than ever before.

I love Lilith though. I could never be an Eve-character totally. Just not me.

My Marks chart certainly is extremely descriptive of how I am affected by our connection, too, even though I am still in the process of gathering data.

posted March 04, 2016 06:02 PM            

But i can tell you that that Mars/Uranus is conjunct the vertex in the Marks chart (as well as his natal Jupiter/Uranus which is huge.. forcing him to face and deal with the energy of this point in a huge way).

My midpoint stellium falls across 10 Sag, really a lot concentrated there, including Moon/Pluto and some other stuff.

More in a bit

posted March 04, 2016 06:07 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
Yun,

that sounds very much like Lilith, yes, in fact the last years have helped me see her work through the charts more clearly than ever before.

I love Lilith though. I could never be an Eve-character totally. Just not me.

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Yeah she's cool

quote:

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My Marks chart certainly is extremely descriptive of how I am affected by our connection, too, even though I am still in the process of gathering data.

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